SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

[n2thelight]

Jesus is Enough and His one-time sacrifice alone saves us to an eternity with God. Jesus nailed our sins to the cross. He took care of business and left none of it undone. …the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. -1 John 1:7

[Jesus] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. -Colossians 2:14

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. - Hebrews 10:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. - Colossians 1:14

Jesus said that His crucifixion completes the payment for sin. He hung suspended between the earth and heaven for six hours taking the brutal payment for your wickedness and mine. After He had taken on the sins of this whole wicked world, He said these words just before He died,

“It is finished.” - John 19:30

Everytime a person says, “I gotta go to purgatory to pay for the rest,” he calls Jesus a liar. Out of a love that cannot be comprehended, Jesus died for every sin, past, present and future. All we have to do is believe on Him. He said, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. -John 6:29

You cannot pay for your crimes (sins) against God for they are eternal in nature. THAT is why Jesus came.The Everlasting God shed His blood which eternally blots out your transgressions if you’ll believe on Jesus Christ. If you think you have anything to offer God outside of believing on Jesus, read on about yourself: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. -
Isaiah 64:6

To say, “We must purify ourselves” negates the work that Jesus did and puts our salvation in your own hands. You’ll NEVER make it in on your own. Turn while there is time. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

daveandangel.com/CRN/Catholic_Catechisms_Purgetory.html

 

[LittleDeb]

I was just lurking for awhile but it is just too tough to contain my giggles any longer. I think we need a spot to file these “green threads.” The recycling of old untruth here is amazing!

Thanks to all of the very knowledgeable Catholics who are willing to go down this path yet again. Defense of the Truth is a beautiful thing.

Must. refrain. from. jumping. on. Baptism. tangent.

 

[paulusta]

    The above states: "The first 'profession of faith' is made during Baptism."  But the Catholic Church Baptizes at infancy, what "profession of faith" can an infant make?

See Hippolytus writings in TobyLue post.

Nowhere in the Bible were infants Baptized.

So if it is not mentioned in the Bible, it means wrong?

IMO,
“lack of evidence” cannot be used as evidence of contradiction.

In fact, cognizant belief was required BEFORE one could be Baptized:

Acts 8:36-37
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (KJV)

using your concept,
if a 2-year-old baby died, where will she go? Heaven or Hell?

That’s a bit much to expect out of the mind of a Toddler! I won’t even get into the fact that the Catholic Church Baptizes by sprinkling with water, when the very word Baptize means to completely submerge.

baptize(d): Greek word #907 baptizo (bap-tid’-zo); from a derivative of NT:911; to immerse, submerge; to make overwhelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N. T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: KJV - Baptist, baptize, wash.

what do you mean by competely submerge?do you mean the whole body is completely submerge?

Mark 7: 34 - KJV with Strong’s number
Click on the word “wash” and see the root of that word, compare that with your definition of “baptizo”.

And when Jesus was Baptized we see that He came up out of (Grk. #1537- ek) the water (i.e., from being down under the water):

Mark 1:9-10
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized [Grk #907 baptizo] of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of [Grk. #1537- ek] the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: (KJV)

If Jesus come in to the river up to his knee and coming back, people still say “he is coming up out of the water”, right?
in other words, “coming up out of the water” does not necessarily mean that the person was fully submerged.

 

[paulusta]

Everytime a person says, “I gotta go to purgatory to pay for the rest,” he calls Jesus a liar. Out of a love that cannot be comprehended, Jesus died for every sin, past, present and future. All we have to do is believe on Him. He said, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. -John 6:29

Are you saying that,
after I get baptized, I can commit sins and still go to heaven ?

 

[n2thelight]

Paulusta
using your concept,
if a 2-year-old baby died, where will she go? Heaven or Hell?

All babies go to Heaven,for they have not reached the age of accountability

Now are you saying that if an infant is not Baptised they go to hell,if so what about aborted babies?

And as a matter of fact being baptised does not save you

Are you saying that,
after I get baptized, I can commit sins and still go to heaven ?

As stated above being baptised does not save you,so the point of your question is irrelevant

paulusta

See Hippolytus writings in TobyLue post.

Hippolytus

Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

In the end when you come before God there will be noone there that can say they spoke for you,we are held accountable for our own actions.

 

[Jestocost]

There is nothing wrong with tradition,but if it goes against the Word of God as many of the Catholic traditions do,then its simply not right.

Lets start with two

Praying to Mary and the Saints and purgatory

Challenge accepted,start with the two above

Ok, you’ve shown (barely) that these practices conflict with your private interpretation (based on traditions not more than 500 years old) of a some Scripture passages, and have been shown counter-examples and alternate interpretations (based on 2000 year old Sacred Tradition). So these examples boil down to a difference of opinion on the meaning of Scripture. Such is the peril or private interpretation. Without a Magesterium, Scripture can be twisted to support or forbid all kinds of strange things.

So do you have any examples of Church traditions that go “against the Word of God” as opposed to your private interpretation of it? If not what kind of test is that? Traditions are ok as long as they don’t conflict with my private interpretation of scripture which is based on traditions?

 

[Gamera]

All babies go to Heaven,for they have not reached the age of accountability

Wait, what? What happened to “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?” (Rom 3:23). Don’t you believe in Original Sin? Doesn’t Original Sin separate every human being from God? Don’t we all need to be born again in order to remove Original Sin and be saved? Aren’t we all damned unless and until we are personally saved by Jesus’ shed blood?

And where do you get this “age of accountability?” What age is that? Chapter and verse, please.

And as a matter of fact being baptised does not save you

“…baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you …” 1 Pet 3:21

In the end when you come before God there will be noone there that can say they spoke for you,we are held accountable for our own actions.

Huh? You just said babies don’t go to hell because they haven’t reached some non-Biblical “age of accountability.” You’re saying they speak for themselves, that nobody can spek for them in baptism? How can babies speak for themselves?

 

[TheGreenO]

n2thelight what do you do with this?

Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” -Matt 19:13-14

We all know that the mark of the covenant in the old testament is circumcision. Why would the mark of new covenant, baptism, be exclusionary for children of any age? The parents consecrated them to the covenant, and news flash, the Jews at this time all know about circumcision as well as the Gentiles. Why after centuries of consecration of children into the covenant would Jesus change that? He has come to "fulfill the Law"

Also we know that no one can go to heaven without being baptized. Jesus’s own words…

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. John 3:5

And this doesn’t mean we think that go to hell, the Church doesn’t know what happens, and it has stated so, for it was not revealed. We trust in God’s mercy in this case.

 

[Church_Militant]

CC (Catechism) #189. “The first ‘profession of faith’ is made during Baptism. The symbol of faith is first and foremost the baptismal creed. Since Baptism is given ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’,[Mt 28:19 .] the truths of faith professed during Baptism are articulated in terms of their reference to the three persons of the Holy Trinity.”

    The above states: "The first 'profession of faith' is made during Baptism."  But the Catholic Church Baptizes at infancy, what "profession of faith" can an infant make?  Nowhere in the Bible were infants Baptized.  In fact, cognizant belief was required BEFORE one could be Baptized:

Obviously you don’t bother to read the links given to you. I suggest that you start. The Case For Infant Baptism

     That's a bit much to expect out of the mind of a Toddler!  I won't even get into the fact that the Catholic Church Baptizes by sprinkling with water, when the very word Baptize means to completely submerge.

baptize(d): Greek word #907 baptizo (bap-tid’-zo); from a derivative of NT:911; to immerse, submerge; to make overwhelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N. T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: KJV - Baptist, baptize, wash.

   And when Jesus was Baptized we see that He came up out of (Grk. #1537-  ek) the water (i.e., from being down under the water):

You already admit that baptism in Greek means to wash…and Acts 2:38 and 22:16 show further that that is what the apostles preached it does. The New Testament confirms this. Yet you will deny this?

     But worse than that, the Catholic Church, by Baptizing her adherents as infants, causes them not to get Baptized while making a cognizant 'profession of faith' as adults!  The people figure that they were already Baptized and why redo it.  They don't understand because the Catholic Church (as well as other denominations who Baptize this way) doesn't tell them.

    Therefore, the Catholic Church basically is full of people who have not received Baptism willingly and coherently.  This is concerning!  Has not the Catholic Church read the Scriptures, or do they do this knowingly?  How could they honestly error on this one?!?  This is a cause for immediate concern.

Read the article, it addresses all that.

Oh, and BTW, mighty odd that the Philippian jailer was baptized at night after washing the wounds of the apostles. they didn’t “go down to the river” in the middle of the night for that, and they sure as vitam aeternam didn’t get dunked. They poured that what over them right there in the jail.

http://www.biblestudysite.com/baptism.htm

 

[cfrancis]

Jesus is Enough and His one-time sacrifice alone saves us to an eternity with God. Jesus nailed our sins to the cross. He took care of business and left none of it undone. …the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. -1 John 1:7

[Jesus] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. -Colossians 2:14

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. - Hebrews 10:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. - Colossians 1:14

Jesus said that His crucifixion completes the payment for sin. He hung suspended between the earth and heaven for six hours taking the brutal payment for your wickedness and mine. After He had taken on the sins of this whole wicked world, He said these words just before He died,

“It is finished.” - John 19:30

Everytime a person says, “I gotta go to purgatory to pay for the rest,” he calls Jesus a liar. Out of a love that cannot be comprehended, Jesus died for every sin, past, present and future. All we have to do is believe on Him. He said, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. -John 6:29

You cannot pay for your crimes (sins) against God for they are eternal in nature. THAT is why Jesus came.The Everlasting God shed His blood which eternally blots out your transgressions if you’ll believe on Jesus Christ. If you think you have anything to offer God outside of believing on Jesus, read on about yourself: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. -
Isaiah 64:6

To say, “We must purify ourselves” negates the work that Jesus did and puts our salvation in your own hands. You’ll NEVER make it in on your own. Turn while there is time. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

daveandangel.com/CRN/Catholic_Catechisms_Purgetory.html

It’s quite nostalgic to go over the tried and “true” anti-Catholic drivel, yet you appear to be carrying on a one-way “discussion.”

How about you actually carry on a dialogue here?

Your belief is, if it’s not in Scripture, it’s a false belief/doctrine, a tradition.

OK, you believe the gospel of Matthew is:

1. inspired by God
2. written by Matthew
3. belongs in the Bible.

Please, using just Scripture, defend your belief.

 

[mlchance]

Ecclesiastes 12:6 “Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.”

Ecclesiastes 12:7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.”

There’s nothing in either of those verses that says one instantly goes to God when one dies. There’s nothing in either verse that addresses the time frame at all.

And my apolgise for not listing my sources in earlier post

You still haven’t.

I won’t even get into the fact that the Catholic Church Baptizes by sprinkling with water, when the very word Baptize means to completely submerge.

Once again, you’re refuted:

catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp
catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp
catholic.com/library/Baptism_Immersion_Only.asp

And as a matter of fact being baptised does not save you

Rom. 6:3-4: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Titus 3:5: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost…”

1 Peter 3:21: “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…”

Acts 2:38: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Et cetera. Scripture is clear that baptism forgives sins and is necessary for salvation. Jesus Christ himself said so.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Jesus said that His crucifixion completes the payment for sin. He hung suspended between the earth and heaven for six hours taking the brutal payment for your wickedness and mine. After He had taken on the sins of this whole wicked world, He said these words just before He died,

“It is finished.” - John 19:30

Everytime a person says, “I gotta go to purgatory to pay for the rest,” he calls Jesus a liar. Out of a love that cannot be comprehended, Jesus died for every sin, past, present and future. All we have to do is believe on Him. He said, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. -John 6:29

You cannot pay for your crimes (sins) against God for they are eternal in nature. THAT is why Jesus came.The Everlasting God shed His blood which eternally blots out your transgressions if you’ll believe on Jesus Christ. If you think you have anything to offer God outside of believing on Jesus, read on about yourself: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. -
Isaiah 64:6

To say, “We must purify ourselves” negates the work that Jesus did and puts our salvation in your own hands. You’ll NEVER make it in on your own. Turn while there is time. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

daveandangel.com/CRN/Catholic_Catechisms_Purgetory.html

Care to explain your comments in light of Hebrews 10:26-27 …

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

 

[TobyLue]

The above states: “The first ‘profession of faith’ is made during Baptism.” But the Catholic Church Baptizes at infancy, what “profession of faith” can an infant make? Nowhere in the Bible were infants Baptized. In fact, cognizant belief was required BEFORE one could be Baptized:

Wait, wait, wait N2. Look at your OP…… You are asking for things taught by Jesus that were **NOT **written, and question how we know. Examples have been given to you that **Infant Baptism was taught by the Early Church **Fathers, who got their teachings from the Apostles and the Apostles got them from Jesus. Now you say NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE WERE INFANTS BAPTIZED. So what it is N2? Stick to your OP and don’t try to weasel out…

Are you FOR CERTAIN that where it says in the Bible “the whole household was baptized” there WITHOUT A DOUBT WERE NO INFANTS. Please prove to us from the Bible or from early church teachings.that there is NO DOUBT AT ALL that there were NO INFANTS in those households. If God commanded for babies to be circumcised and now baptism replaces circumcision, why did God change His mind regarding infants?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Good point. Let’s remember that the new covenant was meant to be more inclusive by including the gentiles. It wouldn’t exclude infants who WERE included under the old covenant.

 

[n2thelight]

Sir Knight

Care to explain your comments in light of Hebrews 10:26-27 …

These verses have nothing to do with this subject

TobyLue

Wait, wait, wait N2. Look at your OP…… You are asking for things taught by Jesus that were NOT written, and question how we know. Examples have been given to you that Infant Baptism was taught by the Early Church Fathers, who got their teachings from the Apostles and the Apostles got them from Jesus. Now you say NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE WERE INFANTS BAPTIZED. So what it is N2? Stick to your OP and don’t try to weasel out…

Are you FOR CERTAIN that where it says in the Bible “the whole household was baptized” there WITHOUT A DOUBT WERE NO INFANTS. Please prove to us from the Bible or from early church teachings.that there is NO DOUBT AT ALL that there were NO INFANTS in those households. If God commanded for babies to be circumcised and now baptism replaces circumcision, why did God change His mind regarding infants?

I have yet to see an example of anything yet I give you verses that if looked at with common sense should leave no doubt

Acts 8:36-37
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (KJV)

So my question again,in light of this verse,how can an infant believe in anything

Will the infant thats baptised be required to do so again when older?

 

[n2thelight]

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
And as a matter of fact being baptised does not save you

Rom. 6:3-4: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Titus 3:5: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost…”

1 Peter 3:21: “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…”

Acts 2:38: “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Et cetera. Scripture is clear that baptism forgives sins and is necessary for salvation. Jesus Christ himself said so.

– Mark L. Chance.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

 

[guanophore]

And do tell why not

Or are you saying that the Catholic Church decides whats scripture and what is not,and that it can be and not be at the same time?

The Catholic Church decided what comprised the New Testament, yes. Because the Catholic Church produced the canon out of Sacred Tradition, the Church is not limited to the written portion of God’s revelation.

Altar calls are not in scripture.
Observance of the Sabbath on Sunday is not in scripture.
The word “Trinity” is not found in scripture.

None of these things are “unscriptural”.

Scripture is not the Sole rule of authority in faith and morals.

 

[guanophore]

[Jesus] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. -Colossians 2:14

This is a reference to Levitical law

Everytime a person says, “I gotta go to purgatory to pay for the rest,” he calls Jesus a liar… You cannot pay for your crimes (sins) against God for they are eternal in nature. THAT is why Jesus came.The Everlasting God shed His blood which eternally blots out your transgressions if you’ll believe on Jesus Christ.

Clearly you misunderstand purgatory. The purification is for those who have already been saved by the blood of Jesus. It is necessary because nothing unclean can enter heaven. Furthermore, it is not about eternity, since Jesus has already paid our eternal price. It is for the temporal consequences for sin.

If you think you have anything to offer God outside of believing on Jesus, read on about yourself: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. -
Isaiah 64:6

This is a misunderstanding that derives from heresy during the Reformation. Humans are made in the image and likeness of God. He created us to have fellowship with himself, and has made our good works eternal treasures.

To say, “We must purify ourselves” negates the work that Jesus did and puts our salvation in your own hands. You’ll NEVER make it in on your own. Turn while there is time. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

daveandangel.com/CRN/Catholic_Catechisms_Purgetory.html

1 Tim 5:22
“…do not participate in the sins of others; keep yourself pure.”

If we have no responsibility for purity, why does the Apostle made a directive to Timothy he keep himself pure from sins?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Care to explain your comments in light of Hebrews 10:26-27 …

They have EVERYTHING to do with the subject. They DISPROVE your assertion that we do not have to pay any debt for our sins in purgatory because Christ paid all of our debt. The passage couldn’t be any clearer …

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

… If you disagree, then please explain what Hebrews 10:26-27 is saying and I’ll stand corrected.

 

[guanophore]

When we die in Christ we are cleansed, at the instant of death,we don’t have to go off somewhere to be cleansed.

This is consistent with Apostolic Teaching. In baptism, we are united to Christ in a death like his. We are pure. However, most people do not die immediately after their baptism, and become soiled again by sin.

To imply that we are punished for sins already forgiven is to call Christ a lair when I repent my sin are not even remembered by God,so how and why do I need to be cleansed of them?

I think you are confusing sin with it’s consequences. Look at the thief on the cross, for example. He made a profession of faith, and Jesus promised him paradise. But you notice Jesus did not take him when Jesus breathed HIs last. He left him there to suffer the consequences of his sins (which were forgiven). The thief hung there for many hours, suffering, and eventually had his legs broken. All this happened after he was ‘saved’. This is an example of what we call the temporal consequences of sin.

When you repent for your sins, then all those sins are washed away and will never more be remembered by God. They are blotted out and all that remains is your name in the Lamb's book of Life. Friend, the Lamb is Christ was sacrificed for any sin that you have repented of, so get of the guilt trip once you have repented. When you are saved you still are in this flesh body and will fall short and then you don't need to be saved all over again, but you need to repent of that sin, and get on with your life. It is a kin to blasphemy when you keep hanging on to old sin's guilt, once you have repented of them. It is saying that Christ's blood was not enough to pay the price.

Guilt is not the same as consequences. I will offer another example. Supposing I am irresponsible with my finances, and don’t pay my taxes. Eventually, the IRS catches up to me, and demands what I owe. I recognize that I have fallen short of God’s command to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s, and I repent and ask forgiveness. God forgives me, and I start fresh. However, I still have the temporal consequences to pay. The IRS will get their pound of flesh from me,and God will not necessarily prevent that from happening, just like He did not prevent the good thief from suffering on the cross. As the thief noted "…we indeed have been condemned justly, for we are getting what we deserve for our deeds…"Luke 23:41