SPLIT: Paying for Faith Formation

[MelbaTozt]

It’s usually not a written exam. You speak to the pastor. It is his responsibility to ensure that each child is prepared.

If that’s their reason, I can almost guarantee that the pastor will say “no”. There are valid reasons to do this such as a child with a disability that makes classroom learning difficult or a custody arrangement that makes it impossible for the child to regularly attend class. There are some children who have been so well prepared at home that the class would not add anything to their preparation. However, wanting something for nothing is not a valid reason.

Would you have anything against advertising this option so that parents who have already put in the hours teaching their children will know they can simply go to the priest and circumvent the entire class? Would you be fine putting this into the parish bulletin? If it’s so simple and obvious, then why not let parents know about it?

 

[jmcrae]

It’s usually not a written exam. You speak to the pastor. It is his responsibility to ensure that each child is prepared.

Right - I should have made that more clear. The exam is the child being interviewed by the priest, orally, to make sure that she understands everything necessary. It’s not something written down that you can study for (or cheat for) ahead of time - the child has to actually know her Catechism, understand the meaning, and have her prayers memorized.

 

[jmcrae]

Would you have anything against advertising this option so that parents who have already put in the hours teaching their children will know they can simply go to the priest and circumvent the entire class? Would you be fine putting this into the parish bulletin? If it’s so simple and obvious, then why not let parents know about it?

Probably because the priest doesn’t want a line-up out his door. It’s easier to prepare a large group all at once, than to prepare each and every child individually, one at a time.

Those who have actually done the preparation at home will have had their curriculum approved by the priest or the Bishop already, and they will already have appointments in place for their children to be examined and to receive their Sacraments, anyway, so a general announcement isn’t necessary for them.

 

[EasterJoy]

Someone tell me why it would be wrong to attach a predetermined fee to Last Rites.

I’ll even add that the fee could be waived if the dying qualifies for financial aid. Heck, you could even implement a sliding scale according to means. (i.e. The Dying: “How much is it?” The Parish: “How much you got?”)

A child should receive First Holy Communion without meeting a required financial obligation and making RE mandatory (unless you’re poor) is an indirect way of asking money for a sacrament. (Suggesting a donation is fine.)

When I pay my tithe each week at Mass, this is what I’m paying for. If our parishes do not find it a priority to teach our children in the Faith and offer them the sacraments, what in the world is their priority?

Oh, and all this hooey about “we don’t want to be babysitters for families who otherwise wouldn’t bring their children” and using a fee to “weed out” the serious-minded from the frivolous is shocking. If that’s how you truly feel, then…well, wow. It’s sad that I need to point out how all children are precious to God and He wants them all to learn the Faith and receive His Sacraments no matter the spiritual condition of the parents. What a profound opportunity to reach out to a child who needs the instruction all the more!

As far as I know, there theoretically could be a customary offering for Last Rites, if a bishop wanted to do that. It is allowed to have a customary offering for the sacraments, within the boundaries of canon law:
**Can. 848 **The minister is to seek nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by competent authority, always taking care that the needy are not deprived of the assistance of the sacraments because of poverty.

Having said that, the customary offering is usually given to the priest who presides at the funeral, if the family has the means, not at the time of Last Rites. That is simply not a time when anyone is going to be asked to be thinking about contributing towards the legitimate needs of the priest. If someone wanted to do it, they could, but a priest wouldn’t expect it.

I want to clarify about asking parents to help defray the costs of the program. It is not intended to “weed out” anyone. Ironically, if all other things are equal, people attend better when they’ve had to pay for something. Lawyers doing pro bono work find the same thing. If they have a sliding scale that asks people to contribute something based on their ability to pay, the people do a better job of showing up on time and doing their part. They tend to believe they’re really getting something worthwhile when a reasonable counter-offering is asked for.

 

[Corki]

Would you have anything against advertising this option so that parents who have already put in the hours teaching their children will know they can simply go to the priest and circumvent the entire class? Would you be fine putting this into the parish bulletin?** If it’s so simple and obvious, then why not let parents know about it**?

Because any parent who is truly knowledgeable about their faith would already know this. If someone is unaware that he can approach a priest to ask for the Sacraments, he isn’t that knowledgeable in the faith. And if he’s not that knowledgeable, who has been teaching his children?

If you put something like this in a bulletin, the only people it would attract would be those who think they are knowledgeable and who *think *they have properly prepared their children but who really haven’t.

 

[MelbaTozt]

As far as I know, there theoretically could be a customary offering for Last Rites, if a bishop wanted to do that. It is allowed to have a customary offering for the sacraments, within the boundaries of canon law:
**Can. 848 **The minister is to seek nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by competent authority, always taking care that the needy are not deprived of the assistance of the sacraments because of poverty.

Having said that, the customary offering is usually given to the priest who presides at the funeral, if the family has the means, not at the time of Last Rites. That is simply not a time when anyone is going to be asked to be thinking about contributing towards the legitimate needs of the priest. If someone wanted to do it, they could, but a priest wouldn’t expect it.

I want to clarify about asking parents to help defray the costs of the program. It is not intended to “weed out” anyone. Ironically, if all other things are equal, people attend better when they’ve had to pay for something. Lawyers doing pro bono work find the same thing. If they have a sliding scale that asks people to contribute something based on their ability to pay, the people do a better job of showing up on time and doing their part. They tend to believe they’re really getting something worthwhile when a reasonable counter-offering is asked for.

Then why not make it a customary offering/donation like all the other sacraments?

 

[Corki]

Right - I should have made that more clear. The exam is the child being interviewed by the priest, orally, to make sure that she understands everything necessary. It’s not something written down that you can study for (or cheat for) ahead of time - the child has to actually know her Catechism, understand the meaning, and have her prayers memorized.

Of course, it **can **be a written exam. I know one parish where they have expanded so quickly, they can’t fit all the kids into the classes and they rarely have room for any student who doesn’t register early. Parents who miss the cut-off can home-school using the same materials. This is true for all grades, not just Sacrament years. The student comes a few times a year and takes a written test to demonstrate they are staying on track.

The point is that the pastor decides what the student needs to be able to do (written or oral) to demonstrate they have been properly prepared.

 

[MelbaTozt]

Because any parent who is truly knowledgeable about their faith would already know this. If someone is unaware that he can approach a priest to ask for the Sacraments, he isn’t that knowledgeable in the faith. And if he’s not that knowledgeable, who has been teaching his children?

If you put something like this in a bulletin, the only people it would attract would be those who think they are knowledgeable and who *think *they have properly prepared their children but who really haven’t.

And the RE class teaches the First Communion child about Code of Canon law as it relates to the availability of Sacraments and how and when to circumvent parish authorities and go straight to the priest? You must be teaching quite a class.

There are plenty of parents who understand the Sacrament but aren’t intellectuals in matters of Church law.

 

[jmcrae]

There are plenty of parents who understand the Sacrament but aren’t intellectuals in matters of Church law.

You don’t have to be an “intellectual in Church law” to comprehend that it is the priest who gives us the Sacraments; not the DRE or the volunteer catechist.

What’s so “intellectual” about, “Hi, Father, how can my child receive Holy Communion without having to take this class that seems to be a repeat of what we have been learning at home already?”

And by the way, the priest is the parish authority - everyone else works for him. He is the DRE’s boss; not the other way around.

 

[Corki]

And the RE class teaches the First Communion child about Code of Canon law as it relates to the availability of Sacraments and how and when to circumvent parish authorities and go straight to the priest? You must be teaching quite a class.

It’s not the child that needs to know this; it’s the teacher. And yes, all of our teachers are familiar with this - which is in the CCC. No one needs to be familiar with the Code of Canon Law in order to request the Sacraments. If someone wanted to skip the classes and, for whatever reason, didn’t want to speak to the pastor, he could speak to one of the teachers or the DRE who could also explain how to go about it.

There are plenty of parents who understand the Sacrament but aren’t intellectuals in matters of Church law.

Being prepared for a Sacrament is more than just understanding that particular Sacrament. Someone much earlier in this thread mentioned using the Baltimore Catechism to teach their child at home. The BC is a great text - we use it in our program and I use it at home. But if a parent is ONLY using the BC, he won’t be doing a very thorough job of faith formation. Parents are the primary educators but they usually are not the only educators - especially in matters of faith. If a parent wants to be the ONLY educator he better be very knowledgeable.

 

[MelbaTozt]

From Jimmy Akin:

jimmyakin.org/2005/08/simony_at_sunda.html

Simony At Sunday School?

A reader writes:

Pretty simple question -- but one to which I've never heard an intelligent answer.  My parish charges $100.00 each to put a child through one season of religious ed (what we would have called "Sunday School" in my days as a Baptist).  Shouldn't this be considered simony?  After all, the passing of the faith down to the next generation is part of the Church's core mission -- not some kind of extra added service, like a camping trip.  It's part of her duty, not something for which she may legitimately demand payment, to my way of thinking...

(I'm asking this, Jimmy, because my still-Baptist parents are scandalized by the very idea; they hear the ghost of Tetzel in this request, the coins still jingling in his cup.  They've never heard of simony per se but they do definitely see the principle.  Ironically, however, they see nothing at all wrong with an church counselor who happens to have some kind of psychology degree insisting $50 an hour for his services.  I thought this was simony even when I was still a Baptist!).

[Answer] I know how one might seek to defend this on canonical grounds. The 1917 Code contained a definition of simony, but this definition was eliminated from the 1983 Code as the result of a policy seeking to eliminate definitions from the new Code. The 1917 definition thus doesn’t have legal force any more, but it does shed light on the kind of things that are classified as the canonical crime of simony. Here’s the def:

Canon 727

§1. By divine law, simony is the studied will to buy or sell fo ra temporal price an intrinsically spiritual thing, for example, Sacraments, ecclesiastical jurisdiction, consecration, indulgences, and so forth, or temporal things so connected with spiritual things that without the spiritual they cannot exist, for example, ecclesiastical benifices, and so on, or a spiritual thing that is, even in part, the object of a contract, for example, the consecration of a chalice consecrated in sale.

One might look at this and say, “Okay, when the 1917 Code refers to ‘things,’ it has in mind something more concrete than Sunday school education”–or one would want to find some way to distinguish Sunday school education from the examples of simony listed here.

My trouble is that I’m not convinced (a) that it is possible to find a relevant distinction here and (b) my instincts tell me that charging for basic instruction in the Christian faith is just wrong.

Now, if the parish is charging a fee for optional teaching aids that a child is not required to have (e.g., workbooks or something) then I can see that.

I also can see having a suggested donation that will be used to pay the teachers for their time then I can also see that (“The worker is worth his wages,” after all).

I perhaps could see charging a fee for an advanced course in something that is not basic catechesis.

But if they are really charging for basic instruction in the faith then it seems to me to be simony.

There’s a balance to be struck in the proclamation of the gospel, and Jesus illustrates that balance in the commission to preach that he gives to the disciples in Matthew 10. In verse 8, he tells them “Freely you have received, freely give.” He then tells them in verses 9 and 10 not to take money but to depend on the donations they are given, saying that the laborer deserves his food.

It thus seems to me that the logical way to proceed for a parish would be to solicit donations for basic religious education but not to charge for it. The latter would strike me as simony.

So I’m with your parents on that one–assuming that’s what’s happening here and that it isn’t a misunderstanding of the parish’s suggested donation policy.

(NOTE: If the parish is committing simony, one would hope that they aren’t compounding the sin by refusing to grant waivers to those children whose parents can’t or won’t pay.)

 

[EasterJoy]

Then why not make it a customary offering/donation like all the other sacraments?

As far as I know, the reasons are pastoral. You don’t want a family going through an actual death to have that to concern themselves with a custom of that sort, and certainly the priest doesn’t want recipient of the Last Rites to concern themselves with anything like that. It would be legitimate in terms of the letter of canon law, but it would make the priest feel like a vulture, when in fact being in attendance when someone is going through a death in faith is a great privelege. The family will be thinking along those lines when they make the arrangements for the funeral Mass. That would be the customary time to make an offering to the priest.

Now, if one priest were to have administered Last Rites and another does the funeral, I would not be at all surprised if the family were to give an offering to the priest who offered Last Rites and attended to their loved one at the time of death, or that they wouldn’t give him an offering in order to have Masses said for their loved one. I’ve never heard of any custom like that, though. It just seems the right thing to do, as a show of appreciation.

In contrast, the monies that parishes get for First Holy Communion preparation are for the preparation, not the sacrament itself. It isn’t simony; the priest sees none of it. The sticking point comes because some parishes have had parents opt out of the parish’s program, not hold up their end of the deal, and then you have a child who maybe can’t make her First Holy Communion with the other children her age because she’s not been prepared. Or there are hard feelings and calls to the chancery office even when a child is legitimately deemed unready and is required to do the program. Wailing and knashing of teeth ensues. They just make it a policy that everyone who can’t demonstrate they’re prepared before the parish program starts have to go through the parish program and have to pay what it costs the parish to put it on, if they are able. That’s when people complain that there is a tariff on First Holy Communion, but you can see the spot the pastor and the parish is in, otherwise.

 

[MelbaTozt]

As a Evangelical-Protestant convert to the Church, I found this comment (on Akin’s website) so true. We, as Catholics, need to get our act together. My husband taught for several years out of a profound desire to spread the Truth to kids! There were no fees to hear and learn the Truth.

I hope to do the same when my children are a little older (and now that I’m Catholic). I will never be a part of a program that charges. Insanity… and most of you on this list cannot see past the “but it costs money” part and to the HEART OF THE MATTER.

“It occurs to me that cradle Catholics may not have a vivid sense of the contrast which is causing the scandal. Most Americans have multiple churches COMPETING for the privilege of taking their kids to Sunday School! Church members actually knock on their doors, leave hundreds of dollars worth of promotional material, and BEG to teach their children the faith (or some approximation to it) TOTALLY GRATIS. In many towns, whole fleets of buses can be seen prowling suburban streets on Sunday mornings (diesel is pushing $3.00 a gallon these days, mind you) picking up kids, carrying them to Sunday School for a hour and a half, and then driving them back home again…heavily laden with coloring pages, song books, and pocket New Testaments. Nobody hits them or their parents up for one red cent. And it’s not because these churches have plenty of money to throw around and one place is as good as another to them. No, evangelization/catechesis is a PRIORITY to these people, God love 'em, and it isn’t to us. Bottom line.”

Hey, do any of you also support fees for RCIA? It would be very odd to charge to educate the children but not the adults.

 

[EasterJoy]

As a Evangelical-Protestant convert to the Church, I found this comment (on Akin’s website) so true. We, as Catholics, need to get our act together. My husband taught for several years out of a profound desire to spread the Truth to kids! There were no fees to hear and learn the Truth.

I hope to do the same when my children are a little older (and now that I’m Catholic). I will never be a part of a program that charges. Insanity… and most of you on this list cannot see past the “but it costs money” part and to the HEART OF THE MATTER.

“It occurs to me that cradle Catholics may not have a vivid sense of the contrast which is causing the scandal. Most Americans have multiple churches COMPETING for the privilege of taking their kids to Sunday School! Church members actually knock on their doors, leave hundreds of dollars worth of promotional material, and BEG to teach their children the faith (or some approximation to it) TOTALLY GRATIS. In many towns, whole fleets of buses can be seen prowling suburban streets on Sunday mornings (diesel is pushing $3.00 a gallon these days, mind you) picking up kids, carrying them to Sunday School for a hour and a half, and then driving them back home again…heavily laden with coloring pages, song books, and pocket New Testaments. Nobody hits them or their parents up for one red cent. And it’s not because these churches have plenty of money to throw around and one place is as good as another to them. No, evangelization/catechesis is a PRIORITY to these people, God love 'em, and it isn’t to us. Bottom line.”

I wouldn’t call asking for a tithe not being hit up for a red cent or providing anything “totally gratis.”

Protestants contribute a far higher per capita operating budget to their churches than Catholics do. Who is it who has their priorities messed up?

If you’re arguing that every Catholic in the pews ought to expect themselves to pony up more so that the Catholic parents aren’t left shouldering all the educational expenses of the parish directly, though, you’ll not find an argument from me!!

 

[Corki]

As a Evangelical-Protestant convert to the Church, I found this comment (on Akin’s website) so true. We, as Catholics, need to get our act together. My husband taught for several years out of a profound desire to spread the Truth to kids! There were no fees to hear and learn the Truth.

“It occurs to me that cradle Catholics may not have a vivid sense of the contrast which is causing the scandal. Most Americans have multiple churches COMPETING for the privilege of taking their kids to Sunday School! Church members actually knock on their doors, leave hundreds of dollars worth of promotional material, and BEG to teach their children the faith (or some approximation to it) TOTALLY GRATIS. In many towns, whole fleets of buses can be seen prowling suburban streets on Sunday mornings (diesel is pushing $3.00 a gallon these days, mind you) picking up kids, carrying them to Sunday School for a hour and a half, and then driving them back home again…heavily laden with coloring pages, song books, and pocket New Testaments. Nobody hits them or their parents up for one red cent. And it’s not because these churches have plenty of money to throw around and one place is as good as another to them. No, evangelization/catechesis is a PRIORITY to these people, God love 'em, and it isn’t to us. Bottom line.”

Hey, do any of you also support fees for RCIA? It would be very odd to charge to educate the children but not the adults.

Actually, there is nothing odd about it. To Catholics, educating our children is the responsibility of the parents. They are **required **to provide faith formation for their children. There are several ways to do that. The normative way is to send the children to a Catholic school. The parish programs were originally developed as an alternative for parents who couldn’t send their kids to Catholic schools. And of course, in today’s environment, Catholic schools aren’t as accessible (geographically or financially) as they once were. The responsibilty is on the parents.

For RCIA, the responsibilty for the faith formation of someone wanting to join the Church is the pastor’s.

I hope to do the same when my children are a little older (and now that I’m Catholic). I will never be a part of a program that charges. Insanity… and most of you on this list cannot see past the “but it costs money” part and to the HEART OF THE MATTER.

Actually, I think everyone here sees past the costs but that doesn’t make the costs go away. The HEART OF THE MATTER is that no one can snap their fingers and make faith formation happen. It takes time, committment and money.

When you children are older, I hope that you are able to get your parish to a point where it does’t have to charge for faith formation. For most of us, we don’t have Daddy Warbucks in the congregation so we make the best compromise we can.

 

[MelbaTozt]

For RCIA, the responsibilty for the faith formation of someone wanting to join the Church is the pastor’s.

Would it be wrong to charge for RCIA? And if so, why?

(On that note, I stumbled upon a parish that does charge for RCIA.)

 

[jmcrae]

Would it be wrong to charge for RCIA? And if so, why?

When I went to RCIA we had to buy our own text books; they didn’t give them to us for free. We also had to pay for the mandatory Retreat during Lent, which was $100.00 or something like that, per person. That included dinner and three hours of lectures.

 

[KarenElissa]

Would it be wrong to charge for RCIA? And if so, why?

(On that note, I stumbled upon a parish that does charge for RCIA.)

My parish charges for RCIA. I don’t see a problem with that either, assuming that it is waived if needed (and I don’t know any parish who won’t).

I get that it is very different from the customs in many protestant churches, I’m a convert myself. But I don’t see the problem, it is just that, a different way of doing things. If parishes were with holding sacraments if people weren’t able to pay or were charging exorbitant amounts, that would be a problem. But I don’t have a problem asking people to contribute to the support of things in which they are involved.

Like others have asked, how do you plan on funding these programs if there is no charge? Saying people should tithe more sounds like a good thing, but it isn’t going to just happen. So what do you think we should do?

 

[yablabo]

Would have been a nice suggestion if you hadn’t ended it by throwing in a jab by implying we are acting like children.

I hear what you’re saying, but point in fact…if people were actually serious this issue (i.e., making sure their children receive the sacraments when they are properly disposed)…they would speak to their parish priests. It seems to me most people want to complain about the delegates who the priest and bishop has put in place to do general religious formation at the parish rather than actually solve the problem. That is why I added “let’s be adults!” If you don’t fit in that group, no worries.

– Nicole

 

[MelbaTozt]

That is why I added “let’s be adults!” If you don’t fit in that group, no worries.

– Nicole

Again, another slight. Why is it people who are the first to point out the faults of others are usually the ones who offend the most?

This discussion is not necessarily solving the problem of one family; it’s about whether or not requiring money in order to receive a sacrament is justifiable, and whether or not requiring a fee to teach the Faith is absolutely backwards-thinking when trying to reach people for Christ in our community.

This is a timely topic considering that more and more parishes are demanding payment for these services that used to be offered at the expense of the parish as a whole.

Obviously, I am not alone in this concern.

As for how I would solve the problem, it’s simple: 1. Offer all classes without a required payment, but suggest a donation.; 2. If the Parish cannot cover fancy textbooks or arts and crafts, then the classes will just have to be bare-bones. (I homeschool my four children and can testify that the greatest learning occurs when we are engaged in discussion with each other and homework is a simple narration using only pencil and paper.) Let the true need be exposed and allow the parishioners to meet those needs!; 3. Teachers should be volunteers who realize this is a sacrifice of their time and perhaps some money. If they don’t have the passion on their own to share the Faith, then what are they doing in the classroom? 4. Have bake-sales, raffles and other voluntary events to supplement the budget.; 5. Don’t exclude children who aren’t getting proper instruction at home, but welcome them as Christ would welcome them. 6. Trust, as most of our great saints did, that God will provide if we give of ourselves freely.

This reminds me so much of how our government programs for the needy have alienated the community from directly helping our neighbors. I think mandatory fees only contribute to the lack of involvement from the church. They think, “oh, parents will pay the fees so I don’t have to worry about getting involved,” much in the same way we tend to ignore the poor because, “there’s a program for that.”