SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

[Sig]

nope it dosnt

[/quote]

You’re not being given all of the information by PRmerger in that out of context question she poses.

But we’ll get to that later.

**1 Jn 3:9

Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 Jn 5:18

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…**Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, FutureCatholic1, and onenow1?

If so, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are not born again. You never have been. You can’t be, ever. You sin.

Bummer, eh?

 

[onenow1]

1 Jn 3:9

Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 Jn 5:18

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, PR?

If so, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are not born again. You never have been. You can’t be, ever. You sin.

Bummer, eh?

:shrug:One more time Sig.Here:>2John1: 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that you may not LOSE what you have worked for, but may WIN a full reward.

The above verse disagrees with your theology Sig, the lady is a believer and St.John is warning of loss. Do not forget post # 270.

Peace

 

[Odell]

No.

You said this…

I’ve told you, Odell, the “he was sanctified…” refers to Jesus, who was set apart. It can’t be unbelievers, because they are not sanctified, and it can’t be believers because they will never perish

“It can’t be believers” (“It” pronoun) Referring to sanctification (antecedent noun)
To which the pronoun “it” is referring to. Your comment was referring to sanctification in regard to this passage and how “It” cannot be belivers because believers do not fall. That’s a mute point if “it” pronoun referring to sanctification (antecedent pronoun) has nothing to do with believers. I think you messed up!

For one thing Odell, the passage is speaking in the singular, and not in the plural. It seems you missed that. The only one who is mentioned as being sanctified is Jesus (v 29).

Your definition of sactification is one who grows in holiness. How is that Jesus was sactified? How is he even sactified when that denotes a process have you not been all along defending that God is pure act!

Look: “Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?” What’s the antecedent noun of the pronoun “he” was sanctified (Jn 17:19, et. al.)?

If this is the case than Jesus is the one who has contemt for the Son of God

“he” (pronoun) the antecedent noun is “the one” “Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due (the one) who has contempt for the Son of God…” “he”
He is referring to the one.

If I was to say. “Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due to “the one” who cheats on a project and has contempt for the others whom “he” was given to help with the project.”

The “he” is referring to “the one” who will receive the punishment.

“The one” cannot be Jesus because Jesus cannot hold contempt for the Son of God.

And you are reading the passage with “Catholic glasses.” What’s your point?

Well yea a 2000 hear tradition supposed to a 500 hear tradition.

And by the way, list those Father’s who were taught by the apostles, and who interpreted this passage, and provide the dates of those Father’s births and deaths, and link their writings for me as well. (Methinks sometimes that phrase, “this passage has been interpreted by those who learned from the apostles,” rolls off the Catholic tongue too easily, and without merit).

newadvent.org/fathers/240220.htm

 

[Ubenedictus]

Please may i ask a favour? These pages are about a hundred (counting the former thread) is it posible for the arguement thus far be presented in a simplified form. I’m writing frm Nigeria and net asses isn’t cheap + reading the entire thead is really time consuming, i’ve spent 30min+ and have not read 15 pages. Thanks in advance

 

[Odell]

You’re not being given all of the information by PRmerger in that out of context question she poses.

But we’ll get to that later.

1 Jn 3:9

Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 Jn 5:18

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, FutureCatholic1, and onenow1?

If so, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are not born again. You never have been. You can’t be, ever. You sin.

Bummer, eh?

So you would agree that Paul was not born of God on his conversion on the Road to Damascus?

Christ revealed himself to Paul on the Road to Damascus. And Paul was converted directly by Jesus(Acts:9)

In (Acts;22) Ananias tells Paul “arise and be baptized, and wash away you sins, invoking His name…and rising up he was baptized.”*

But wait a minute according to you Paul is not born again at his conversion because Paul is still in his sins as revealed by Ananias. Couldn’t Paul just claim I don’t have sin because I’m born again?
Ananias is saying Paul is still in his sins!*

Now if Paul is still in sin after his conversion it should cause you to pause.

 

[FutureCatholic1]

it seams obvious that sig didn’t come with an open mind the only way you can correct what someone thinks is if there are open to the possibility that they might be wrong

 

[Truthstalker]

Please may i ask a favour? These pages are about a hundred (counting the former thread) is it posible for the arguement thus far be presented in a simplified form. I’m writing frm Nigeria and net asses isn’t cheap + reading the entire thead is really time consuming, i’ve spent 30min+ and have not read 15 pages. Thanks in advance

I’ve been lurking. I think there would be heated disagreements over condensing the thread.

I would condense it as…

Tina 100
everyone else 1



Right click on the thread and save it locally. Then you can read it offline.

Truth “I Know Tina Very Well” Stalker

 

[FutureCatholic1]

1 Jn 3:9

Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 Jn 5:18

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, PR?

If so, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are not born again. You never have been. You can’t be, ever. You sin.

Bummer, eh?

John 20:23

 

[FutureCatholic1]

i assume most people on this site own a bible

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

Hey, as one sinner to another … I am really wondering about what Christ had in mind in John 20:19-23

19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.k 21 [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22* And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Do you think He knew that we would sin - even after hearing His Word? I am ashamed to say so - but, I think this is exactly what He had in mind - and here He is offering us a way to repent. And, to think the Pope goes to confession, too…he must surely be a sinner, too! Well, I would like to think that Benedict XVI is in company - after all… we’re there!

So, if Peter was instructed to forgive his neighbor 70 x 7 (Matt 18:22),

And, the Prodigal Son begged his father for forgiveness (Luke 15:21),

And Christ prayed for the men crucifying Him to the cross (Luke 23:34), and

And, while Stephen was being stoned he begged that his murderers be forgiven (Acts 6) -

does this mean that God knows we are sinners and holds out His loving arms in forgiveness?

But, apparently this is not for everyone - Luke 18:10 tells us a story of those who are excluded…and, this is serious.

I guess what we have to be thankful for is that Christ has given us this tremendous Sacrament of Reconciliation - and, He really does expect us to use it!

God bless

Incidentally, I happened to be reading the Scriptures for today and came upon this:

So they made signs, asking his father what he wished him to be called.
He asked for a tablet and wrote, “John is his name,”
and all were amazed.
Immediately his mouth was opened, his tongue freed,
and he spoke blessing God.

It appears that when Zechariah, of his own free will, decided to COOPERATE with God’s will he was then given freedom to speak again.



If Zechariah had decided, of his own free will to write, “His name shall be Zechariah”, in opposition to the will of God, there is no doubt that he would have remained mute, no?

Thus, it is only when we COOPERATE with God’s will that we are saved. If someone, of his own free will, decides to be obdurate, well, then, he remains mute (this is a metaphor, Sig.)

 

[PRmerger]

PR “Who’s happy to let non-Catholics know what the difference is between the phrase “Your Church says” and " says”-merger

To wit:

Great doctor of the Church and Theologian believed this: Ensoulment doesn’t occur until several weeks after conception.

This is not to be confused with the Church’s teaching on this, Sig.

It is best, when saying “the Church says” to offer a Magisterial document.

is not the same as , no matter how trenchant, sublime and numinous the GT’s writings are.

Now, if you could cite the Church (primary source, please) stating that the number of predestined is fixed and unchangeable.

Thanks!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TinaG,

I have been reading these posts carefully and have not seen anything like you have described coming from any Catholic posters who are not in the process of doubt the existence of Free Will

What particularly bothers me regarding this thread is that the Catholics seem to be saying they are not saved by faith but by their free will. Perhaps that is an overemphasis to combat what they view as errors on the other side? Salvation is not a survival of the fittest, a Darwinian winnowing of the elect so only the toughest make it. I suspect some of what I am hearing is so that you hope to boast, or do boast, on how great you are that you chose God. Yet Jesus said “You did not choose me - I chose you.”

As I see it, TinaG, you have set this up as an ‘either / or’ situation: Either Faith Or Free Will. This really looks more like a Straw Man argument. We are required to use our Free Will to accept the Grace that God want to give to us. Here is a really interesting story in Mark 10 dealing with a blind man

46They came to Jericho. And as he was leaving Jericho with his disciples and a sizable crowd, Bartimaeus, a blind man, the son of Timaeus, sat by the roadside begging. 47On hearing that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, son of David, have pity on me.” 48And many rebuked him, telling him to be silent. But he kept calling out all the more, “Son of David, have pity on me.” 49Jesus stopped and said, “Call him.” So they called the blind man, saying to him, “Take courage; get up, he is calling you.” 50He threw aside his cloak, sprang up, and came to Jesus. 51Jesus said to him in reply, “What do you want me to do for you?” The blind man replied to him, “Master, I want to see.” 52Jesus told him, “Go your way; your faith has saved you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed him on the way.

What makes this an especially interesting story for me is that the blind man obviously has Faith - but Faith alone… did not cure him. The blind man had to call out to Jesus. So, while we have obvious Faith - we also have the obvious use of Free Will. Christ knows what this man wants - yet, Christ asks him specifically - and the man again uses both Faith and Free Will to tell Christ that he wants to see. Bartimaeus may have been blind - but his ability to coordinate both Faith and Free Will through action (calling out, responding to Christ’s question) shows insight that would serve him well in the 21st Century.

Regarding the “stray sheep” thing, Christ came to seek and save that which is lost. A good shepherd does not say “that sheep wandered off. Tough on it.” Instead he goes and rescues that lost sheep and brings it back to the fold- willing or unwilling.

Sheep just do not inspire most people to believe that they are really intelligent animals hidden inside a wool coat. Wolves are not only intelligent but also cunning, crafty and highly interested when sheep are on the menu! Most people who underestimate a wolf do so at their peril! Fortunately for the sheep there is a Shepherd. The Shepherd makes sure that He is talking and visible to the sheep - but, remember these sheep (us) are not very bright and not only do we stop listening and stop looking - we stop following. This is why shepherds have crooks. Wolves are also familiar with crooks - but they get the business end from a very protective Shepherd.

Sheep do scatter, stray and unless they call out to the Shepherd for saving - will surely become lost - and a meal for the next wolf who happens by.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

I had forgotten all about that ‘ensoulment’ item … Great post!

God bless

PR “Who’s happy to let non-Catholics know what the difference is between the phrase “Your Church says” and " says”-merger

To wit:

Great doctor of the Church and Theologian believed this: Ensoulment doesn’t occur until several weeks after conception.

This is not to be confused with the Church’s teaching on this, Sig.

It is best, when saying “the Church says” to offer a Magisterial document.

is not the same as , no matter how trenchant, sublime and numinous the GT’s writings are.

Now, if you could cite the Church (primary source, please) stating that the number of predestined is fixed and unchangeable.

Thanks!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, FutureCatholic,

We need to be charitable… and accurate You can see from the pages of posts the degree of openness we are given.

Actually, there is real evidence of an open mind - open to any idea that promotes OSAS, lack of Free Will, the fact that many of us - beginning with the Pope are sinners and go to Confession and the Pre-determination of the soul by a god who just damns souls because he can. If I missed anything, it was an honest oversight.

God bless

it seams obvious that sig didn’t come with an open mind the only way you can correct what someone thinks is if there are open to the possibility that they might be wrong

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ubenedictus,

It is very good of you to have joined us - and, yes, this particular thread has been extended making catching up very difficult - especially if you are getting charged for each minute you use the net.

This is just a thought … but, would it be helpful to copy the posts and then past them to Word (or a word processing program)? Now, there is no getting around it - streamlining these posts would be in everyone’s interest … but, I just do not see that happening anytime soon. Let me give you an example.

One of the things I have had difficulty with are so-called ‘proof texts’ that appear to be pulled apart from their context and presented as 'proving; a particular idea. I will present several of the preceding and ending verses so that the reader can get a better idea of what not only is being said, but in what context that it was said. Omitting this would certainly streamline the post - but, it runs the risk of ignoring the context - and, in this thread, I think that would be a significant omission.

God bless you for being on the thread.

Please may i ask a favour? These pages are about a hundred (counting the former thread) is it posible for the arguement thus far be presented in a simplified form. I’m writing frm Nigeria and net asses isn’t cheap + reading the entire thead is really time consuming, i’ve spent 30min+ and have not read 15 pages. Thanks in advance

 

[PRmerger]

Originally Posted by TinaG V
newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article7 for one. Or is Aquinas insufficiently Catholic to be a primary source?

That whole section (His question 23) is interesting in light of the current thread. It has some ins and outs that have not been explored. Some Catholics on this thread, in their zeal to defend Catholicism, appear to be calling STA’s views heretical and I suspect they are veering close to blasphemy in some of their statements about a “God who would do such and such is (fill in the blank, such as capricious).”

-Tina “Not St. Thomas Aquinas, if you were wondering” G

Originally Posted by Sig
Thanks, Tina, I missed that question from PR.

Ah. So very good then. Sig, I think you need to amend your comment, to be correct.

I will do so, with your permission.

Originally Posted by Sig
Odell, even -]your church /-]AQUINAS states that the number of the elect is fixed and unchangeable.:

Now, is there something from the Catholic Church that states that the number of the elect is “fixed and unchangeable”?

I would like to read it in context.

And, Tina, to answer your question, Aquinas is, of course, Catholic, but not everything he writes could be construed to say, 'Even your Church says…"

PR “Who’s happy to let non-Catholics know what the difference is between the phrase “Your Church says” and " says”-merger

 

[PRmerger]

1 Jn 3:9

Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 Jn 5:18

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…

Stop avoiding my question: Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, PR?

I won’t answer until you can tell us how a stray sheep “continuously hears and follows”, or until you acknowledge that this is, well, an absurd paradigm.

 

[PRmerger]

I guess it’s time again to remind you that you, as a Catholic, are required to believe de fide, that God has predestined some to heaven.

And I give a hearty amen! to that.

IOW, because God has given them the gift of perseverance, they will not fail to get there. If that isn’t OSAS, then what is it?

If that’s what you mean by OSAS, then what Catholic could disagree?

Now the question comes as to if you, a creature, can know that you are one of the predestined?

If OSAS advocates proclaim that they know they are saved, then this is where their position becomes ludicrous. How can anyone know this (except, of course, God. And those who have persevered and are saved–in heaven)?

 

[PRmerger]

Are you saying that you don’t sin, Sig?

Nope.

This is indeed odd.

My honest and charitable friend, TinaG, also an advocate of OSAS/predestination has said this:

I regard myself as a one-person sin factory, continually generating sin on so many levels that I would, if Catholic, have to live in a confessional and have priests tag-teaming me just to keep up with it.

Oh, the irony!

 

[PRmerger]

Wow, you don’t sin ever? In any way no matter how small?

I never thought that in my lifetime that I would meet a real life saint. /

Where have I said that, love?

You need to learn to read more carefully.

Ummm…how 'bout right here? :whacky:

Are you saying that you don’t sin, Sig?

Nope.