SPLIT: Questions Catholics Will Not Answer.

[Old_Scholar]

OLD SCHOLAR, Sir, I have been reading this post for the last few nights and I would like to ask you a couple of questions if you don’t mind so that I might try to understand you.

You are a Christian, correct?

Yes—That is correct.

Does your faith depend on proof?

I’m not sure I understand the question here. My faith is my belief in God and Christ’s Gospel. It is the Grace of God that will save me, not the church.

So do you believe in the BIBLE ALONE , Sola Scriptura?

**Yes! I find the Scriptures are God’s Word to us for our daily living, our faith and morals. Everything we need to know for our daily lives and salvation is included in Scripture. They also tell us that:

*“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17, NASB 1995) ***

When we read that Paul is claiming that “all” Scripture is God Breathed, he is voicing his firm belief that all of the Old Testament writings, the 39 books, were “breathed” or “inspired” by God.

Likewise when the writers of the New Testament were writing their letters to the various churches, I don’t believe they thought they were writing literary masterpieces, yet knew they were writing God’s Words. God always used imperfect man to get His perfect message across. These men were divinely inspired and the Bible is God’s revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God as its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy. It reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain until the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried. All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.

If yes, why? Scripture nowhere says it is Church came before Scripture!

Scripture does indeed claim to be sufficient as I have shown you above. And the church did not come first. There was no church before Paul began writing Scripture giving instructions on how to set up a church. It took some time for all this to happen. Those who say the church came first are simply mistken. The Bible is quite clear about this.
Thank you and GOD BLESS.

Correction to above, of course I meant New Testament

Thank you for your question. Most seem to want to scream instead of seeking the truth…God Bless OS

 

[Old_Scholar]

Old Scholar,

Who said the following, and which Church carries out these orders on a daily basis, as per His instructions?

**Give us this day our Daily Bread…

This is my Body.

This is my Blood.**

&

Do this in memory of me.

?

Take your time…

**There are many churches that do this on a daily basis. There are others that do it every time they have a service, although they don’t have a service every day. Christ didn’t say do it every day, but as often as you do it, do it in remembrance of me. That’s how most handle it.

I don’t get your point.**

 

[guanophore]

i do think infants do go to heaven. That would make sense to me in my understanding of the mercy and love of God.

And what about the justice of God? What about when He banished Adam and Eve from the garden so that they would not live eternally in error?

What about original sin? If nothing unclean can enter heaven, how is it that infants can go there who have been born under sin?

How can you reject the Immaculate Conception of Mary, insisting we are all born sinful, then believe that sinful babies can enter the Holy of Holies?

It is amazing to me that God is big enough for you to let babies born under sin into heaven, but you cannot believe that he could preserve His own mother from it’s effects.

This is why i don’t think the comparison with baptism is that strong because of the differences.

Well, lets for the sake of discussion, we limit it to males. What differenecs are there between circumcision and baptism that make it a poor comparison?

 

[guanophore]

This is how the word “food” is used in my greek lexicon of the NT–Metaphorically it means nourishment (John 4:32. In John 6:27, 55, bró̄sis is used in the sense of food for the soul, meaning spiritual nourishment from above which is offered to Christians through Christ.

This is where i need to understand what you mean by your belief that Jesus is speaking “literally”. I looked up again in lexicon some key words in this chapter that deals with eating and drinking. Here is what i found:
“flesh” in verse 51-- Metaphorically in John 6:51, “and the bread . . . is my flesh,” meaning that Jesus Himself is the principle of life and nutrition to the regenerated soul; see vv. 53–56 (cf. Matt. 26:26)

This is what the word “eat” means in 50-51-53
Spiritually to feed by faith and be sustained in a spiritual and eternal life (John 6:50, 51, 53).

Fundamentalists tend to think it “either/or” categories, where those from Apostolic Traditions speak in “both/and”.

For Catholics, the “literal” interpretation is what the author meant. Where “literalist” would refer to what the reader thinks the author meant. Both can also be figurative, symbolic, and metaphorical.

Since the catholic church is saying there is a connection between this passage and the supper accounts we should expect to see some connection with the passover in a strong way.

Absolutely! One cannot properly understand either passage without Passover. Glad we can agree on something, and glad you did not use that dreaded “your church” phrase.

 

[Mannyfit75]

**There are many churches that do this on a daily basis. There are others that do it every time they have a service, although they don’t have a service every day. Christ didn’t say do it every day, but as often as you do it, do it in remembrance of me. That’s how most handle it.

I don’t get your point.**

In Acts, the Apostles and the disciples and Christians break bread in the first day of the week. There have been Protestant services that have the last supper on a monthly basis.

What a way to degrade Jesus’ commandment. “Do this in remembrance of me.”

 

[Pwrlftr]

In Acts, the Apostles and the disciples and Christians break bread in the first day of the week. There have been Protestant services that have the last supper on a monthly basis.

What a way to degrade Jesus’ commandment. “Do this in remembrance of me.”

I’m not sure what your point is Manny. Your church at one point discouraged fequent communion for lay people. I should probably rephrase that and say that the practice was not to receive communion frequently.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m not sure what your point is Manny. Your church at one point discouraged fequent communion for lay people. I should probably rephrase that and say that the practice was not to receive communion frequently.

The Church discourage communion to those Catholics who live the life of immorality such those who advocate abortions and have sexual immorality. Catholics are encourage to frequent confession first and then received Holy Communion in the state of grace.

 

[jmcrae]

i do think infants do go to heaven.

On what basis? According to you, they can’t make a verbal profession of faith.

And according to you, because they can’t make a verbal profession of faith (which is how they would “get saved” in a Protestant church), they shouldn’t receive the Sacrament of Baptism, which would join them to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and wash away their Original Sin.

Anyone who dies in sin (including Original Sin, which is simply the lack of a relationship with Jesus Christ) goes to Hell, right?

So, how do you make this extraordinary exception for infants?

Or are you under the impression that we are “born saved” and then somehow later on “lose” our “original salvation”?

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;3243004]On what basis? According to you, they can’t make a verbal profession of faith.

They don’t. The question is: can God apply the power of Christ to these infants?

And according to you, because they can’t make a verbal profession of faith (which is how they would “get saved” in a Protestant church), they shouldn’t receive the Sacrament of Baptism, which would join them to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and wash away their Original Sin.

Baptism would not be the means of salvation for an infant.

Anyone who dies in sin (including Original Sin, which is simply the lack of a relationship with Jesus Christ) goes to Hell, right?

May not be for infants though. The scriptures really don’t say.

So, how do you make this extraordinary exception for infants?

On the mercy and love of God.

Or are you under the impression that we are “born saved” and then somehow later on “lose” our “original salvation”?

no.

 

[jmcrae]

They don’t. The question is: can God apply the power of Christ to these infants?

Yes, by means of Baptism.

Baptism would not be the means of salvation for an infant.

Actually, it’s the only means available to them, if they can’t make a personal profession of faith.

 

[justasking4]

Yes, by means of Baptism.

Actually, it’s the only means available to them, if they can’t make a personal profession of faith.

What about those who die and not baptised? Are they condemned?

 

[Mannyfit75]

What about those who die and not baptised? Are they condemned?

They are left the the mercy of God.

 

[jmcrae]

What about those who die and not baptised? Are they condemned?

There is Baptism of Desire - if they would have wanted to be baptised, then they can receive the graces of baptism at the moment of death.

There is also Baptism of Blood - if they died as martyrs for the faith, then they would receive the graces of baptism at the moment of death, as well.

Apart from these, yes, they go to Hell.

 

[justasking4]

There is Baptism of Desire - if they would have wanted to be baptised, then they can receive the graces of baptism at the moment of death.

There is also Baptism of Blood - if they died as martyrs for the faith, then they would receive the graces of baptism at the moment of death, as well.

Apart from these, yes, they go to Hell.

What about infants who don’t have any of these desires? Are they condemned?

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know how many times i have thought to myself that i’m so grateful that i don’t live next door to so many catholics on this forum. I don’t think i would be alive today if i did.

Had you considered approaching the forum with a bit more kindness, less hostility, and more openness? Personally I am not accustomed to annihilating people even when they do behave this way, but if you were to cathect a more charitable attitude, perhaps you would engender more of that in return?

 

[jmcrae]

What about infants who don’t have any of these desires? Are they condemned?

If such infants exist (there is no evidence either way), then yes.

The meaning of Original Sin is that the default destination of all human beings is Hell, so if they have not been incorporated into Christ in some manner, either before death or at the moment of death, then they will go to Hell. It is not dependant on actual or personal sin; that’s why we must all become Christians as early in life as possible.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
I don’t know how many times i have thought to myself that i’m so grateful that i don’t live next door to so many catholics on this forum. I don’t think i would be alive today if i did.

guanophore
Had you considered approaching the forum with a bit more kindness, less hostility, and more openness? Personally I am not accustomed to annihilating people even when they do behave this way, but if you were to cathect a more charitable attitude, perhaps you would engender more of that in return?

i have treated people here with respect even when i don’t agree with them. i have never never name called anyone nor implied something negative towards others here.

When i don’t understand what they mean i ask for clarification so as not to misrepresent. Even with this i suspect i still not have completely understood someone.

These forums are quite limited as a communication method and can easily be missunderstood. Its not like having a verbal communication with someone where you can immediately ask for clarification. So many assumptions now have been made about me that it no longer matters what i say to some. i’m anti catholic and the enemy.

Actually i’m suprised somewhat with some because these kinds of forums give all of us an opportunity to be challenged and work on hopefully come to a better understanding what we believe. i know for myself it has benefitted me greatly with all the dialogues i have been–including the challenging ones and the nasty ones.

Let me encourage pershaps to put me on your ignore list since i gather from you that you are extremely hostile to me and i suspect you have a hatred towards me and hatred can easily turn into sin. See Matthew 5:21-26. Only you can know this though. I don’t want to be the one that causes you to stumble.

 

[guanophore]

They don’t. The question is: can God apply the power of Christ to these infants?

Why would He? You say He would not even apply His power to spare his own mother from original sin!

Why would He be more likely to apply saving grace to infants who die than He would for those whose parents asked in faith for him to do so?

Baptism would not be the means of salvation for an infant.

Oh? Why is that? Are you saying that God’s power is not present in baptism? It is more present without it?

 

[guanophore]

Let me encourage pershaps to put me on your ignore list since i gather from you that you are extremely hostile to me and i suspect you have a hatred towards me and hatred can easily turn into sin. See Matthew 5:21-26. Only you can know this though. I don’t want to be the one that causes you to stumble.

No such good luck for you, ja4. I have decided that I will not let one single slanderous, pejorative, calumnous or bigoted post from you go unanswered. I do not hate you at all, in fact, I feel sorry for you. You have been so terribly misled about the Catholic faith, and make so many rude and inappropriate statements that I find it painful. I am sure, inasmuch as I am hard of heart, if these are painful to me they are much more painful to Jesus. I am sure it makes His heart ache at the way you treat His Holy Bride. May His grace preserve me from all sin.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Ps-- thanks for the invite to email you. I will need to decline for now since i have only a limited amount of time and (this is not against you personally) but i don’t trust people on this forum and i don’t want anyone to be to be able to trace where i live.

LOL JA4 - The Holy Spirit already knows where you live and He tells us everything we need to know!

You can run but you can’t hide…

James