SPLIT: Opposition: Penance & Confession

[DLClark]

Did you even READ the scripture examples given to you?

Ok - here, let’s make this easier.

Take every one of the examples given to you by E.E.N.S - and show is EXACTLY why you think they do not speak of penance.

If you can’t do that, or refuse to do that, then I think this conversation is done with you, because you flatly refuse to knowledge the examples given to you that prove you are wrong.

~Liza

What is the EENS?

the penance is incorrect. It should be repentance. This means a change of mind that will lead to faith in God. The word has nothing to do with the mortification of the flesh. Read the greek defenitions below and see.NT:3340

metanoeo (met-an-o-eh’-o); from NT:3326 and NT:3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):

KJV - repent.
(Biblesoft’s New Exhaustive Strong’s Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:3340

metanoeoo, metanoo;

to change one’s mind, i. e., to repent Luke 17:3 f
(from Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

REPENT, REPENTANCE

1. metanoeo NT:3340, lit., “to perceive afterwards” (meta, “after,” implying “change,” noeo, “to perceive”; nous, “the mind, the seat of moral reflection”), in contrast to pronoeo, “to perceive beforehand,” hence signifies “to change one’s mind or purpose,” always, in the NT, involving a change for the better, an amendment, and always, except in Luke 17:3,4, of “repentance” from sin. The word is found in the Synoptic Gospels (in Luke, nine times), in Acts five times, in the Apocalypse twelve times, eight in the messages to the churches, 2:5 (twice), 16,21 (twice), RV, “she willeth not to repent” (2 nd part); 3:3,19 (the only churches in those chapters which contain no exhortation in this respect are those at Smyrna and Philadelphia); elsewhere only in 2 Cor 12:21.
   (from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Will you answer my questions? Why if penance is needed is there mention of it in the epistles?
Q. How come there is no record of any of the apostle doing penance?

 

[LilyM]

What is the EENS?

the penance is incorrect. It should be repentance. This means a change of mind that will lead to faith in God. The word has nothing to do with the mortification of the flesh. Read the greek defenitions below and see.NT:3340

You can not be serious! What the heck is the fasting that Paul and other early Christians did in Acts - and which Jesus both did Himself and orders us to do - if not mortification of the flesh? Or do you think mortification only means whipping yourself or something (in which case your understanding of the word is faulty).

Will you answer my questions? Why if penance is needed is there mention of it in the epistles?
Q. How come there is no record of any of the apostle doing penance?

Christ mentioned penance in the Gospels, fer crying out loud. And not just the word but the deed. ''Sackcloth and ashes", as per the quote Gospel above, means both mortification of the flesh (sackcloth being the equivalent of wearing a hairshirt) AND penance!

 

[lizaanne]

I’m done here - this guy refuses to read.



~Liza

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Matthew 3:4 And the same John had his garment of camels’ hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins: and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
Sounds like John the Baptist was doing penance.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Where in the Bible does it say to us that we must do penance or even do it on a Friday?

Chapter and verse please?

Okay, DL, pay attention. The following is the chapter and verse in the Bible that requires us to do penance on Fridays.

Matthew 16:18-19 (King James Version)

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[DLClark]

You can not be serious! What the heck is the fasting that Paul and other early Christians did in Acts - and which Jesus both did Himself and orders us to do - if not mortification of the flesh? Or do you think mortification only means whipping yourself or something (in which case your understanding of the word is faulty).

Christ mentioned penance in the Gospels, fer crying out loud. And not just the word but the deed. ''Sackcloth and ashes", as per the quote Gospel above, means both mortification of the flesh (sackcloth being the equivalent of wearing a hairshirt) AND penance!

Fasting is not peance or repentance. Fasting is not the mortification of the flesh.

Show me a command given in the epistles where are told to practice the mortifiaction of the flesh?

Salvation is not based on penance. Christ only holds us accountable for what we do with Him in faith and that is all for salvation.

 

[adstrinity]

Fasting is not peance or repentance. Fasting is not the mortification of the flesh.

Show me a command given in the epistles where are told to practice the mortifiaction of the flesh?

Salvation is not based on penance. Christ only holds us accountable for what we do with Him in faith and that is all for salvation.

Yes it is. Fasting IS mortification of the flesh because you are not giving your body what it wants. You are denying it something for the sake of something better. You are letting your body become dead so that you may live.

No. You asked where does it say “Where in the Bible does it say do pennance” and we showed you. You deny that it says that because the Reformers changed what the Bible says to fit their own agenda. Now, since we HAVE showed you and you chose to ignore (or process and thus, not make an issue out of it), you are changing the question. Please acknowledge that the Bible DOES say what you requested us to show you and then we can move on.

That is incorrect, your last paragraph, there. That is bad catechism.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Fasting is not peance or repentance. Fasting is not the mortification of the flesh.

Show me a command given in the epistles where are told to practice the mortifiaction of the flesh?

Salvation is not based on penance. Christ only holds us accountable for what we do with Him in faith and that is all for salvation.

Yes it is. Fasting IS mortification of the flesh because you are not giving your body what it wants. You are denying it something for the sake of something better. You are letting your body become dead so that you may live.

No. You asked where does it say “Where in the Bible does it say do pennance” and we showed you. You deny that it says that because the Reformers changed what the Bible says to fit their own agenda. Now, since we HAVE showed you and you chose to ignore (or process and thus, not make an issue out of it), you are changing the question. Please acknowledge that the Bible DOES say what you requested us to show you and then we can move on.

That is incorrect, your last paragraph, there. That is bad catechism.

Adstrinity, I think by now it should be very clear that DLClark is not being honest with himself. How many times in this very thread has his questions been answered, yet he continues to ignore the answers…I don’t know what else to say to a person like that.

Sorry DLClark, you know what they say, “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.…”

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Christ only holds us accountable for what we do with Him in faith and that is all for salvation.

Wrong. That is not enough.

 

[jmcrae]

What is the EENS?

It’s the screen name of the person who was conversing with you earlier.

the penance is incorrect. It should be repentance.

Repentance is not merely a thought-exercise. When we repent of our sins, we do so by Confessing them in the Church, and doing the assigned penance. Repentance is an action - it is not merely to say in the silence of your mind, “My God, I am so sorry.” (Of course, that is always a good first step. But it is not the action itself.)

Will you answer my questions? Why if penance is needed is there mention of it in the epistles?
Q. How come there is no record of any of the apostle doing penance?

A multitude of examples have already been presented in this thread, of St. Paul shaving his head, fasting for long periods of time, etc., and also of the other Apostles both recommending penance, and doing it themselves. Do you have your responders on “ignore” by any chance?

 

[DLClark]

Okay, DL, pay attention. The following is the chapter and verse in the Bible that requires us to do penance on Fridays.

Matthew 16:18-19 (King James Version)

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

None of verse you are using use the word penance. It does use the word repent though.

Question for.
Is John 3:16 correct when Jesus said that when a person believes in Him he will be saved, have eternalife, and never perish? Is this correct here or not?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

None of verse you are using use the word penance. It does use the word repent though.

Question for.
Is John 3:16 correct when Jesus said that when a person believes in Him he will be saved, have eternalife, and never perish? Is this correct here or not?

That verse (Matthew 16:18-19) does show that the Church has the authority to bind and loose. So if the Church makes a requirement of Christians, then that requirement is made in heaven as well.

 

[DLClark]

That verse (Matthew 16:18-19) does show that the Church has the authority to bind and loose. So if the Church makes a requirement of Christians, then that requirement is made in heaven as well.

This talking about declaring what the Bible says. God says when we believe in christ our sins are forgiven. We declare this to others in the same way. We say that your sin are forgiven when you believe in Christ. All those saved by faith in Christ have the authroity to say this. It does not mean we can forgive sins. Only God does this because He is the one who is offended, not man. .

 

[E.E.N.S]

DLClark:

Please answer my question.
Is John 3:16 correct when Jesus said that when a person believes in Him he will be saved, have eternalife, and never perish? Is this correct here or not?

Of course it is correct, but you have to take it with everything else Jesus said…like “unless you repent and be baptized you will not inherit eternal life”…or, “unless you eat my body and drink my blood you have no life in you”…or, “unless you take up your cross daily and follow after me you will not inherit the kingdom”…or, practically all of Chapter 25 where Jesus tells us that we will be judged according to our works.

I don’t understand people like you who pick one or two verses from the Bible but ignore all the rest - even when they are presented to you. Do you want to know the Truth, or do you just want to find reasons to believe what you want to believe, regardless if it is true or not??

Here is a question you should give some serious thought: Why do you believe in the Bible in the first place? Did God come to you and tell you that these writings were inspired, or are you relying on a man to tell you? Why do you trust this man to tell you what is and is not the inspired Word of God? You are reading a translation of a translation of a transcription of a transcription…all done by fallible men…how do you know they are correct? Could they have made a mistake?

I know the answers to these questions, but I doubt you have ever given much thought to them…perhaps you should think about this for a bit, in prayer, and dwell on it some more.

After this, perhaps you should also consider all the other verses in Scripture which go against your current beliefs…such as you have said thus far…and which have NEVER been a part of Christianity until just recently. The Apostles didn’t believe what you believe, nor did their disciples…nor did the Christians after them. Just the little bit in this thread should be enough to convince you to at least take a second look at your position, yet you do not. I ask why not?

 

[E.E.N.S]

DLClark, you have dodge the answers all throughout this thread. If you honestly want answers, please read posts 6, 7, 8, 19, 22, 25, 26, and 31.

Also, here are some more scripture verses for you to read: Matt. 6:16-18, Mark 2:18-20, Acts 13:2-3, James 4:8-10.

*Actually, I will post these verses here for you to make it easier on you:

Matt 6: 16 And when you fast, be not as the hypocrites, sad. For they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest anoint thy head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not to men to fast, but to thy Father who is in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret, will repay thee.

Mark 2: 18 And the disciples of John and the Pharisees used to fast; and they come and say to him: Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast; but thy disciples do not fast? 19 And Jesus saith to them: Can the children of the marriage fast, as long as the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20 But the days will come when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them; and then they shall fast in those days.

Acts 13: 2 And as they were ministering to the Lord, and fasting, the Holy Ghost said to them: Separate me Saul and Barnabas, for the work whereunto I have taken them. 3 Then they, fasting and praying, and imposing their hands upon them, sent them away.

James 4: 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners: and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into sorrow. 10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.

---

Now you have SEVERAL Scriptural verses, both new and old testament, as well as the writings of the earliest Christians ALL saying to do penance. What have ye to say now??

DLClark, add to my post [above] #34, 35, 40, and 42 to posts you did not directly reply to. There are verses in Scripture which you simply ignore. I want you to address these verses directly and tell my your personal interpretation of them.

Tell me how “you will be judged according to your works” means “you will NOT be judged according to your works” to you…

Tell me how “you are saved by works, and not by faith alone” means “you are NOT saved by works, but by faith alone” to you…

Tell me how “when you fast.…” means “you don’t need to fast…” to you…

Tell me how in Matt 25 when Jesus says that those who do not perform works of charity will be cast into hell, *means just the opposite to you…
*
…and please, address them all, and start from page one, as you have dodged nearly EVERYTHING thus far! If you are right, you shouldn’t have a problem addressing the verses provided, after all Scripture doesn’t contradict itself.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

What is the EENS?

the penance is incorrect. It should be repentance. This means a change of mind that will lead to faith in God. The word has nothing to do with the mortification of the flesh. Read the greek defenitions below and see.NT:3340

metanoeo (met-an-o-eh’-o); from NT:3326 and NT:3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):

KJV - repent.
(Biblesoft’s New Exhaustive Strong’s Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:3340

metanoeoo, metanoo;

to change one’s mind, i. e., to repent Luke 17:3 f
(from Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

REPENT, REPENTANCE

1. metanoeo NT:3340, lit., “to perceive afterwards” (meta, “after,” implying “change,” noeo, “to perceive”; nous, “the mind, the seat of moral reflection”), in contrast to pronoeo, “to perceive beforehand,” hence signifies “to change one’s mind or purpose,” always, in the NT, involving a change for the better, an amendment, and always, except in Luke 17:3,4, of “repentance” from sin. The word is found in the Synoptic Gospels (in Luke, nine times), in Acts five times, in the Apocalypse twelve times, eight in the messages to the churches, 2:5 (twice), 16,21 (twice), RV, “she willeth not to repent” (2 nd part); 3:3,19 (the only churches in those chapters which contain no exhortation in this respect are those at Smyrna and Philadelphia); elsewhere only in 2 Cor 12:21.
   (from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

You are not translating it right. This will explain the right Catholic translation: The translation of “metanoeo” as "paenitentiam agite"The Greek verb “metanoeo” comes from two other Greek words: meta (change) & noos (mind). The most accurate rendering into English of the meaning of this word would be “to repent.” The implication was that at some point in time someone would change their mind about a past action and regret having done it. There was no simple Latin equivalent of this Greek term and so the Vulgate used the phrase "paenitentiam agite "which in Latin means “do penance.” The idea of “penance” in Latin carried the connotation of regret and sorrow for past actions but went further in that it also implied the performing of acts of reparation and mortification. By having Jesus say that his followers had to “do penance and believe the Gospel” (Mark 1:15) it implied that they needed to perform acts of mortification (fasting, self-denial, wearing a hair shirt, self flagellation) or reparation (restoring loss goods, compensating victims) , as conditions for the forgiveness of sins.

The protestants in the 16th Century claimed that the word “metanoeo” carried no such implication and that all that was needed was a genuine sense of sorrow for sin. Certain protestants – typified today by some Dispensationalists – even stated that sorrow for sin was not needed. They claimed that repentance merely meant that you intellectually changed the way you thought from that moment forwards without any reference to past actions. Those were “covered over” by Christ and hence forgotten by God. Technically, the protestants were right. The words “metaneo” and “paenitentiam agite” are not exact equivalents. But they forgot that the NT uses Greek words in a distinctly Hebraic way and that they must be understood in the context of a Hebrew idiom. The word for “repent” in OT Hebrew was “nacham” which has the following connotations according to Strong’s Concordance:Nacham - to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted a) (Niphal) 1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself b) (Piel) to comfort, console c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled d) (Hithpael) 1) to be sorry, have compassion 2) to rue, repent of 3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 4) to ease oneself.
As you can see, the OT concept included sorrow, grief , compassion, and acts to comfort others and be comforted oneself. Repentance was not merely an passive act of regret nor merely a change of mind.

As such, St. Jerome’s choice of “do penance” had the wider context of the OT meaning in mind and we need to appreciate that. In later rabbinical theology, the term “teshuvah” (turning) would be used for repentance. It would be defined by the Talmud as a turning towards God and a turning away from one’s sins. It also meant a turning towards one’s sins as something to contemplate and regret: the opposite of moral denial. St. Thomas Aquinas was aware of this rabbinical teaching and in his Summa Theologiae he has the turnings towards God and towards/away from sin as two of the four results of the grace of justification. (The other two were the forgiveness of sin and the infusion of the new life of grace.) The Rabbis were not heavily into acts of mortification. Many of these practices were unique to Christians who wished to imitate their Lord in his suffering for mankind on the cross. Nevertheless, repentance in “sack cloth and ashes” was a Jewish practice advocated in both Testaments(e.g., Daniel 9:3, Matthew 11:21).

In summary, the issue here was whether Greek grammar or the Biblical idiom should guide the translation. The protestants opted for the former while St. Jerome and the Catholic Tradition opted for the latter.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

This talking about declaring what the Bible says. God says when we believe in christ our sins are forgiven. We declare this to others in the same way. We say that your sin are forgiven when you believe in Christ. All those saved by faith in Christ have the authroity to say this. It does not mean we can forgive sins. Only God does this because He is the one who is offended, not man. .

DL that is not what the Bible says. John 20:23.

 

[E.E.N.S]

More dodging by DLClark…

DLClark:

E.E.N.S.:

DLClark:

Please answer my question.
Is John 3:16 correct when Jesus said that when a person believes in Him he will be saved, have eternalife, and never perish? Is this correct here or not?

Of course it is correct, but you have to take it with everything else Jesus said…like “unless you repent and be baptized you will not inherit eternal life”…or, “unless you eat my body and drink my blood you have no life in you”…or, “unless you take up your cross daily and follow after me you will not inherit the kingdom”…or, practically all of Chapter 25 where Jesus tells us that we will be judged according to our works.

I don’t understand people like you who pick one or two verses from the Bible but ignore all the rest - even when they are presented to you. Do you want to know the Truth, or do you just want to find reasons to believe what you want to believe, regardless if it is true or not??

Here is a question you should give some serious thought: Why do you believe in the Bible in the first place? Did God come to you and tell you that these writings were inspired, or are you relying on a man to tell you? Why do you trust this man to tell you what is and is not the inspired Word of God? You are reading a translation of a translation of a transcription of a transcription…all done by fallible men…how do you know they are correct? Could they have made a mistake?

I know the answers to these questions, but I doubt you have ever given much thought to them…perhaps you should think about this for a bit, in prayer, and dwell on it some more.

After this, perhaps you should also consider all the other verses in Scripture which go against your current beliefs…such as you have said thus far…and which have NEVER been a part of Christianity until just recently. The Apostles didn’t believe what you believe, nor did their disciples…nor did the Christians after them. Just the little bit in this thread should be enough to convince you to at least take a second look at your position, yet you do not. I ask why not?

How did come to know truth? Did you accept what the church told apart from the Bible?

I read the bible and it says that Word of God the bible is fom God and we are not add to it. That is good enough for me. Who am I to argue with the creator.

You do not really believe that John 3:16-18 is correct. If you did then you would believe what it says. Is it true then that aperson has eternal live and will never perish when they put their faith in Christ as John says to do? You do not believe this because whent right John 6 at added eating as part of salvation. I asked about John 3:16-18 not John 6.

LOL, yo did not answer my questions…AND you make false assumptions. You are really something else…

I asked why you believe in the Bible…unanswered.
I asked how you can fit all the other sayings of Jesus with your misunderstanding of John 3:16…unanswered.
I asked many other things, yet you refuse to answer them or even address them in anyway.

I realize that it is hard to answer these questions when you are not very familiar with Scripture, history or even Christianity, but you could at least be honest with yourself and try.

 

[DLClark]

My best friend abstains from meat on Friday’s all throughout the year. I never asked her why but I think its a pretty cool thing to do. I have actually thought about starting to abstain myself.

What will your gain from abstaining from meat on Friday? Why choose Friday and not another day of the week? Why not abstain all year long from meat?

 

[E.E.N.S]

DL that is not what the Bible says. John 20:23.

Indeed, there are several verses in Scripture that are contrary to DLClark misinterpretation of it.

Matt 25:
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Matt 7:
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

---

See DLClark, Jesus says you must not only believe, but do. Be careful not to twist Scripture unto your own destruction, (cf. 2 Peter 3:16).