SPLIT: Those Who Leave the Catholic Faith

[TheApologist]

Since when is “the Church” the RC Magisterium??

I meant the papacy…as in Peter…as in the guy who was succeeded by a guy and so on and so on…and guess what…that line still exists. It exists to led the Church on earth. Christ gave the authority to the papacy and the papacy leads the Church and that Church is the Catholic Church.

 

[TheApologist]

Are you saying that the RCC teaches that there are those outside of the Body of Christ that will be saved?

Of course, God can bestow grace on his people at will. Also if one does not have adequate knowledge of God’s Word or the Church and they live a good life, it cannot be said that the person will go to Hell for not being baptized. Also none of us can judge whether or not a certain individual will go to Hell, Heaven, Purgatory.

 

[dessert]

This is a very interesting thread as I was away for about 40 years. It is eirry to talk about it and even gives me the goosbumps.
To listen to All and some of the otheres is like I am on the other side of the fence looking back at myself. I am a cradel Catholic and even that expression would be hard for a n-C to understand. I read what you guys are saying and it is what I used to believe. What convinced me to come back was the prayers of my family and the unrest in the n-C. Was I in sin? Totally, would not have made it to heaven. But I had to get over to this side of the fence to see it. Not -forgotten now forgiven. Dessert

 

[mlldrl]

Are you saying that the RCC teaches that there are those outside of the Body of Christ that will be saved?

No, not WILL be saved. MAY be saved. I know there was a post on this earlier. God is infinite in mercy. He may save anyone He pleases.

 

[TheApologist]

This is a very interesting thread as I was away for about 40 years. It is eirry to talk about it and even gives me the goosbumps.
To listen to All and some of the otheres is like I am on the other side of the fence looking back at myself. I am a cradel Catholic and even that expression would be hard for a n-C to understand. I read what you guys are saying and it is what I used to believe. What convinced me to come back was the prayers of my family and the unrest in the n-C. Was I in sin? Totally, would not have made it to heaven. But I had to get over to this side of the fence to see it. Not -forgotten now forgiven. Dessert

I’m not sure I understand you correctly. You were a cradle-Catholic, you left the Church, and then came back?

 

[dessert]

I’m not sure I understand you correctly. You were a cradle-Catholic, you left the Church, and then came back?

Yes I married outside the Church and am now wanting to get my marriage validated that is what my priest says don’t say blessed as that is an old term.
My DH and I skipped around to many different denom. and then I just went to several then neither of us went to any.
They were all so dry and lacking in respect and a lot closed up like trying on new clothes a little ridiculus trying to find something to fit me.
I attended CC with my mom on occasion like mom day and some funerals but knew in the bac of my mind I was not being obefient to the faith.
My godmother was still praying for me to come back and give it a try and since my DH didn’t want to go anymore and the assembly was getting way to far out people falling over in the pews all the time I said I would to her before she died but it still took me 6 more years before I felt so lost well i won’t go into too much detail I went back on EAster Sunday last year, first time.
It was so quiet and peacefull it probably saved my life. No one came over to bug me now maybe that would bother you but the other churches people had their hands all over evryone else and you never knew what was going to happen.
The priest came over and it took awhile before I could actually trust talking to him because I felt stupid not knowing what to do here i was suppose to be a Catholic.
I was quite arrogant but really uneducated because I did things like I was in a loud church but it was wonderful to pray the Our Father in a group again, never ever done in another church never.
Good thing they had missals I learned alot and the priest kept a good eye on me and I just watched him and did what he did. I didn’t go to my mom’s CC because the one I chose to go to was the one i went to CC school in when I was little. I also had a couple cousins there. A lot of my CC family did not believe I was serious which I guess I could expect because of my behavior anyways. My in-law N-CC were aghast you would have thought i commited tyranny and the looks I got were awful and I soon learned these nice sweet people were now going to treat me differently and the table is turning. There is a justice. My MIL was a CC brought up in the same CChurch 20 years earlier she is having thoughts, I hope, maybe she could return. My SIL grew up in the parish I now go to, what I know now is I have come home like Dorothy on the Wiz. There were a lot of people praying for me and much stronger prayers then I ever imagined. It was like a wild toad ride when I was away and I was so far out of grace with God the line was streched thin. My first encounters with talk was EWTN and the forum priests answering questions trying hard to get in to the lines was hard but one was praying all the time for me I think. It took a long long time for me to trust a religion again and I didn’t know my own that much, this is probably a big issue is the trust, it is knd of a foster thing like going to family to family don’t you think? That is maybe what is stopping All and we have been on this forum about the same amount of time trust was soooo hard to open up and spill your sins and trust that what you are believeing is right this time and not a wrong turn.
I try to read the Catechism most because it has the basic guidelines and is forgiving and shows the fathers love. Dessert

 

[dessert]

I don’t think that is true at all. All Protestant denominations have Christ as their central focus.

I have to disagree with you on this and I don’t disagree much as many will tell you.
They do not have a true worship of Jesus the Christ.
Mostly there focus is their noise and the minister and each other and very seldom communion, they jump around and they do say Jesus maybe some but it is a lot of emotionalism. Kind of like at a football game which many even said to me pretend you are cheering for the team! Dessert

 

[TheApologist]

It is so beautiful that you’ve tried to come back to the church, I will pray for you!

Mostly there focus is their noise and the minister and each other and very seldom communion, they jump around and they do say Jesus maybe some but it is a lot of emotionalism. Kind of like at a football game which many even said to me pretend you are cheering for the team! Dessert

I’m guessing they simply believe communion is either bread and wine or maybe a symbol? That’s what I love about the Catholic Church, every Sunday we come before the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord who has given Himself for us. It truly is beautiful. One young Protestant lady who had come with friends said something along the lines of “Catholics are truly blest to have the Eucharist.” I think she meant along the lines of “the Catholic belief in the Eucharist must be so amazing to them, they must feel truly blest.” Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is the epitome of the entire Catholic faith. Jesus our Lord comes to us.

 

[dessert]

So you believe that all Catholics who now go to non-Catholic churches are Hellbound?

It is really good to clarify these issues for the lurkers.

Yes, when I was away from the CC I was not in communion with Jesus, or the sacraaments or prayer or the Echarist or reconciled with God, maybe with others as a “good” person but there were many secret sins. I was in darkness. On the broad path. Dessert

 

[TheApologist]

Yes, when I was away from the CC I was not in communion with Jesus, or the sacraaments or prayer or the Echarist or reconciled with God, maybe with others as a “good” person but there were many secret sins. I was in darkness. On the broad path. Dessert

We shouldn’t say every single denominations are completely Hellbound. Some Protestants are more holy than some Catholics and some Catholics are more holy than some Protestants. We should all seek the full Truth and hope the Living God will have mercy on all of our souls on Judgement Day.

 

[Atemi]

I meant the papacy…as in Peter…as in the guy who was succeeded by a guy and so on and so on…and guess what…that line still exists. It exists to led the Church on earth. Christ gave the authority to the papacy and the papacy leads the Church and that Church is the Catholic Church.

Well I asked the Orthodox who were there as well and they say it ain’t true.

How is it that half the Catholic Church never got that memo in 2000 years?

 

[Atemi]

Are you saying that the RCC teaches that there are those outside of the Body of Christ that will be saved?

Of course, God can bestow grace on his people at will.

So there are those that can be saved outside of the Catholic Church (the Body of Christ)?

You do understand that that is against Catholic dogma (extra ecclesiam nulla salus), right?

 

[Atemi]

So you believe that all Catholics who now go to non-Catholic churches are Hellbound?

Yes

Really?

Wow.

Did you find this out on your own? Where did you get such a huge revelation from God to know such things?

when I was away from the CC I was not in communion with Jesus, or the sacraaments or prayer or the Echarist or reconciled with God, maybe with others as a “good” person but there were many secret sins. I was in darkness. On the broad path.

I am sorry you failed Him so and had no faith to speak of. And a life of sin too?

Maybe that is why you believed you would go to Hell.

I would not juxtapose your personal failures in faith onto others though. That is not very wise, IMV.

 

[Atemi]

The only error I see there is that you assert that it is error, when Catholics have again and again shown you Biblically, historically, and Traditionally, that statements that you have made are inaccurate representations of Catholic belief and teachings.

I have not met any of those Catholics yet.

I am sorry.

The Catholic Church a sieve? In your dreams.

I understand that many Catholics have their head in the sand over this. They especially don’t like it when non-Catholics remind them of such realities.

Sorry.

I cannot worry about it.

If they don’t see the problem, then it can never be repaired…and that is exactly what we find.

The truth is that in discussions with “ex-Catholics” opposing our most holy faith we have proved again and again that they do not and did not know their the faith before they left and IMO have been deceived by people with Bibles, just as I was.

LOL.

Actually, the vast majority of Catholics themselves do not know their faith. This is another problem too many Catholics choose to deny in public.

The odds are that ANY Catholic leaving or staying in the RCC won’t know all the complicated doctrines and dogmas. It is just statistically a fact.

BTW, I am so sorry and saddened that you find the inspired Word of God to be “deceiving.” That is truly unfortunate.

I am also sorry that you felt the need for such hostility when responding to my post. I don’t think that is necessary, but maybe I have inadvertantly hit some deep seated button I was not aware of.

 

[petra]

You just did in your post…So again you claim that all those that have left Catholicism are damned.

Greetings,

If I may interject here…The deposit of faith that Christ left with His Church includes truths about the gravity of some actions. There are actually 3 conditions that must be met for a sin to separate one from Christ:

1. It must be objectively grave.
2. The individual must have sufficiently understood what he/she was doing.
3. The individual must have acted freely and without coercion.

It is an objectively grave matter to leave the fullness and unity of the Church that Christ established. However, many who have left may not have fully understood what they were leaving. Or, there may have been other pressures which mitigated full freedom of choice. In such cases, one can still be saved and grow in Christ.

It is also an objectively grave matter to refuse to enter the Catholic Church. But many, many, many people do not fully understand that which they reject. (The operative word is fully). In such cases, one can still be saved and grow in Christ.

However, if someone sufficiently understands the Catholic faith and freely leaves or refuses to enter, he or she forfeits salvation. (That need not be permanent! Christ always awaits their return and with open arms!) But if someone dies while in a state of separation, that is permanent.

So what is sufficient? It is at this point that Catholics will refuse to judge. We can only convey what constitutes grave matter. We are not God and cannot judge the culpability of another. That is why, in this forum, if someone asks a Catholic, “Am I saved or damned?” Catholics will refuse to say one way or another. We can only comment on that which constitutes grave matter. Only God justly judges whether someone has sufficient understanding to be culpable.

The Catholic Church completely acknowledges that Protestants may be saved and many have a deep, committed relationship with God. I was one of them–an on-fire Evangelical Protestant for 22 years. My relationship with God was authentic. But when confronted with the truth of Catholicism, my conscience obligated me to respond in obedience to God. I’m so blessed.

Praise Him!
petra

 

[mary_bobo]

Greetings,

If I may interject here…The deposit of faith that Christ left with His Church includes truths about the gravity of some actions. There are actually 3 conditions that must be met for a sin to separate one from Christ:

1. It must be objectively grave.
2. The individual must have sufficiently understood what he/she was doing.
3. The individual must have acted freely and without coercion.

It is an objectively grave matter to leave the fullness and unity of the Church that Christ established. However, many who have left may not have fully understood what they were leaving. Or, there may have been other pressures which mitigated full freedom of choice. In such cases, one can still be saved and grow in Christ.

It is also an objectively grave matter to refuse to enter the Catholic Church. But many, many, many people do not fully understand that which they reject. (The operative word is fully). In such cases, one can still be saved and grow in Christ.

However, if someone sufficiently understands the Catholic faith and freely leaves or refuses to enter, he or she forfeits salvation. (That need not be permanent! Christ always awaits their return and with open arms!) But if someone dies while in a state of separation, that is permanent.

So what is sufficient? It is at this point that Catholics will refuse to judge. We can only convey what constitutes grave matter. We are not God and cannot judge the culpability of another. That is why, in this forum, if someone asks a Catholic, “Am I saved or damned?” Catholics will refuse to say one way or another. We can only comment on that which constitutes grave matter. Only God justly judges whether someone has sufficient understanding to be culpable.

The Catholic Church completely acknowledges that Protestants may be saved and many have a deep, committed relationship with God. I was one of them–an on-fire Evangelical Protestant for 22 years. My relationship with God was authentic. But when confronted with the truth of Catholicism, my conscience obligated me to respond in obedience to God. I’m so blessed.

Praise Him!
petra

Beautifully stated.

 

[dessert]

LOL

Oh! ouch! a shot right between the eyes!

Dessert

 

[dessert]

Well I asked the Orthodox who were there as well and they say it ain’t true.

How is it that half the Catholic Church never got that memo in 2000 years?

So are you an OC too?

 

[dessert]

Really?

Wow.

Did you find this out on your own? Where did you get such a huge revelation from God to know such things?

I am sorry you failed Him so and had no faith to speak of. And a life of sin too?

Maybe that is why you believed you would go to Hell.

I would not juxtapose your personal failures in faith onto others though. That is not very wise, IMV.

My repentance started when I went back to the CC on the first Sunday. I suppose you were always a “good” son ? Dessert

 

[Church_Militant]

I have not met any of those Catholics yet.

Yes you have…me.

I understand that many Catholics have their head in the sand over this. They especially don’t like it when non-Catholics remind them of such realities.

Sorry.

I cannot worry about it.

If they don’t see the problem, then it can never be repaired…and that is exactly what we find

… Yeah right…I wish I had a picture of the Cathedral here when they do that service. Incontrovertible evidence that the place is jam packed with people coming into the Catholic Church. My own parish is growing. The only thing that is “declining” (Praise Be To God) is the number of Catholics that are willing to let guys like you get away with misinformation and allegations without substance.

“We find”? We who? Got any valid proof other than your wishful thinking? I doubt it…

Actually, the vast majority of Catholics

themselves do not know their faith. This is another problem too many Catholics choose to deny in public.

The odds are that ANY Catholic leaving or staying in the RCC won’t know all the complicated doctrines and dogmas. **It is just statistically a fact.**Having been a Sunday School teacher and a deacon as well as one who has always shared his faith with others I would point out that the problem is no worse than it is among all the n-Cs that I met and worked with. Very very few of you know more than the average Catholic. Just because you can pop off chapter & verse doesn’t mean that you know what you are talking about, just like your posts here. I don’t deny truth. I deny the propaganda that faithful Catholics don’t know the Bible as well as the faithful whatever else comes along, because that is a fact. In the course of teaching in n-C churches, I found that most of them don’t really know why they believe what they believe and when asked why they responded, “because preacher said so…” so don’t try to tell me that Catholics have some inherently worse problem.

The fact is that most Catholics in general know the Bible at least as well and most times better than comparable n-Cs, they just don’t know they do because we don’t play the chapter & verse game like you guys do. However…a faithful practicing Catholic, given a good concordance will be able to hold his own in any discussion of the Word of God, the same way that n-Cs do by and large.

BTW, I am so sorry and saddened that you find the inspired Word of God to be “deceiving.” That is truly unfortunate.

Don’t try to twist what I said, that is uncharitable and dishonest of you and a terrible witness for your faith.

I never said that I found the Word of God (all 73 books of it!) deceiving. I said that I was deceived by people with Bibles who taught error as truth and led me to share in their errors for over 34 years.

I have no problem at all with the Word of God and am well versed in what it says. Like this, “For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37) So as far as what you have said to me, it will be obvious to all that are reading this thread the kind of “witness” that you are.

I am also sorry that you felt the need for such hostility when responding to my post. I don’t think that is necessary, but maybe I have inadvertantly hit some deep seated button I was not aware of.

I’m not hostile any more than you are. I simply respond with facts. I don’t have any “buttons”. What I have is a “deep seated” faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ and the church that He founded and because of past experiences I can bring my factual insights into this discussion to keep the truth up front where it belongs and keep guys like you from deceiving my Catholic brothers and sisters.

The fact is that the Catholic Church is the one church that Our Lord Jesus Christ founded and its doctrines have not changed in 2,000 years, (and don’t try to play off the Orthodox on us…to them you are more wrong than you’ll ever want to admit.)

I and my Catholic brothers and sisters here are saying the very same thing that the Catholic Church teaches, that those who come to know the Catholic faith and (profess to) understand it and then reject it put their souls in jeopardy.

We also state, the same way that the Church does, that we do not profess to know anyone’s final destiny since we will not presume to dictate how God will deal with any other human being. If you are one who has rejected the Catholic faith & profess to understand it properly, then you will account to God for that. The final result of that I do not and cannot know, and I trust in the mercy of God, but I personally will never again put my soul in that kind of danger.

God has called us all to the fullness of truth in Jesus Christ
(John 14:6).