So, in essence the gates of Hell DID prevail against the Church for ~1100 years, then all became right again with the reformation? This doesn’t square with Jesus’ promise in Matthew. Over a millennium of misguided Christians, most of them doomed for following the errant teachings of the Church? This isn’t plausible.
What about those doctrines not taught by Jesus and the Apostles i.e. indulgences, purgatory and the marian doctrines? Must a catholic believe those to?
I don’t understand you. Are you saying these quotes and there are others from secular historians are not true?Oh honey,honey-sorry but your wrong.Tacitus talks about christians during the neronian era-resurrection is not mentioned/Flavius Josephus quote is highly disputed with most scholars speaking against"testamonium Flavianum" as and authentic.thallus’s writing so vague and fragmented a questionable as to be useless.the resurrection is still a matter of faith-and not of history.
If they never had any fruit in their lives to begin with were they ever real Christians to begin with?
What is OASA?
Your answer helps but it seems to me that with so many catholics that there would be at least a few thousand with “a very high level of grace” pray this prayer that would in a very short time release all the souls of purgatory. I don’t understand why your chuch would not do this.Your question does not make any logical sense to me JA4. Do you imagine to think that purgatory only applies to Catholics? Some number of non-Catholics do manage to get to heaven too believe it or not.But it may be for no other reason than because we pray for everyone and offer daily masses all around the world wherever Catholics are for all sinners and for fallen away brethren as well as our enemies.
There have been many billions of souls that have died since the time of Adam and Eve’s fall. I can safely say from the scripture evidence (e.g. ‘nothing impure can enter heaven’ and ‘many will try to enter heaven but few will be able to’) that there are far fewer souls in purgatory than there are in hell. I can also say with reasonable confidence from the private revelations of some of the saints that there are quite a large number of souls in purgatory who suffer for a substantial time and need our prayers.
One account mentions that even some of the most pious and devout of our Catholic sisters (e.g. Carmelite nuns) can spend on average of 40 years of our earth time before promoted to heaven - even with masses being said for them and daily prayers! People just don’t quite “get it” - getting into heaven requires absolute purity. It is NOT easy to get into heaven and if not for Jesus and God’s healing and purifying grace it would be impossible. To get to heaven we must love God and Jesus with our WHOLE HEART and if we sin we must go, no run, to confession if one commits a serious sin. We also must partaking of the Eucharist as often as we can to avail themselves of the graces necessary to have eternal life.
So rest assured Purgatory is most definitely not empty and these souls are in desperate need of our prayers - we are talking many many millions - some have been there for many centuries and some are made to wait and suffer there for all eternity since they were so enamored to sin but by God’s grace were granted a final mercy.
We actually have religious orders and special prayer co-fraternities especially dedicated to praying for these poor souls. Every single mass the Catholic Church offers up to God includes in the liturgy a special prayer for the dead. When God said “love your neighbor” He was not kidding. We are REQUIRED to give charity both to the living and the dead. Just because someone dies does not relieve us of our obligation to be charitable to them - souls are immortal and they are still our neighbors.
The beauty of God’s Kingdom though is a principal of reciprocation. If we help any of these poor souls they will be eternally happy to pray prostrate before God in heaven 24/7 (and even while still suffering in purgatory) for us. These holy souls still in purification have the joy of knowing they are saved and pine to be with God. Because they joyfully accept the suffering of purification the can offer some of the most profound intercessional power imaginable to help us here on earth.
There are believed to be so many souls in purgatory that it would take many years of many people praying 24/7 and especially offering daily masses to promote them all - but don’t forget many people are dieing new daily.
The UN estimates that population of the planet is growing by at least 85 million annually. The death rate will increase proportionate to that number. Fair estimates of global death rates are on the order of about 155,012 daily! Of these numbers only perhaps 34% even call themselves Christian. But the number of “true” Christians in God’s eyes is no doubt substantially less than this. I will stop here though and won’t project a rough ballpark “probable” estimate of the alarming numbers implied about the number who “won’t make it” to purgatory or heaven. The Church does not like to do “numbers” since this is purely a matter up to God; and we saw from OT scripture the anger that God took against those performing a human census of His people. But its fair to take Jesus at His word that “few enter heaven”. So the point I am trying to make here is we would have to do a lot of 24/7 praying with a lot of very holy and pious Christians praying to clear purgatory and keep it clear.
Does it bother you that prayer can be so powerful? It should not since scripture assures us that it can be - especially when offered in conjunction with the sacrifice of the mass.
FYI - the numbers mentioned in St. Gertrude prayers are not guarantees unless one is in a very high level of grace. Few Christians can attain what we call a “full plenary” indulgence since the requirements for holiness is very high. So we usually fall short but get a “partial indulgence” that only God knows precisely how much He merits to the benefit of another soul. This is why Catholics in particular are called a Holy Nation and a Royal Priesthood - each of us is required to keep ourselves in as holy a state as possible so our prayers can be of greater benefit to others and the earth at large. What do you think is holding back God’s wrath and letting us maintain some peace? It’s the masses we offer to God where we ask God to remember the merits of His Son Jesus’s suffering. But any prayer by any individual benefits these souls infinitely more so than no prayer! So every Christian should pray as a matter of charity for those departed. No prayer is wasted in heaven.
Sorry to be so long here but this is a special dimension of The Church that is of interest to me. I hope I answered your questions.
James
What would be the criteria you would use to show that a doctrine is false?
ja4, as I read the past several posts you have put up on this board, I wonder what you are really up to here. You skip like a stone over the surface of the water, bouncing of one thing and then another, without ever dipping into the lake.
These are not good forums to get into much depth. Trying to respond to multiple posts takes time and thats why i limit my responses.
When yoiu compare the doctrine of purgatory with scripture you find there are problems in the details.
Are you saying that the pope and Tetzel knew that the selling of indulgences was an abuse but did it anyway?
If something were to be false what would be the criteria to falsify a doctrine?
The problem would still be that you have to have someone in authority to make that decision. So long as every Moe, Larry, and Curly are told that they personally have the authority to interpret the scriptures just because they have a Bible and can read it, you get precisely what you have today. People leaving out parts of the Gospel as not being “core” and so IMO they immediately begin preaching a different and deficient gospel.
There’s always PMs .
I disagree, except that IMO, the “problems in the details” are with those who try to deny this doctrine. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
Did it ever occur to you that it may have started off with good intentions and got badly out of hand? That happens all the time in human affairs. Are you then saying that guys like Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen aren’t every bit as guilty as Tetzel is?
With regard to Protestantism? I’d say twisting the interpretation of scriptures in order to concoct new doctrines that are not actually taught in the Bible. As I’ve said before, the fundamental error of Protestantism is Sola Scriptura, because it is the error upon which every other modern post reformation error is founded.
It’s difficult to tell from your polemics.
Then why do you contest against the Holy Spirit when He has used the Catholic Church to our salvation? My Testimony.
Based upon the things that you have said in your posts so far versus what I have learned in my own personal study of the Word of God, (Remember here, that according to your own doctrine of Sola Scriptura, my interpretation of scripture is just as valid and authoritative as yours or your pastor’s) and Christian history, I would say that you know far too little about Catholicism to be making the kinds of allegations and attacks that you have posted here to date.
Again…open the thread and support your position with facts and cite your sources (something that you have not done so far, and which makes all your “scholarship” grossly suspect.
Where did Our Lord teach just the opposite? You expect me to let that remark slide just because you allege it without the least substantiation. You could be lying through your teeth. You need to make a real factual case for this , or refrain from making baseless allegations.
Gee… I have read them and I don’t see it. In fact I did some research on your reference to the letter of St. Gregory the Great (Link) and you pulled it out of context and then twisted its meaning. I think that those who follow that link and read the whole letter will come away with a better understanding of it and some serious doubts about your own supposed “scholarship”
Again…allegation without any substantiation. Cite sources…if you don’t then we can only conclude that they do not really exist and that causes any rational person to question your veracity and “scholarship”.
Each and every one supported by the Word of God and far far better than the gross error in doctrine of Sola Scriptura, upon which you base your every doctrine, which explains why there are so very many errors in Protestant theology. You have displayed some of them yourself in your posts in this thread and others.
Hold it right there!
Answered this already. You clearly are using excerpts from the ECF in your posts without having ever actually read the documents yourself.
Hair splitting…
but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.
False teachers have always been in the Church. And they always will be. And it is in the heart of the Church, in her sacraments, in Scripture and Tradition that they are identified. I assure you that false teachers arising within the Church are not teaching “more” falsely than deceivers outside it who claim some OTHER authority than that Christ promised to His Church. But the authority of the Church lies in promulgated doctrine, not in individual teachers.
First, I entirely disagree. Second, if it appears that Catholics use Scripture to support doctrine rather than the other way around, it is because no Catholic doctrine may contradict Scripture. When something, like the Assumption, is considered for promulgation as doctrine, there is great “searching of the Scriptures” to weigh the teaching in light of the entire Word of God. So what may appear to be forcing the Scripture support the doctrine is actually contemplating Scripture in confirmation of the doctrine. A good understanding of doctrinal development would be a handy tool for you.
Love God with all your heart, mind soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
Will you read a link that I post? This is a pithy little essay that gives a fifty-cent view of the question. For a more enriched view, see Newman’s *Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. *
Start “lite”. Try The Faith of the Early Fathers by Jurgens. It has a doctrinal index. You can go “in depth” after you’ve got the 30,000-foot view. Besides, the Fathers, like Scripture, often can be misunderstood if taken as if they were an operator’s manual.
Absolutely not. One of the most valuable of the early Fathers, whose instruction in the orthodox faith is brilliant, also turned out to be a heretic.
Probably. That is only a guess. But the men we call “Fathers” were definitely learned men. Most were priests, bishops or deacons. So they would have had easier access to the entire Bible than the average layman.
Mostly not. The Early Fathers wrote in Greek, with the Latin Fathers coming a long a little later. They would have used the Septuagint OT and, of course, the NT was written in Greek. Later, the Latin Fathers would have used the Vulgate.
You call your self “catholic” and seem to think that you believe in what the Catholic Church taught before it was “corrupted” by Constantine.
Not at all Ja4! I would have to point to the great wealth of knowledge and documentation that the Church points to in its teachings. This is something that very few n-Cs seem to have, yet they claim the authority to interpret the Word of God in ways that are contrary to 2,000 years of the faith, including the New Testament itself.
No pun intended when I say, “Welcome to the Reformation!” This is precisely what I am telling you. The doctrinal errors of the Protestant Reformation and their modern doctrinal step children, (because most don’t even agree with the reformers any more) are (IMO) the fulfillment of that reference in the New Testament.
Because the very idea that the scriptures are the only source and authority for beliefs is a totally unscriptural error to begin with. That being the case, why should we attempt to justify a belief using a doctrinal premise that we reject as without even scriptural basis? That would be idiotic and inconsistent!
Certainly I can! How Is A Catholic Saved?, and please feel free to show me where what I have stated is unscriptural. I don’t think you can.
Where would you, as a lay person need to set boundaries? Do you know all that the church knows? The doctrines that have developed are the natural and logical progression of both scripture and what has come down to us from the ECF.
And continue to do so. Why aren’t they used in your community’s teaching? These are people who knew the apostles personally and some who were even baptized by them. they served God and His church diligently and most of them paid for it with their lives. Doesn’t it seem odd to you that they have so little place in your instruction in your faith?!
I fully agree!
So far as I have read, yes. Either that or they show where the logical basis for what has developed comes from.
Unsure, however, again and again I have dealt with n-Cs who have told me that they believe that they did. My response to them is one of some skepticism and confusion because my answer then becomes, “if that is true then why don’t your doctrines match theirs?” A prime example is Ignatius of Antioch’s letter to the church at Smyrna in chapters 7 & 8.
If you mean did they speak, read, and write Greek, I’d say almost certainly. Did they speak, read, and write Aramaic? I’d say very probably. Did they know Hebrew? Probably not, because they appear to be mostly commoners. By the time of Christ Hebrew was as nearly as dead a language as Latin is today.
i would agree with this so lets go with this. Must a person belong to the catholic church to be saved?
Though the Catholic Church teaches “Yes”, I personally believe that other Christians will be saved as well.