SPLIT: Paying for Faith Formation

[Cristiano]

I find this thread quite amusing, it is a nice reflection of the culture of entitlement that is pervasive in this culture. The more I read the more I see people that ask “What can I get from the establishment?” instead of “What can I do for the body of Christ?”

It is interesting that instead of finding ways to support a complete and diffused Christian education people like to complain that the Church is dealing with a materialistic aspect of things.

I am truly frustrated by the arrogance of people that do not consider the idea of being humble and obedient when the things that we are asked to do are neither immoral or unreasonable.

 

[Edward_H]

I find this thread quite amusing, it is a nice reflection of the culture of entitlement that is pervasive in this culture. The more I read the more I see people that ask “What can I get from the establishment?” instead of “What can I do for the body of Christ?”

It is interesting that instead of finding ways to support a complete and diffused Christian education people like to complain that the Church is dealing with a materialistic aspect of things.

I am truly frustrated by the arrogance of people that do not consider the idea of being humble and obedient when the things that we are asked to do are neither immoral or unreasonable.

 

[MelbaTozt]

I find this thread quite amusing, it is a nice reflection of the culture of entitlement that is pervasive in this culture. The more I read the more I see people that ask “What can I get from the establishment?” instead of “What can I do for the body of Christ?”

It is interesting that instead of finding ways to support a complete and diffused Christian education people like to complain that the Church is dealing with a materialistic aspect of things.

I am truly frustrated by the arrogance of people that do not consider the idea of being humble and obedient when the things that we are asked to do are neither immoral or unreasonable.

I apologize if my sincere efforts to understand an issue that truly upsets me amuses and disgusts you. God bless.

 

[familyof4]

A church and a school are two different entities. One is the Bride of Christ! The foundation and cornerstone of Truth! The place where the Holy Mass takes place and Our Lord is truly present!

Pardon the exclamation points, but really, it’s important to know the profound difference here. (Which I’m sure you do, and I understand the point you were making. I just don’t want to sully the Church with a comparison to a charter school.)

Firstly, many parishes make it a requirement to have some amount of faith formation in order to receive a Sacrament. Sure, there may be loopholes for someone who knows their rights well, but we can all agree that these options are not advertised for those who do not. (Although some have pointed out that someone who doesn’t know that they can bypass the DRE isn’t worthy of receiving the Sacrament in the first place. I will happily disagree.) As I demonstrated in a previous post, offering financial aid is an impediment to those who are too embarrassed or ashamed to ask.

Secondly, requiring families to volunteer in order to receive instruction in the Faith so that they may have access to the Sacraments is wrong as well. What if a family cannot provide their time or money?

That is why tithing is not a requirement. What I mean by that, is that the Church doesn’t stop you at the door and require you to put in your money before coming in. It is between us and God what we can give. Some may have nothing. Some may have a lot. The Church can make recommendations (like, please consider giving for our new roof, etc.) and guide us in making decisions in how much to give considering our individual incomes, but it is not a fee taken at the door in order to enter and attend Mass or go to Confession.

So, imagine that you are in charge. You now have 150 students of varying ages and backgrounds to teach. Please put together a program that is free to all (and as you yourself noted, you can’t depend on church funds, since tithing is not a requirement nor parent hours, since some won’t be able to participate). Where do you meet? How do you cover the cost of the meeting room? The materials? Not everyone can afford pens or paper, so will you be providing them? Who trains the teachers? How do YOU fix the problem that you see? You see problems, tell us how to fix them.

On another note, I want to point out that the use of simony in this discussion has been abused beyond measure.

si·mo·ny
noun
1.
the making of profit out of sacred things.
2.
the sin of buying or selling ecclesiastical preferments, benefices, etc.

Simony involves a PROFIT. None of the instructors or those familiar with RE classes have ever seen a profit (materially) for charging a nominal fee to help offset the cost of books.

If you want to compare protestant Sunday schools, to RCC courses, kindly keep in mind two things-- one, Sunday school is a perk to help draw families into the church-- a church that will expect tithing. The rate of return IS a profit for many of these churches. Two, RCC religious education is more than memorizing bible verses. We have more materials, many of which cost money-- not to mention the meeting rooms, the electricity, etc.

Oh and Melba-- I must have confused your original Akin post, which evidently does have a link and the VBS quote which you didn’t provide a link for. You never did respond to the fact that VBS (vacation bible school) is not the same as religion classes, and shouldn’t have been included in this discussion.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m not saying it’s a “right.” None of us have any rights to receive any of God’s grace! I’m saying that Christ’s intent was that the Faith and His Sacraments would not come with a price tag.

I believe everything else you wrote falls in line with donations and tithing – and not inflicting mandatory fees onto the flock. Is that what you got from it? Given your argument, would you favor the parish sending each and every parishioner a bill for services rendered? Why or why not?

I think it was Christ’s intent that a hearer of the Good News would come not just with a willingness to give back, but a desire to do it.

For what did he say when one of the ten lepers he cleansed came back to thank him? Did he say, “Oh, don’t mention it. God’s grace is free.” No! He said, “Where are the other nine?”

We are not talking about someone being asked to help defray the costs of educating their child that can’t do it. We are talking about somebody who, having had to be asked because otherwise too few in the same position come forward to do it of their own accord, resents being asked to contribute toward a need of the Church that comes out of having educated their child.

I don’t think it is out of line to assume that parents want to know what it costs to provide education for their children, because they naturally desire to help defray that cost to the extent that they’re able to do it. Yet the thought that started this thread was, “Why should I, the child’s parent, be asked to provide for my child’s religious education? I shouldn’t have to do that. Religion ought to be free! Even though I can pay it, I think this education ought to come to our family without asking anything from us!”

Now, again, if we are talking about denying sacraments to those who have the desire but without the means to contribute towards the Church, that is something else. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about parents balking because they’re told their child needs to come to X meetings of preparatory instructions arranged by direction of the pastor and balking yet more because they don’t want to contribute towards what it costs to do it!

Coming from the parish as a whole, it is praiseworthy for those who do not have children in the class to want to contribute all of the expense of providing the education. That is wonderful. The sentiment is not so wonderful coming from parents. One would expect that parents who have the means to pay, upon learning that the course was free, would still want to make an offering without being asked, both to express gratitude and to preserve the parish’s means to help those who are truly in need. Rather than desiring to give out of gratitude for what is received when there is a resentment that one cannot take without giving in return, that betrays a sense of entitlement.

So unless this OP was really saying, “I had no idea that we weren’t paying for the kids’ preparation as a parish. I think we ought to, even though in the long run I’ll pay more than if I just contributed for my own child”, then yes, I think the attitude is off-base.

 

[jmcrae]

So, imagine that you are in charge. You now have 150 students of varying ages and backgrounds to teach.

To put some reality into it, let’s say that seven of the children (5% of the group, which is typical) can’t locate their Baptismal certificates. They were baptized in Japan, the Philippines, Mexico City, and various small villages in Africa. Before these children can be registered to receive Holy Communion, you must telephone each of their home parishes, and request and receive a faxed copy of their Baptismal certificates, to be included in their files.

Do this without incurring any overtime for any of the other office staff, and without spending any money on long distance telephone charges or translation services. (Means you need a donor to pay for the telephone charges, a volunteer to assist with the paperwork, and volunteers who speak the various languages involved, fluently enough to be understood over the telephone.)

 

[familyof4]

To put some reality into it, let’s say that seven of the children (5% of the group, which is typical) can’t locate their Baptismal certificates. They were baptized in Japan, the Philippines, Mexico City, and various small villages in Africa. Before these children can be registered to receive Holy Communion, you must telephone each of their home parishes, and request and receive a faxed copy of their Baptismal certificates, to be included in their files.

Do this without incurring any overtime for any of the other office staff, and without spending any money on long distance telephone charges or translation services. (Means you need a donor to pay for the telephone charges, a volunteer to assist with the paperwork, and volunteers who speak the various languages involved, fluently enough to be understood over the telephone.)

Amen! There are all sorts of things that crop up each time that add to the work load and expenses. We are always happy to help out, but none of it can be accomplished without a budget. I wish it could, but if some one can come up with some constructive ideas of how to do it without incurring any charges, I’m all ears!

 

[HouseArrest]

Melba,

I have read the whole thread, and I think your idea is great - that everything be offered for free and that the resources are just, well, there.

But they are not. That is the problem. I think everyone on this thread would love for the resources to be there. For people to tithe when they can. For catechists to be ready, willing, able, and provide enough. For the collection to cover all the expenses for everything anybody could possibly want offered at a parish.

It would be great if donations added up to costs, but they don’t.

It’s just not like that. So what is the answer when it doesn’t add up?

And by the way, check your diocesan website. Ours has homeschooling for regular RE and sacramental years clearly outlined. If yours is not on your website, call or email for the policy. Homeschooling is so prevalent now that it would be a surprise if there is no policy. (Of course the policy could be that it is not allowed… hopefully that is not the case in many diocese anymore, but that is another topic for another thread…).

 

[MelbaTozt]

Melba,

I have read the whole thread, and I think your idea is great - that everything be offered for free and that the resources are just, well, there.

But they are not. That is the problem. I think everyone on this thread would love for the resources to be there. For people to tithe when they can. For catechists to be ready, willing, able, and provide enough. For the collection to cover all the expenses for everything anybody could possibly want offered at a parish.

It would be great if donations added up to costs, but they don’t.

It’s just not like that. So what is the answer when it doesn’t add up?

And by the way, check your diocesan website. Ours has homeschooling for regular RE and sacramental years clearly outlined. If yours is not on your website, call or email for the policy. Homeschooling is so prevalent now that it would be a surprise if there is no policy. (Of course the policy could be that it is not allowed… hopefully that is not the case in many diocese anymore, but that is another topic for another thread…).

This is not my idea. It’s Christ’s idea.

The answer is that we do what the Church has been doing for hundreds of years before it became trendy to charge. Poverty is nothing new. I’ve answered this in other posts. If there isn’t money, then you appeal to the parishioners. You suggest donations from the parents. You scale back on supplies. If you can only offer pencils and lined paper, then that’s what the Church can afford.

I am not personally looking for a way to avoid giving money to the Church. Any of you who have accused me of looking for freebies, etc. are trying to be mean and are ignorant of the real issue I’m addressing… and the concern that is shared by other Catholics who want to preserve the Church from scandal or the appearance of scandal in this matter.

 

[Edward_H]

This is not my idea. It’s Christ’s idea.

The answer is that we do what the Church has been doing for hundreds of years before it became trendy to charge. Poverty is nothing new. I’ve answered this in other posts. If there isn’t money, then you appeal to the parishioners. You suggest donations from the parents. You scale back on supplies. If you can only offer pencils and lined paper, then that’s what the Church can afford.

I am not personally looking for a way to avoid giving money to the Church. Any of you who have accused me of looking for freebies, etc. are trying to be mean and are ignorant of the real issue I’m addressing… and the concern that is shared by other Catholics who want to preserve the Church from scandal or the appearance of scandal in this matter.

I think we have the example of Peter and Paul. They were workers. They paid their own way. Paul takes up tent making in the middle of his mission. No free lunch. He set the example.

Please restate your main point.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think we have the example of Peter and Paul. They were workers. They paid their own way. Paul takes up tent making in the middle of his mission. No free lunch. He set the example.

To clarify: Paul said specifically that Cephas (Peter) and the other Apostles did not work to support themselves, and that only he and Barnabas had not exercised “the right not to work” (i.e., the right not to have to get a secular job to support himself). He defended the right of the Apostles to live by the Gospel and not to get secular jobs, and stated that he supported himself of his own initiative.

 

[MelbaTozt]

I think we have the example of Peter and Paul. They were workers. They paid their own way. Paul takes up tent making in the middle of his mission. No free lunch. He set the example.

Please restate your main point.

Peter and Paul paying their own way is not relevant to this discussion… unless you are saying that they paid someone for religious formation in order to receive a sacrament or that they charged someone for religious formation in order to receive a sacrament. I cannot think of a precedent for this in the Church.

 

[Corki]

This is not my idea. It’s Christ’s idea.

The answer is that we do what the Church has been doing for hundreds of years before it became trendy to charge. Poverty is nothing new. I’ve answered this in other posts. If there isn’t money, then you appeal to the parishioners. You suggest donations from the parents. You scale back on supplies. If you can only offer pencils and lined paper, than that’s what the Church can afford.

That’s not really accurate. Parish faith formation has not been around for “hundreds of years”. Less than a hundred years ago, Catholic families were required to put their kids in Catholic schools (at least in the US). The were very few children from families who were part of the parish who were not in school and those that were were educated using the same material and the same teachers (often religious sisters) from the parish schools. And no one would have *dared *bring a child demanding First Communion (or any other Sacrament) if they weren’t also bringing them to Mass, teaching them their prayers at home and giving them a foundation.

You have said it before. But you fail to accept that a program where you give kids nothing but paper and pencils isn’t going to teach them much – let alone be approved by the diocese. It would be nothing more than a check-off so that you could say that the child sat at a desk X number of weeks.

It is not Christ’s idea that the parish be what is called a “Sacramental fillling station” where parents we have never seen before drop off kids who are unknowledgeable (and sometimes unwilling) so they can receive a Sacrament only to go home and not be seen again until the next Sacrament year. We have a very small window to plant what, we hope, will be seeds that may nurtured later in the child’s life. That can’t be done without some decent materials and some well-trained teachers.

For the most part, these are not poor families. Those that are poor don’t pay. Those that are able, pay. Calling it a suggested donation rather than a registration fee doesn’t change anything. If it’s just a name game, I prefer the term “reimbursement”.

"Dear parent,

We are delighted that you are bringing your child to St. Joe’s to prepare for First Holy Communion. The amount we will be expending for that preparation is approximately $200.00. We ask that you reimburse St. Joe’s a portion of that expense. Please check the box that best represents your reimbursement intention. ____ $25, ____ $50,____ $100, ____$125."

 

[Allegra]

I have to agree with the OP on this one. I don’t think churches should charge unreasonable fees for PSR or CCD. Frankly, if they just asked for a donation of a reasonable amount, most parents would pay it. I don’t think they should put a monatary barrier between children and the sacraments.

 

[MelbaTozt]

That’s not really accurate. Parish faith formation has not been around for “hundreds of years”. Less than a hundred years ago, Catholic families were required to put their kids in Catholic schools (at least in the US). The were very few children from families who were part of the parish who were not in school and those that were were educated using the same material and the same teachers (often religious sisters) from the parish schools. And no one would have *dared *bring a child demanding First Communion (or any other Sacrament) if they weren’t also bringing them to Mass, teaching them their prayers at home and giving them a foundation.

You have said it before. But you fail to accept that a program where you give kids nothing but paper and pencils isn’t going to teach them much – let alone be approved by the diocese. It would be nothing more than a check-off so that you could say that the child sat at a desk X number of weeks.

It is not Christ’s idea that the parish be what is called a “Sacramental fillling station” where parents we have never seen before drop off kids who are unknowledgeable (and sometimes unwilling) so they can receive a Sacrament only to go home and not be seen again until the next Sacrament year. We have a very small window to plant what, we hope, will be seeds that may nurtured later in the child’s life. That can’t be done without some decent materials and some well-trained teachers.

For the most part, these are not poor families. Those that are poor don’t pay. Those that are able, pay. Calling it a suggested donation rather than a registration fee doesn’t change anything. If it’s just a name game, I prefer the term “reimbursement”.

"Dear parent,

We are delighted that you are bringing your child to St. Joe’s to prepare for First Holy Communion. The amount we will be expending for that preparation is approximately $200.00. We ask that you reimburse St. Joe’s a portion of that expense. Please check the box that best represents your reimbursement intention. ____ $25, ____ $50,____ $100, ____$125."

You don’t need paid parish faith formation to instruct a child in the faith. My point is that some how, some way, the Faith was passed on without a fee. (And most likely without the use of anything more than pencils and paper.)

There is a reason the Church asks for donations from the community and doesn’t make it a requirement. There is a huge distinction and much meaning behind it.

For example, there was someone who posted a question about their Catholic school that was requiring a $5 fee for a Mass intention. You might think there isn’t much difference between a fee or a donation (or a voluntary reimbursement) but there is.

 

[Edward_H]

Peter and Paul paying their own way is not relevant to this discussion… unless you are saying that they paid someone for religious formation in order to receive a sacrament or that they charged someone for religious formation in order to receive a sacrament. I cannot think of a precedent for this in the Church.

Fair enough. Is your point that all costs of running a parish should come directly from the general operating budget - in principle supported by donations? I could live with that I think.

I pointed out above a practical benefit of charging…which is the attendance and participation seems proportionate to contribution. “Free” things are blown off more quickly.

 

[HouseArrest]

This is not my idea. It’s Christ’s idea.

The answer is that we do what the Church has been doing for hundreds of years before it became trendy to charge. Poverty is nothing new. I’ve answered this in other posts. If there isn’t money, then you appeal to the parishioners. You suggest donations from the parents. You scale back on supplies. If you can only offer pencils and lined paper, then that’s what the Church can afford.

I am not personally looking for a way to avoid giving money to the Church. Any of you who have accused me of looking for freebies, etc. are trying to be mean and are ignorant of the real issue I’m addressing… and the concern that is shared by other Catholics who want to preserve the Church from scandal or the appearance of scandal in this matter.

I’m just saying that appealing to parishioners, scaling back, and all that has been done and isn’t working. Actually I would guess that in most areas it is still being done along with charging the fees! It would be great if that would work but it just isn’t.

Essentially the parents are responsible for educating their children in the faith. That can be done in several ways. One is to use the parish religious ed program. If it goes under I suppose everyone could still do religious ed at home.

P.S. I don’t think you are looking for freebies.

 

[GwenL]

I asked once before and saw no answer.

Those who think religious education should be free for everyone in the parish, please suggest how this might happen. Please stay in the real world. Our parish collection doesn’t cover infrastructure and salary, so saying “use the Sunday collection” is simply wishful thinking.

“Scaling back” to providing only paper and pencil is also not in the real world. Does this class take place in a public park? Buildings cost money to use, heat, and cool.

By the way, we don’t charge for the sacraments. We charge for materials for classes that lead to sacramental preparation. If a family can’t afford it, it’s free. If a family educates their own children sufficiently, they go straight to the sacrament and don’t have to pay a dime.

Here is the easiest way to avoid paying for religious education: do it all yourself, to the pastor’s satisfaction. However, if you choose to have someone else do it, who will provide facilities and materials, it seems only reasonable to reimburse those costs. Again, let’s stay in the real world. Facilities cost money to heat and cool and provide electricity and plumbing. Teacher training isn’t free.

I don’t think that it suddenly became “trendy” to charge fees for religious education. I think that faith formation was done in the family, not in the parish. It became “trendy” to have the parish take up the burden of educating the children in the faith.

 

[EasterJoy]

Here is the easiest way to avoid paying for religious education: do it all yourself, to the pastor’s satisfaction. However, if you choose to have someone else do it, who will provide facilities and materials, it seems only reasonable to reimburse those costs. Again, let’s stay in the real world.

Also realize that your pastor may not let you put him in the position of denying your child the chance to make her First Holy Communion with the other children of her age and maturity because you talked him out of having her academically prepared by teachers under his supervision with the other children. If you can’t show that your child is ready by the beginning of the last school year of preparatory work, be prepared to be denied the opportunity to do it yourself. You have probably missed your window.

If you want to know what the window is, then, you do well to ask well in advance, while alternate arrangements might still be worked out.

 

[AJC]

In our diocese you can “home school” your children for CCD, but have to go to some parish meetings. In my opinion, it will only get worse as the Bishops continue to push for paid “lay ministers” in every parish. When my terminally ill sister died, I was asked to visit the rectory a week after her death. The nice stereotypical parish secretary hustled me into a comfy room where the parish “grief ministry” tripled teamed me. I asked to to talk to a priest. I miss my sister, but unlike many Americans and some Catholics I do not attend viewings or funerals to participate in a life celebration.

I have my feet in both Catholic worlds, pre and post Vatican II. Simply I attribute the demise of priests and religious solely to that event in Church history. The revival of the deaconate and this push for having lay ministers all over the altar is attributable to that terrible time in Church history.

When I need a priest, I want a priest, not some navel gazing fellow Catholic who attended over priced night courses given by the closest, usually liberal, Catholic seminary, over-schooled in “social justice” teaching, and because he was given a certificate signed by the Bishop now thinks they can run rough shod over everyone else in the parish.

Don’t let these “certified” lay ministers and CCD teachers anywhere near your children. They will charge you too much money (funny how small Protestant churches seem to offer their programs for free) and fill their heads with spiritual mush.

Signed,

A grumpy old school Catholic