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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
That seems to be in agreement with Protestant beliefs.
I’m back to being puzzled again. Is this supposed to be a mystery that the human mind cannot comprehend?
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C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
That’s incredible and intriguing!
Interesting. My wife, who used to be a Catholic, taught me how to do the genuflect. (She still has a positive image of the Church, by the way. She likes the sense of reverence toward God that she gets when she enters a Catholic church.)
J
jmcrae
Guest
The form of the bread and the wine become the substance of Christ’s Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. What we consume when we receive the Eucharist, therefore, is Christ Himself, present in a physical way to us, by means of the forms of the bread and wine, whole, alive, and entire.
And yes, it’s difficult to understand. We take it on faith because Jesus proclaimed it and commands us to eat and drink it. He would not command us to do the impossible. The difficult, perhaps - but not the impossible.
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Yes, I understand celebrating the new covenant. When we take communion in my charismatic Baptist church, we celebrate the new covenant as well as meditate on what Christ has done for us at the cross. As far as I know, communion and baptism are the only rites Jesus instituted for the new covenant church, so the purpose of communion must be vitally important.
Without his death on our behalf, as our substitute, there would be no salvation, no eternity in heaven, no sharing in the divine nature of the Trinity, no forgiveness, no power over sin, no healing, no guarantee of physical provision, etc.
As I understand, on that, Protestants and Catholics agree.
And I believe we can unite on that basis. I only know of one thing Pope John Paul II said. He told twenty-six leaders of several denominations in Cameroon, “Indeed, is it not the duty of every follower of Christ to work for the unity of all Christians?”
That’s what I’m trying and learning how to do by God’s grace. I do love and appreciate all my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ.
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
I think I can speak for most evangelicals when I say we believe—and I assumed you do as well—that Jesus’ glorified, resurrected body has scars on it from his crucifixion. I know of a number of Christians who went to heaven and came back who said Jesus actually has holes in his hands and feet where the nails were.Just curious–why would you choose to question whether this manifestation of Christ’s body is present, rather than, say all the other ways Jesus was present on earth? For example, why didn’t you say,
- “Or is his person (as a babe wrapped in swaddling clothes) actually present?”
- “Or is his person (as a supernatural self who could walk on water) actually present?”
- “Or is his person (in his glorified, resurrected body) actually present?”
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jmcrae
Guest
When Jesus comes to us in the Eucharist, He looks like bread and wine. We do not see the holes in His hands and feet, at that particular moment. This is not to say that they may not be there - likely, they are, but hidden to our eyes.
But Christ Himself is embodied in what appears to be bread, and what appears to be wine. When we consume them, we are taking Him physically into our bodies, and joining with Him in something like a marital embrace where His body is touching ours, and our body is touching His, and we are physically inseparable during those moments of Holy Communion.
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
I don’t know what the difference is between the substance and the chemical make-up. I’ve sort of resigned to the thought that it can’t be understood. I imagine someone saying it is similar to the way the oneness and differences between members of the Trinity can’t be understood—we don’t fully comprehend how the Father & Son are one, but we believe in them anyway.
No. He rested by feeding on the substance of the Father?
If you say yes, I would then say, “The substance of the Father is his love, that is, his Spirit, truth, righteousness, Word, holiness, glory, life (eternal), light, nature, essence, unchangeableness, etc.” And “God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us” (Romans 5:5)!
In that sense, we celebrate communion (common union) constantly because his love is constantly in us! (I’m getting carried away.
)Blessings to all!
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
If eating means a continual receiving, then anyone who eats has eternal life.
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Amen, jm!He [Jesus] would not command us to do the impossible.
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jmcrae
Guest
“Substance” is a philosophical term. It comes from the idea that, in Heaven, there is a prototype, or “substance” for every thing that exists on earth. For example, every chair emanates from the prototype “chair substance” that exists in Heaven. Its physical composition - wood, plastic, stone, or metal; no legs, one leg, three legs, four legs, or more; each chair looks different than every other chair, but they are all recognizable as “chairs” because all of them contain the substance “chair” which comes from Heaven, and which is recognizable to the human spirit as “chair.”
in the same way, all who perceive with the eyes of faith perceive Jesus in the bread and wine - this is His substance - even though hidden in the form and material of the bread and wine that are broken and shared in Holy Communion.
Uh - actually she was referring to when Mary placed the infant Jesus into the feeding trough at Bethlehem, as a sign that one day, He would become food for our salvation.No. He rested by feeding on the substance of the Father?
If you say yes, I would then say, “The substance of the Father is his love, that is, his Spirit, truth, righteousness, Word, holiness, glory, life (eternal), light, nature, essence, unchangeableness, etc.” And “God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us” (Romans 5:5)!
In that sense, we celebrate communion (common union) constantly because his love is constantly in us! (I’m getting carried away.
And to you!
J
jmcrae
Guest
Eating means eating. Stick to the plain meaning of the words, and don’t look for symbolism that isn’t there.
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David89
Guest
"Cal Fullerton:
David89:
The greek word used is ‘trogon’ which means gnawing or chewing - How do you interpret this as to mean continual receiving?
Even if you were correct you would then be interpreting a verse such as John 6:54 as “Anyone who does continually receive my eternal life has eternal life, and I will raise that person up on the same day”… Are you saying Jesus disciples and many jews walked away from him because of saying " - if you have eternal life you have eternal life? how does that interpretation even make sense? And what makes you think Jesus was talking symbolically?
The thing is how do go from the word eating, to the word continual receiving?
The greek word used is ‘trogon’ which means gnawing or chewing - How do you interpret this as to mean continual receiving?
Even if you were correct you would then be interpreting a verse such as John 6:54 as “Anyone who does continually receive my eternal life has eternal life, and I will raise that person up on the same day”… Are you saying Jesus disciples and many jews walked away from him because of saying " - if you have eternal life you have eternal life? how does that interpretation even make sense? And what makes you think Jesus was talking symbolically?
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
He certainly is food for our salvation.“Substance” is a philosophical term. It comes from the idea that, in Heaven, there is a prototype, or “substance” for every thing that exists on earth. For example, every chair emanates from the prototype “chair substance” that exists in Heaven. Its physical composition - wood, plastic, stone, or metal; no legs, one leg, three legs, four legs, or more; each chair looks different than every other chair, but they are all recognizable as “chairs” because all of them contain the substance “chair” which comes from Heaven, and which is recognizable to the human spirit as “chair.”
in the same way, all who perceive with the eyes of faith perceive Jesus in the bread and wine - this is His substance - even though hidden in the form and material of the bread and wine that are broken and shared in Holy Communion.
Uh - actually she was referring to when Mary placed the infant Jesus into the feeding trough at Bethlehem, as a sign that one day, He would become food for our salvation.
And to you!
You may have struck a nerve with your word “prototype” and your example of a chair.
I’ve heard stories (on the popular Christian program “It’s Supernatural”) of people who have gone to heaven and saw a room of body parts. These parts are for people who have a malfunctioning liver or a dysfunctional pancreas, etc. Some prophetic people—sometimes called “seers”—have seen an angel put one of these parts into a person after which the person was healed. Some of the parts remain unclaimed because the person who needs them does not have the faith to receive them.
Is that similar to what you are talking about? Are you saying that an invisible but very real prototype or pattern or copy of Jesus’ body is attached to the bread?
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
I would go to John 4:31-34, which is another place where the word “eat” is apparently used by Jesus to refer to receiving spiritual sustenance or spiritual strength or something like that:
Meanwhile his disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat something.” But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.”
Then his disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought him food?”
“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.”
The natural man (in the above case, Jesus’ disciples) is focused on things of this earth; the spiritual man is focused on spiritual things.
I would say people walked away because to their natural minds Jesus seemed to be referring to cannibalism.
I hope Jesus is living in your heart, David. If so, you’re my brother in Him! Either way, God’s blessings to you!:tiphat:
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Linda_Marie
Guest
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
That’s good. I agree he is the food of Life for us.
That’s helpful. It makes me think of the word “substance” as it’s used in the ancient creeds concerning the Trinity.
As I restudied John 6 this evening, I was reminded that Jesus isn’t talking about the Eucharist (the ceremony called communion or the Lord’s Supper) here. That’s the first thing I needed to reestablish in my mind, if not yours also.
Actually, as I was thinking about this topic today, it occurred to me that I might be more accurate if I say Jesus was on a spiritual plain when he said, “Eat my flesh.” It might be better for me to say it that way than to say he was speaking symbolically. Really, I believe we are taking in (literally spiritually eating) the Life of God constantly as born again believers in Christ. Do you agree?
Are you saying that the Catholic Church believes that we share in the Divine Life of Jesus by drinking the blood (accident wine) during communion? In other words, are you saying that one can receive salvation simply by participating in communion INSTEAD of by repenting and becoming of follower of Christ? (I don’t think that’s what you mean.)
Or are you saying that an extra dose or wave of the Holy Spirit (Divine Life) comes into a participator in communion when they drink the blood (wine)? To me, the Divine Life (Holy Spirit, perfect righteousness, truth, love, light) is the substance of God—what he really is.
Interdenominational communication can be difficult but I believe our Lord wants us to work at it.
Again, I appreciate the grace that I sense on you.
P
PRmerger
Guest
So here’s the question, Cal. What words would Jesus have had to say in order to have you believe the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist?
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PRmerger
Guest
We do receive salvation simply by participating in Communion–(Jesus said it. We believe it.) But it’s not an either/or thing.
As I’m sure you know, the Catholic answer to most things is both/and.
So we must also repent and become followers of Christ.
The Eucharist is our One Flesh Union with Jesus.
Just like the marital embrace is our One Flesh Union with our beloved.
We renew our UNION with our Beloved when we partake in the One Flesh Union. (Read this to be both within marriage and within our relationship with Jesus.)
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
I’m still working on what the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist is. I’m getting closer, thanks to you and the others here.
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
I’m greatly relieved by your last sentence.
I’m puzzled by your first sentence.
What if someone becomes a follower of Christ but does not participate in Catholic Communion? Is he or she saved? What does “saved” mean in Catholic language?The Eucharist is our One Flesh Union with Jesus.
Just like the marital embrace is our One Flesh Union with our beloved.
We renew our UNION with our Beloved when we partake in the One Flesh Union. (Read this to be both within marriage and within our relationship with Jesus.)
Okay, I understand that. Communion is a renewal of the covenant we entered into when we decided to make Jesus our personal Lord. I got that! :clapping: I like it.
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