SPLIT: Paying for Faith Formation

[Annabelle_Marie]

In our diocese you can “home school” your children for CCD, but have to go to some parish meetings. In my opinion, it will only get worse as the Bishops continue to push for paid “lay ministers” in every parish. When my terminally ill sister died, I was asked to visit the rectory a week after her death. The nice stereotypical parish secretary hustled me into a comfy room where the parish “grief ministry” tripled teamed me. I asked to to talk to a priest. I miss my sister, but unlike many Americans and some Catholics I do not attend viewings or funerals to participate in a life celebration.

I have my feet in both Catholic worlds, pre and post Vatican II. Simply I attribute the demise of priests and religious solely to that event in Church history. The revival of the deaconate and this push for having lay ministers all over the altar is attributable to that terrible time in Church history.

When I need a priest, I want a priest, not some navel gazing fellow Catholic who attended over priced night courses given by the closest, usually liberal, Catholic seminary, over-schooled in “social justice” teaching, and because he was given a certificate signed by the Bishop now thinks they can run rough shod over everyone else in the parish.

Don’t let these “certified” lay ministers and CCD teachers anywhere near your children. They will charge you too much money (funny how small Protestant churches seem to offer their programs for free) and fill their heads with spiritual mush.

Signed,

A grumpy old school Catholic

You want…you want a priest when you want a priest. Well, that’s all good and well…but our parish has one priest…just one…and he can’t be everywhere.

Speaking of paying for things…our seminary has the biggest “crop” this fall of new seminarians coming in…so an answer to prayer…but now…who is going to pay for their education??

 

[Lady_Marchmain]

I agree with you on everything, and all these side issues are interesting but beside the point and getting you away from what you need to discuss with the priest. It’s an outrage to charge anything for 1st Communion preparation. That is why we all put money in the collection basket (not “tithe” - Catholics do not tithe, we donate and the funds are put to parish needs, obviously including FF).

I say priest because the DRE is not going to change, she is following the procedure and would have to now back down to every parent. You are her enemy now, I’m sure. Tell the priest briefly what you said here, you consider this immoral, selling the Sacrament, and hope he will reconsider this very unusual policy.

BUT FIRST, so you know where you stand, call the Bishop and ask is it customary for all the parishes in his diocese to charge an expensive fee or refuse to allow a child to make First Communion? If they say, NO. Then say, well, there is on parish doing this, is that with the approval of the bishop? It seems wrong to me. There is a SLIM chance the bishop might disapprove of this and not know what’s going on. Then you ask them to call the priest and you are out of it.

 

[EasterJoy]

In our diocese you can “home school” your children for CCD, but have to go to some parish meetings. In my opinion, it will only get worse as the Bishops continue to push for paid “lay ministers” in every parish. When my terminally ill sister died, I was asked to visit the rectory a week after her death. The nice stereotypical parish secretary hustled me into a comfy room where the parish “grief ministry” tripled teamed me. I asked to to talk to a priest. I miss my sister, but unlike many Americans and some Catholics I do not attend viewings or funerals to participate in a life celebration.

I have my feet in both Catholic worlds, pre and post Vatican II. Simply I attribute the demise of priests and religious solely to that event in Church history. The revival of the deaconate and this push for having lay ministers all over the altar is attributable to that terrible time in Church history.

When I need a priest, I want a priest, not some navel gazing fellow Catholic who attended over priced night courses given by the closest, usually liberal, Catholic seminary, over-schooled in “social justice” teaching, and because he was given a certificate signed by the Bishop now thinks they can run rough shod over everyone else in the parish.

Don’t let these “certified” lay ministers and CCD teachers anywhere near your children. They will charge you too much money (funny how small Protestant churches seem to offer their programs for free) and fill their heads with spiritual mush.

Signed,

A grumpy old school Catholic

If it makes you feel any better, the Orthodox had no Vatican II, and they have women who insist they ought to be ordained priests, too. The 1900s saw the rise of modernism and then postmodernism, two World Wars, and general educational and societal collapses, not to mention the introduction of the designated hitter and the introduction of the wild card into the playoffs. Oh, and the Pill, LSD, and the nuclear clock, too. There’s quite a bit of that which is not attributable to Vatican II, since it preceded it. (The baseball stuff didn’t happen until the late 60s and early 70s, though, so it would be impossible to prove the 2nd Vatican Council can be safely removed as a suspect.)

Pray for vocations to the priesthood and religious life, and encourage parents to be generous in encouraging their children. The boys headed for the priesthood had better have a head for fundraising, though. That didn’t start with Vatican II, either. (Our old parish priest said he lost all the color in his hair during a fundraiser he had to run at the end of the 1950s.)

 

[joshrp]

I have lived in many states over the past few years and have had my kids in various parish catechism classes that were free. This is really the way it should be because you shouldn’t charge anything to teach the Holy Faith given to us by Jesus Christ free of charge and handed down to us free of charge for over 2000 years. You especially shouldn’t charge for the sacraments or the reception of the sacraments. Could you ever imaging Jesus charging the apostles a silver piece for their first Eucharist at the last supper? He would never do this because it is a sacrilege to put a price tag on the Body and Blood of Christ who is God. Nor can you put a price tag on what was handed down from Christ as our Faith which He freely gave to us.

When you charge a fee, you are not only behaving like a Judas, you are also making it harder for the poor (the ones Our Lord especially loved and embraced) to receive the Faith and the sacraments.

This has become an issue for me because I just joined a parish in Round Rock, Texas and they are going to charge me $75 for 1st Communion classes for my daughter. They told me that I have to take the class in order for my daughter to receive 1st Communion and that I have to pay. When I ask them if they are going to refuse 1st Communion to my daughter if we don’t pay they simply state that I need to pay for the class for the “materials.” What I say is throw out the materials if that is the barrier to my daughter receiving the sacrament. She doesn’t need materials. She only needs Our Blessed Lord. I teach her every Sunday from the Baltimore Catechism (which is timeless as our Faith is) so she knows everything about the meaning of the Eucharist and has been ready for two years now to receive Our Lord.

I refuse to pay for Faith formation or to pay to receive a sacrament because it’s immoral to do so. Have we forgotten the abuse of Johann Tetzel selling spiritual goods? What penalty the Church paid for his selling spiritual things! What penalty will we pay for charging to learn about Christ and to receive the sacraments?

We all know where the money is going. Judas knew where the money he collected was going. I taught catechism at several Texas parishes in the past and I wasn’t given any money for any of the materials which I paid for out of my own pocket. Nor was I offered anything for these materials. The only thing I was given was a watered down text that could be used in any Protestant church because it didn’t teach the Roman Catholic Faith. In fact the DRE criticized me for teaching about things like confession and original sin which she said the “church” no longer teaches. This was a DRE that was getting paid fulltime.

I’m sure there are many parents who decide to not take their kids to Faith formation because of the charges. I understand how much the materials may cost but there are other ways to remove these costs. You could find a solid catechism and just re-use it every year. Just ask the kids to bring their own pencil and paper and the cost would be 99cents per student per year.

I’m not poor and could pay these charges but refuse to do so because the charges are immoral!

If we can’t get enough good volunteers to do this stuff, then we are in trouble.

 

[quiet52]

To the OP:

Pay the fees for your children. Deduct that amount (pro-rated) from what you put in the weekly collection basket during Mass. Then you might feel less resentful.
And because your family is blessed financially, then give to each catechist in the RE program a gift card to the nearest office supply store, to help defray some of their personal expenses in their ministry of love. And ask your children’s catechists how else you can help them personally (Christmas treats, holy cards, etc.).

Please offer prayers of gratitude for the catechists and the DRE, who are doing the best they can for the children of the parish.

 

[MelbaTozt]

To the OP:

Pay the fees for your children. Deduct that amount (pro-rated) from what you put in the weekly collection basket during Mass. Then you might feel less resentful.
And because your family is blessed financially, then give to each catechist in the RE program a gift card to the nearest office supply store, to help defray some of their personal expenses in their ministry of love. And ask your children’s catechists how else you can help them personally (Christmas treats, holy cards, etc.).

Please offer prayers of gratitude for the catechists and the DRE, who are doing the best they can for the children of the parish.

I think the original poster makes it clear why he is outraged – and is has nothing to do with resentment, but what he sees as an abuse taking place in the parish. Not to compare anyone to Christ, but there is such a righteous anger if we recall what He did to the money changers in the temple.

The poster wrote:

“I refuse to pay for Faith formation or to pay to receive a sacrament because it’s immoral to do so.”

There are definitely times to stand up and question an abuse and other times when it is more beneficial to the Body to be quiet and bear it.

 

[MelbaTozt]

Fair enough. Is your point that all costs of running a parish should come directly from the general operating budget - in principle supported by donations? I could live with that I think.

I pointed out above a practical benefit of charging…which is the attendance and participation seems proportionate to contribution. “Free” things are blown off more quickly.

Edward,

Yes, that’s all I’m saying. And many poorer parishes do it that way, which is why there is a segment of us that are surprised to see fees.

Perhaps there is a practical benefit to charging, and the kids who show up attend more and do better. I give you that. But that’s a separate issue and an ends justify the means argument.

And we, Christians, are all about the means.

 

[MelbaTozt]

I asked once before and saw no answer.

Those who think religious education should be free for everyone in the parish, please suggest how this might happen. Please stay in the real world. Our parish collection doesn’t cover infrastructure and salary, so saying “use the Sunday collection” is simply wishful thinking.

“Scaling back” to providing only paper and pencil is also not in the real world. Does this class take place in a public park? Buildings cost money to use, heat, and cool.

By the way, we don’t charge for the sacraments. We charge for materials for classes that lead to sacramental preparation. If a family can’t afford it, it’s free. If a family educates their own children sufficiently, they go straight to the sacrament and don’t have to pay a dime.

Here is the easiest way to avoid paying for religious education: do it all yourself, to the pastor’s satisfaction. However, if you choose to have someone else do it, who will provide facilities and materials, it seems only reasonable to reimburse those costs. Again, let’s stay in the real world. Facilities cost money to heat and cool and provide electricity and plumbing. Teacher training isn’t free.

I don’t think that it suddenly became “trendy” to charge fees for religious education. I think that faith formation was done in the family, not in the parish. It became “trendy” to have the parish take up the burden of educating the children in the faith.

You are asking this over and over because no answer will satisfy you. There is an element of faith involved whenever we try to do what we know is right but seems impossible.

Jesus fed 5,000 people with nothing more than a few fishes and loaves of bread. Up until then his apostles wasted a lot of time worrying about how to feed these people.

Mother Teresa made it a policy to refrain from asking people to donate to her charity. She preferred to allow God to move others to do so. Somehow it worked out pretty darn well.

I have known priests who worry about the cost of the new roof and meeting salaries to the point that almost every Sunday we are hit up for money. I have known other priests who choose not to worry and fret… and instead pray… and the needs are miraculously met.

Setting fees on those things that used to – and should be – offered freely, will never address the true problem, which is the lack of involvement from the parishioners. To think, “Problem solved!” because now we charge for everything is foolish. This is not a problem solved by fees, but by prayer and demonstrating love of those who don’t contribute by being generous yourself – without complaining.

 

[Corki]

I say priest because the DRE is not going to change, she is following the procedure and would have to now back down to every parent. You are her enemy now, I’m sure. Tell the priest briefly what you said here, you consider this immoral, selling the Sacrament, and hope he will reconsider this very unusual policy.

That’s a bit of a generalization. Our DRE is quite invovled with helping families find alternatives - our pastor is not.

BUT FIRST, so you know where you stand, call the Bishop and ask is it customary for all the parishes in his diocese to charge an expensive fee or refuse to allow a child to make First Communion? If they say, NO. Then say, well, there is on parish doing this, is that with the approval of the bishop? It seems wrong to me. There is a SLIM chance the bishop might disapprove of this and not know what’s going on. Then you ask them to call the priest and you are out of it.

It’s not a “very unusual policy”. Nor is is an expensive fee. The diocisan office for Continuing Religious Education keeps track. According to last year’s number, the average in our diocese was $75 per student, per year - this is accross all years, not just First Communion year. I may be wrong but if someone was to go to the Bishop and complain about our $25 fee, he’s not going to get much sympathy.

I teach in a small, rural parish with relatively low overhead. A conservative estimate of CCE cost is between $75-$100 per child - more in Sacrament years due to the extra materials and the retreats. We charge $25/ child and waive fees on roughly 1/3 of the faimies. That means we “take in” an average of $18 offsetting a $75 expense. The larger parishes in more expensive parts of the diocese would have higher overall costs per child. I can’t get my mind around the idea that this is unreasonable or that people would prefer we eliminate approved materials rather than charge a small fee.

I agree with you on everything, and all these side issues are interesting but beside the point and getting you away from what you need to discuss with the priest. It’s an outrage to charge anything for 1st Communion preparation. That is why we all put money in the collection basket (not “tithe” - Catholics do not tithe, we donate and the funds are put to parish needs, obviously including FF).

The thing is, we don’t limit our CCE program to only those families that are “putting money in the collection basket”. Less than 1/4 of our CCE families are regularly attending Mass and even less are attending at our parish. We have chosen to reach more children and one of the ways we do that is by charging a small fee. If we wanted, we could limit our CCE classes to participating parishioners. Our expenses would then be much lower and we might not need to charge any fees.

Believe me, we have had this conversation at our parish many times. Given the choices, the opportunity to provide faith formation to more children came out on top.

Also realize that your pastor may not let you put him in the position of denying your child the chance to make her First Holy Communion with the other children of her age and maturity because you talked him out of having her academically prepared by teachers under his supervision with the other children. If you can’t show that your child is ready by the beginning of the last school year of preparatory work, be prepared to be denied the opportunity to do it yourself. You have probably missed your window.

If you want to know what the window is, then, you do well to ask well in advance, while alternate arrangements might still be worked out.

This is a very good point. However, if you are teaching your child effectively at home, the pastor is already going to know this (unless he is brand new to the parish). It’s not just about FHC. Catholic parents are required to provide a Catholic education for their children. By the time you go to talk to the pastor about FHC, he’s going to expect to see evidence of several years of Catholic education - whether that’s Catholic school, CCE or home preparation - and assurances that this will continue beyond FHC.

 

[MelbaTozt]

I agree with you on everything, and all these side issues are interesting but beside the point and getting you away from what you need to discuss with the priest. It’s an outrage to charge anything for 1st Communion preparation. That is why we all put money in the collection basket (not “tithe” - Catholics do not tithe, we donate and the funds are put to parish needs, obviously including FF).

I say priest because the DRE is not going to change, she is following the procedure and would have to now back down to every parent. You are her enemy now, I’m sure. Tell the priest briefly what you said here, you consider this immoral, selling the Sacrament, and hope he will reconsider this very unusual policy.

BUT FIRST, so you know where you stand, call the Bishop and ask is it customary for all the parishes in his diocese to charge an expensive fee or refuse to allow a child to make First Communion? If they say, NO. Then say, well, there is on parish doing this, is that with the approval of the bishop? It seems wrong to me. There is a SLIM chance the bishop might disapprove of this and not know what’s going on. Then you ask them to call the priest and you are out of it.

Thank you for adding this. There may be others (who aren’t aware of their options) reading this thread in the future and could benefit from your advice.

 

[EasterJoy]

If we can’t get enough good volunteers to do this stuff, then we are in trouble.

When parents are kicking a fit because they have to pay for the book (rather than refusing useless textbooks and insisting that the parish find something better), then we are in trouble. When it comes to scandals, who get stuck paying so that there are books for the kids is the least of our problems. The main problem is that the main educators in the faith aren’t doing any educating, not even to the point of contributing to the cost of having someone else do it.

I would submit that we are in trouble because of the number of parents whose own formation was so weak that they either wouldn’t know a text of sufficient rigor when they saw one, or WORSE YET they would be offended if their child saw a Catholic textbook that actually dared to teach the facts of the faith.

Speaking of volunteers in religious education, speak with a DRE or pastor some time and find out
a) how many religious education volunteers are from the parish at large, rather than being one of the parents or grandparents of the children in or just past formation for the sacraments (very few)
b) how many families approaching the parish for sacraments for their children do not volunteer in the parish in any capacity, do not attend Mass regularly or make *any *regular contribution to the parish, either in money or time
c) how many kids have learned essentially nothing at home when they begin preparation for First Holy Communion…and I mean they don’t know how to make a Sign of the Cross.
d) how many quit religious education the year the child makes a First Holy Communion
e) how many families do not take their children to confession a single time between First Holy Communion and when the child is a candidate for confirmation…if the child is ever a candidate, because 50-80% of those who make their FHC are never seen again.

While you’re at it, ask the DRE or pastor this: Which would take more children out of your program…charging $50 a year to defray* part *of the actual cost of RE or telling first or second graders that people who die without repenting of serious sin risk going to hell? The latter will have far more parents up in arms than the former.

What is so sad and ironic is that parishes sometimes make ironclad rules to deal with all of the above problems, as the pastor tries to ensure that all the children receiving their FHC are properly prepared, and meanwhile the parents who would do essentially all of the sacramental preparation for their children in the most admirable way–and in a way that no one else can!!–are either forced to put their child through the watered-down hoops or else wage a major campaign to get an exemption based on the trust that they’ll do their duty.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think the original poster makes it clear why he is outraged – and is has nothing to do with resentment, but what he sees as an abuse taking place in the parish. Not to compare anyone to Christ, but there is such a righteous anger if we recall what He did to the money changers in the temple.

The poster wrote:

“I refuse to pay for Faith formation or to pay to receive a sacrament because it’s immoral to do so.”

There are definitely times to stand up and question an abuse and other times when it is more beneficial to the Body to be quiet and bear it.

I don’t know if it has to do with resentment, but he has a bone to pick with the Church. I think the problem is that he only sees his part in the picture. The picture is worse than he knows. His righteous anger is misplaced.

The problem is that the OP believed that the money being asked for far exceeded the actual cost of preparation AND that he thought the preparations were far inferior to what he was providing himself. The second charge is not simony, but dereliction of duty. Our question is: why is the charge of simony the quarrel here? A priest can accept $10 for a single Mass intention, and it is simony to ask $25 or $50 for a whole year of classes? That doesn’t stick. So what is with the Judas/money rhetoric?

If the OP were told the true cost per candidate that the parish spends for FHC preparation and then asked to pay a few dollars over the cost of a quality textbook if and only if it is within his family’s means AND he had given his pastor sufficient reason to believe his child would benefit from the coursework and interaction with fellow students in the faith of his or her own age, I don’t think he’d bat an eye. I don’t think you would bat an eye.

I only differ with you as to what parents are entitled to. This may be because you think of parents who bring their child for FHC as active parishioners who have been in the habit of supporting the parish, volunteering when needed, attending Mass regularly, and teaching their young children the basics of the faith. Well, yes, parents like that might have reason to expect that they’ve contributed enough, but that is not the majority of families.

I think if Catholic parents do essentially no preparation themselves and participate little in the life of the Church (which is unfortunately close to the norm), then they have no room to complain when it isn’t free for the pastor to even partially address that glaring deficit for them. The parents promise at the child’s baptism to raise the child in the faith. They are responsible for the cost of doing that, but they’re not doing it and that is the problem.

I do think they have room to complain when rules are made by the parish which forces those who do a good job of preparation to pay for and go through the same coursework as those who bring their children forward with insufficient preparation and a limited amount of time to make up the deficit. There is also room for complaint by anyone when the coursework doesn’t accomplish that part of sacramental preparation that is within the parish’s ability to accomplish: That is, it doesn’t teach the faith correctly or does so without enough depth that the child might approach the Sacrament of the Eucharist with a correctly-formed conscience about what he or she is doing. That is a much greater loss than money!

If, in contrast to what I believe you to think, you actually think it simony when a family brings their child to be baptised, agrees in front of God and the whole parish to raise their child in the faith, but have done little towards that end when they approach the Church seven or eight years later are being asked to defray part of the cost of religious education for their own child…I think you’re out to lunch. I don’t think you are correctly identifying what Our Lord would find wrong with this picture.

 

[Cristiano]

When parents are kicking a fit because they have to pay for the book (rather than refusing useless textbooks and insisting that the parish find something better), then we are in trouble. When it comes to scandals, who get stuck paying so that there are books for the kids is the least of our problems. The main problem is that the main educators in the faith aren’t doing any educating, not even to the point of contributing to the cost of having someone else do it.

I would submit that we are in trouble because of the number of parents whose own formation was so weak that they either wouldn’t know a text of sufficient rigor when they saw one, or WORSE YET they would be offended if their child saw a Catholic textbook that actually dared to teach the facts of the faith.

Speaking of volunteers in religious education, speak with a DRE or pastor some time and find out
a) how many religious education volunteers are from the parish at large, rather than being one of the parents or grandparents of the children in or just past formation for the sacraments (very few)
b) how many families approaching the parish for sacraments for their children do not volunteer in the parish in any capacity, do not attend Mass regularly or make *any *regular contribution to the parish, either in money or time
c) how many kids have learned essentially nothing at home when they begin preparation for First Holy Communion…and I mean they don’t know how to make a Sign of the Cross.
d) how many quit religious education the year the child makes a First Holy Communion
e) how many families do not take their children to confession a single time between First Holy Communion and when the child is a candidate for confirmation…if the child is ever a candidate, because 50-80% of those who make their FHC are never seen again.

While you’re at it, ask the DRE or pastor this: Which would take more children out of your program…charging $50 a year to defray* part *of the actual cost of RE or telling first or second graders that people who die without repenting of serious sin risk going to hell? The latter will have far more parents up in arms than the former.

What is so sad and ironic is that parishes sometimes make ironclad rules to deal with all of the above problems, as the pastor tries to ensure that all the children receiving their FHC are properly prepared, and meanwhile the parents who would do essentially all of the sacramental preparation for their children in the most admirable way–and in a way that no one else can!!–are either forced to put their child through the watered-down hoops or else wage a major campaign to get an exemption based on the trust that they’ll do their duty.

Thanks for sharing this info, as a catechist I am quite frustrated by the whole attitude that a lot of parents have. For a lot of them it is easier to buy their kids a cell phone and pay for the monthly plan instead of making sure that they have the tools to grow in their faith. Look at the home libraries of these families and tell me the amount of money invested in secular books, CDs, DVDs, and TV vs. the amount of money spent on religious information.

This year I asked for permission to share with my students some CAF tracts that I will buy out of my own pocket. I already give them CDs with the Bible and a lot of other catechetical references that can be legally copied; however, I cannot copy YouCat and I bet that a lot of parents will complain when I will tell them that I expect all my students to have a copy.

A lot of parents do not want their children to receive religious education, they only want to put a check mark next to the word “Catholic sacraments” in their list of pseudo-parental responsibilities.

 

[MelbaTozt]

I wonder if we started to teach the Faith with vigor if that wouldn’t naturally weed out the superficial participants… seems to work elsewhere and is not a new idea. It was pointed out by someone that there used to be non-monetary expectations made of participants.

I say, “offend” them with the Truth rather than offend them with a fee!

Teach the kids about Hell and mortal sin and how not going to Mass could endanger one’s soul in lieu of a craft project that teaches practically nothing. Heck, you might only have a handful showing up for class.

But I do know one thing: watering down the material, slapping a price tag on it, and then making it a requirement for receiving a Sacrament is not a solution nor is it right.

 

[asd72]

I wonder if we started to teach the Faith with vigor if that wouldn’t naturally weed out the superficial participants… seems to work elsewhere and is not a new idea. It was pointed out by someone that there used to be non-monetary expectations made of participants.

I say, “offend” them with the Truth rather than offend them with a fee!

Teach the kids about Hell and mortal sin and how not going to Mass could endanger one’s soul in lieu of a craft project that teaches practically nothing. Heck, you might only have a handful showing up for class.

But I do know one thing: watering down the material, slapping a price tag on it, and then making it a requirement for receiving a Sacrament is not a solution nor is it right.

Many people in this thread have indicated that they have sacrificed time and money by their involvement with faith formation. Let’s be charitable and not make assumptions now that the teaching they do is without vigor!

 

[MelbaTozt]

Many people in this thread have indicated that they have sacrificed time and money by their involvement with faith formation. Let’s be charitable and not make assumptions now that the teaching they do is without vigor!

I am not making assumptions about anyone in particular at all. Watered down and even erroneous religious education has been my personal experience and seems to be problematic as others have indicated here. This may be no fault of the teacher since my husband has told me how limited he was when he was when teaching the Faith. It was a frustrating experience.

 

[Cristiano]

I wonder if we started to teach the Faith with vigor if that wouldn’t naturally weed out the superficial participants… seems to work elsewhere and is not a new idea. It was pointed out by someone that there used to be non-monetary expectations made of participants.

I say, “offend” them with the Truth rather than offend them with a fee!

Teach the kids about Hell and mortal sin and how not going to Mass could endanger one’s soul in lieu of a craft project that teaches practically nothing. Heck, you might only have a handful showing up for class.

But I do know one thing: watering down the material, slapping a price tag on it, and then making it a requirement for receiving a Sacrament is not a solution nor is it right.

I think that that you are quite correct when you say “watering down the material, slapping a price tag on it, and then making it a requirement for receiving a Sacrament is not a solution nor is it right”

However we do not want to weed out the superficial participants, that it is not what Christians are about. We want to be a tool for true conversion, and that must be done through solid orthodoxy. I always tell the parents that show up at the introductory meeting that the words that make me cringe the most are “I was a Catholic …”. I think that the most embarrassing and difficult part is to find serious Catechists and parents.

 

[MelbaTozt]

I think that that you are quite correct when you say “watering down the material, slapping a price tag on it, and then making it a requirement for receiving a Sacrament is not a solution nor is it right”

However we do not want to weed out the superficial participants, that it is not what Christians are about. We want to be a tool for true conversion, and that must be done through solid orthodoxy. I always tell the parents that show up at the introductory meeting that the words that make me cringe the most are “I was a Catholic …”. I think that the most embarrassing and difficult part is to find serious Catechists and parents.

I’m with you. It’s amazing how solid orthodoxy attracts so many who are truly hungry in this day and age when there are so many lukewarm messages around. When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.

I’m always amazed at my sister’s parish when I visit. She has an amazing priest who often, and passionately, reminds the parish of danger of not being in a state of grace before coming up to receive. (This is just one example.) He has high expectations of the flock when it comes to behavior and dress and making it to confession and impresses it upon them often. You would think his church would be half-full, but it’s bursting at the seams during the many masses he gives on Sundays with people always standing in the back. (And this is a big church.) By comparison, I have gone to the many other parishes in the same town that strive to make all spiritually comfortable and they are half-full.

 

[Corki]

I wonder if we started to teach the Faith with vigor if that wouldn’t naturally weed out the superficial participants… seems to work elsewhere and is not a new idea. It was pointed out by someone that there used to be non-monetary expectations made of participants.

Teach the kids about Hell and mortal sin and how not going to Mass could endanger one’s soul in lieu of a craft project that teaches practically nothing. Heck, you might only have a handful showing up for class.

But I do know one thing: watering down the material, slapping a price tag on it, and then making it a requirement for receiving a Sacrament is not a solution nor is it right.

How do you know the craft project teaches them nothing? It is hard to teach pre-readers without something hands-on. My kindergarteners, for example, each built a prayer corner as they were learning their prayers. The Crucifix went in when they learned the Sign of the Cross, a “statue” of Mary went in when they learned the Hail Mary, etc. Someone earlier in this thread told you about using a tree to help older students learn the fruits of the Holy Spirit. A child who is not reading yet or who isn’t a verbal learner is going to learn a whole lot more from a craft project than from someone dictating to them and expecting them to write stuff down on a blank piece of paper.

Sure there are some weak programs out there. But you would be surprized at how much “meat” is in many of the textbook series. We use Faith and Life. Our kids know about Heaven and Hell, they know about mortal and venial sins, they know they have an obligation to attend Mass. We don’t water down anything.

It is not an “either-or” situation. Having good material doesn’t mean that the kids aren’t taught the fundamentals any more than having a bare bones program would result in better formation. Having good materials (which are not free), having desks, boards with markers, chairs, heat, electricity, trained teachers all work toward better formation not against it.

Shouldn’t we want better for our kids rather than less?

 

[familyof4]

You are asking this over and over because no answer will satisfy you. There is an element of faith involved whenever we try to do what we know is right but seems impossible.

Jesus fed 5,000 people with nothing more than a few fishes and loaves of bread. Up until then his apostles wasted a lot of time worrying about how to feed these people.
.

I knew that eventually some reference to Jesus feeding the 5000 would come up. Jesus was God after all-- we’re not. We can’t perform miracles.

The reason that others keep asking you the question is because you never provide a real answer.

I hope you do contact your bishop with your concerns, and find some way to help out rather than to continue to throw stones (you remember what Jesus said about that, right?)

Other than that, I think this thread is dead. You refuse to see that you have accused others of simony without reason, refuse to do anything but point out a perceived problem, but offer no valid solutions, and so it’s all about beating a dead horse.

Good luck, and God bless you.