SSPX and women in positions of authority

[childofmary1143]

Take away the fact that a referee was involved. Please respond to the quote below and my original question.

This isn’t about referees. My question was a very general question.

Yes thank you for bringing this story back to the key issue at hand: The reason given, according to the referees: Campbell, as a woman, could not be put in a position of authority over boys because of the academy’s beliefs.

Boy I sure would like to see how a Catholic can defend that? Our Lady is Queen of Heaven and Earth and that would certainly place her in a position of authority over all boys. However lets bring this down to earth a little. Does the SSPX feel that Mothers have NO authority over their children and specifically boys? Does the SSPX not know the 4th Commandment called Honor thy Father and Mother?

This incident has nothing to do with immodest clothing because if the referee was wearing inappropriate clothing then the boys would be too and the boys are not exempt from the consequences of immodest attire.

Karl Keating has very wisely said that Schism leads to heresy and we can see that here.

 

[GerardP]

When did nuns stop breaking up fights in high school? When the priests and other male religious stop acting like women. Your question does nothing to show there should be no women referees.

Then you are changing your mind and you do think that boys should be allowed to tackle the hell out of a girl on the football field right?

First you argue that refereeing is different because it’s not so violent. Now, you are arguing that women should be in the thick of violent fights.

Get back to me when you decide to be consistent in your thinking.

I went to a boy’s high school, and it was the nuns who constantly patrolled the halls; and they were the ones who broke up the fights. Your point shows nothing.

And your anecdote proves the point. Nuns should not be patrolling the halls and breaking up fights. They only became battle axes when the sissies were let into the seminaries and the “butch” were let into the convents.

 

[otjm]

Then you are changing your mind and you do think that boys should be allowed to tackle the hell out of a girl on the football field right?

The logic in your leap from a nun stopping a fight (not quite the same as fighting, but you seem to overlook that minor point) to someone tackling a girl escapes me. The nuns didn’t fight; they stopped the fight; and you are the one who seems to abhor the idea that there might be an altercation on the basketball court and heavens forbid, there would be a woman referee. My point, which seems too subtle for you to catch, is that nuns were stopping fights among boys in high school which were just as quick to start up, and just about as vicious as anything between a couple of guys on a basketball court. No one had a problem pre Vatican 2 with nuns doing that but you are promoting some idea that it is verbooten now.

First you argue that refereeing is different because it’s not so violent. Now, you are arguing that women should be in the thick of violent fights.

No, Ididn’t. I never said anything about womens hould be in the thick of fights. You were the one who was afraid of awoman on the basketball court; I simply pointed out it was nothing new, as women have been breaking up fights for long before Vatican 2; no one got upset then; so why are you upset now?

Get back to me when you decide to be consistent in your thinking.

My thinking is not inconsistent. Your logic is lacking. I somehow have seemed to get your dander up, as you seem to be giving responses that are not part of a logical calm discussion, but rapidfire kneejerk style. You are throwing a lot of red herrings into the discussion, and from your responses are obviously not really reading what I say, but simply reacting. in short, your fingers are in motion before the synapses.

And your anecdote proves the point. Nuns should not be patrolling the halls and breaking up fights. They only became battle axes when the sissies were let into the seminaries and the “butch” were let into the convents.

So you are saying that the convents were full of homosexual women before Vatican 2? Interesting.

My discussion with you is close to an end, as you are no longer discussing the issue, but slinging mud.

 

[GerardP]

 *The reason given, according to the referees: Campbell, as a woman, could not be put in a position of authority over boys because of the academy's beliefs.*

Boy I sure would like to see how a Catholic can defend that?

How about St. Paul and St. Thomas Aquinas?
Do you honestly think the SSPX don’t base all of their teachings on the Catholic Church’s teachings? They don’t ignore the unpopular positions.

Our Lady is Queen of Heaven and Earth and that would certainly place her in a position of authority over all boys.

As a Mother she has her authority.

However lets bring this down to earth a little. Does the SSPX feel that Mothers have NO authority over their children and specifically boys?

No. Just as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches…“The recipients of a divinely conferred grace administer it in different ways according to their various conditions. Hence women, if they have the grace of wisdom or of knowledge, can administer it by teaching privately but not publicly.”

Does the SSPX not know the 4th Commandment called Honor thy Father and Mother?

Did Thomas Aquinas? Did St. Paul?

This incident has nothing to do with immodest clothing because if the referee was wearing inappropriate clothing then the boys would be too and the boys are not exempt from the consequences of immodest attire.

They are less susceptible to rousing lust as St. Thomas also teaches.

Karl Keating has very wisely said that Schism leads to heresy and we can see that here.

??? Was St. Thomas in schism?

Listen to this interview and avoid the knee jerk reactions and the hysteria that so many on these boards react with when someone disagrees with what TV has told them is proper.

heartlandcatholic.org/podcast.aspx

 

[Leeta]

A nun in full habit would be no problem refereeing a game!
But I would have a problem with a lay woman refereeing boys’ competetive games. It is hard to explain. Recently a woman coach was trying to get a boys soccer team together and I did not allow my sons to play. I don’t think she could really get them to perform as well.

My sons do not like to play soccer with girls because they do not feel free to go all out and be agressive. The girls are generally pretty pitiful players. Soccer is a man’ s game in the rest of the world.

 

[GerardP]

The logic in your leap from a nun stopping a fight (not quite the same as fighting, but you seem to overlook that minor point) to someone tackling a girl escapes me.

Logic just plain escapes you since you can’t avoid the smarmy unenlightened answers. “Stopping a fight” usually involves entering the fight and winning it.

My point that you don’t want to get because you are more interested in jousting than thinking is that there are functions that are naturally suited to men and other’s to women because there is a thing called masculinity and femininity.

 

[GerardP]

My point, which seems too subtle for you to catch, is that nuns were stopping fights among boys in high school which were just as quick to start up, and just about as vicious as anything between a couple of guys on a basketball court. No one had a problem pre Vatican 2 with nuns doing that but you are promoting some idea that it is verbooten now.

What does Vatican II have to do with anything about this?

What gives you the foggiest notion that I would approve of nuns getting into the thick of fights prior to the Council?

DAZZLE ME WITH YOUR LOGIC ON THAT ONE!

 

[GerardP]

No, Ididn’t. I never said anything about womens hould be in the thick of fights.

But it is in the nature of the function of the referee to break up the fights if they should occur.

You are inconsistent.

You were the one who was afraid of awoman on the basketball court;

That’s not quite accurate. It’s simply not appropriate. I’m afraid of toddlers behind the steering wheel. I’m dismayed by women having their femininity stolen from them.

I simply pointed out it was nothing new, as women have been breaking up fights for long before Vatican 2; no one got upset then; so why are you upset now?

No one of any significance was upset when girls started playing football with boys. But they do get upset when St. Mary’s refuses to bat a girl around on the field.

People get upset when other people stand on the conviction that gender means something in God’s plan and he has ordered things according to nature.

My thinking is not inconsistent. Your logic is lacking.

Nah. I’ve got the better of you on this one.

I somehow have seemed to get your dander up, as you seem to be giving responses that are not part of a logical calm discussion, but rapidfire kneejerk style.

Compartmentalized answers are to the point. It takes time to scroll back up to the original point in order to point out where you’ve gone off the rails.

You are throwing a lot of red herrings into the discussion, and from your responses are obviously not really reading what I say, but simply reacting. in short, your fingers are in motion before the synapses.

I don’t think so. My principals are rooted in the teaching of the Church. St. Paul and St. Thomas Aquinas just as the SSPX’s are.

So you are saying that the convents were full of homosexual women before Vatican 2? Interesting.

I can’t speak to those details but I can say that there was a growing loss of femininity in the convents and masculinity in the seminaries prior to, during and after the Council.

My discussion with you is close to an end, as you are no longer discussing the issue, but slinging mud.

I sling mud. I get it. You accuse me of hitting on nuns as a kid and I’m the one slinging mud.

You’re a class act.

 

[lak611]

Logic just plain escapes you since you can’t avoid the smarmy unenlightened answers. “Stopping a fight” usually involves entering the fight and winning it.

My point that you don’t want to get because you are more interested in jousting than thinking is that there are functions that are naturally suited to men and other’s to women because there is a thing called masculinity and femininity.

Do you think it is wrong for girls’ sports to have male referees? Should all referees in girls’ sports be female?

 

[GerardP]

If you want to hit on nuns, that is a different issue.

I’m shocked that you would be such a lowlife to take such a perverse and cheap shot.

What a good Catholic.

Your point is irrelevant as to whether or not it is appropriate for a woman to referee.

No. It’s quite relevant. Refereeing is a man’s function.

A young teenage boy who may be having problems with sexual identity might be attracted to a male referee; that is the boy’s problem and not an indicator that a male should not referee.

That’s because homosexuality is not natural either. Men being attracted to feminine beauty is natural.

Or do you disagree with this?

And if a boy is having problems with a female referee, he has no business butting heads with her or bumping bodies with her; for that matter, they have no business doing that with a male referee.

The odds are better that he won’t with a male.

The problem gets solved quickly, as the boy who does that won’t be playing for long. It is called a technical.

What about the stitches or surgery that the female may need? How’s her husband going to take it? Is he going to take an eye for an eye?

It is your problem as you are the one who identifies refereeing as a male only job.

It’s your problem that you don’t see it.

Do you identify typing up a paper fon a copmputer as a female job - as in secretary work?

There is no surrender of masculinity or femininity in typing.

Given that I have yet to see any referee - male or female - in short shorts and tight shirts, your point is not conducive to the conversation, nor is it indicative that a woman should not referee.

You will when some slick marketer decides he needs it to add to attendence. Then it’s only a matter of time before it’s at the High Schools and Middle Schools.

There are some people who cimply cannot be around women without having lustful thoughts, whether they are in the stands watching the game or in the floor refereeing it.

Well, since they shouldn’t be refereeing, that will solve half the problem.

That, however, is a problem of the individual and is not indicative of any intrinsic issues as to the rightness or wrongness of a woman refereeing a boys basketball game.

You have yet to provide any evidence that refereeing is gender neutral or conducive to femininity in any way.

It’s self evident that it’s a masculine pastime and women shouldn’t be doing it.

I don’t live in a gender free world. I just learned long ago that gender is not an issue in many jobs.

That’s because the devil wants the society to blurr the genders.

You are the one who wants to make it an issue, and all we have is your opinions with nothing backing them that your “it is because I said so” approach.

Then you haven’t been reading my posts.

one of the most dignified women I have known was an older, very short nun who had artheritic knees. … I remember many a time seeing her wade into a group of juniors and seniors who were in a scuffle, and reach up to grab the two combatants by the collar and haul them up short.

Here’s your example of a nun inappropriately getting into a fight.

I am not convinced that you respect women;

I don’t need to convince you of anything. The women in my life know I respect women.

it appears more that you respect an image of what you think women should be.

Yes. I respect the ideal of what both men and women should be.
JPII taught some of this in “Theology of the Body.” Bishop Sheen also taught along the same lines very well.

And the question is, if a woman doesn’t meet your image, do you still respect her?

No one meets the ideal of Our Lady or Our Lord. It’s incumbent on me to see an image however imperfect of Our Lady. Just as each man is made to imitate Christ.

The problem is when the women more easily look like John the Baptist and the men Mary Magdalen.

 

[GerardP]

Do you think it is wrong for girls’ sports to have male referees? Should all referees in girls’ sports be female?

Generally, yes. What do you mean by girls’ sports? Are we talking sports that are conducive to girls or girls imitating boys by having their own football, baseball, etc?

What is the point of girls’ sports anyway? There is a very limited function for sports for boys in the grand scheme but I see very little need for girls’ sports.

 

[dixieagle]

A nun in full habit would be no problem refereeing a game!
But I would have a problem with a lay woman refereeing boys’ competetive games. It is hard to explain. Recently a woman coach was trying to get a boys soccer team together and I did not allow my sons to play. I don’t think she could really get them to perform as well.

My sons do not like to play soccer with girls because they do not feel free to go all out and be agressive. The girls are generally pretty pitiful players. Soccer is a man’ s game in the rest of the world.

Uh…tell that to Mia Hamm and the rest of the Olympians, past and present.

 

[dixieagle]

Generally, yes. What do you mean by girls’ sports? Are we talking sports that are conducive to girls or girls imitating boys by having their own football, baseball, etc?

What is the point of girls’ sports anyway? There is a very limited function for sports for boys in the grand scheme but I see very little need for girls’ sports.

The “point” of girls’ sports is fostering a healthy, physically active lifestyle and encouraging teamwork, fun and sportsmanship.

I think you just like to be argumentative; it’s hard to imagine anyone could actually subscribe to such Victorian notions these days.

I’ll have to show your posts to my very feminine, Catholic daughters (former ballerinas who run marathons and play soccer and handball.) They love a good chuckle!

 

[KathleenElsie]

IMHO when the game is just for fun and boys and girls are playing together anyone can referee.

When the time comes for the boys to become men then the situation changes. If only for everyones modesty and safety the referee should be of the same sex as the players. And IMHO bigger then most of the players .

As for a womans authority over men and the role of women that in the past was just accepted as being wrong in most cases. Nuns were the exception to the rule and even they were and are limited in this capacity.

The traditional Catholic higher education system was divided by gender and only recently gone to co-ed in many cases. Many of the schools were run by Nuns or Brothers depending on the fact of it being a boys school or girls school. IMHO this was the better way to educate our children. But this would be another thread.

 

[childofmary1143]

Generally, yes. What do you mean by girls’ sports? Are we talking sports that are conducive to girls or girls imitating boys by having their own football, baseball, etc?

What is the point of girls’ sports anyway? There is a very limited function for sports for boys in the grand scheme but I see very little need for girls’ sports.

So girls can’t play baseball eh? I would ask for an explanation but I would be afraid that you might give one.

Previously you agreed that women should have some authority over boys and I posed those questions as it seems that this school’s position on not having women in authority positions is not theologically correct.

While I don’t like the idea of mixed sports at the high school level or even at the primary school level I don’t think we as men should make ridiculous opinions about what sports women/girls should play or not.

I think also a distinction, a very important one, should be made that it is entirely different having a woman coach for a boys team than a woman referee for boys games.

 

[lucybeebee]

Actually the concept of girls sports arose in all-girls schools during the Victorian era…

 

[GerardP]

The “point” of girls’ sports is fostering a healthy, physically active lifestyle and encouraging teamwork, fun and sportsmanship.

Girls can foster each of those characteristics without having to abandon femininity by imitating men.

I think you just like to be argumentative;

No. It’s just funny how hysterical people become when someone
criticizes the modern brainwashed perspective on gender nullification.

it’s hard to imagine anyone could actually subscribe to such Victorian notions these days.

That statement just shows how liberal you are. Past = Bad and stupid. Modern= wonderful and enlightened.

I’ll have to show your posts to my very feminine, Catholic daughters (former ballerinas who run marathons and play soccer and handball.)

Years ago I used to date a ballerina who worked with a major metropolitan company. So, I know about how many of the dancers would curse up a storm behind the curtain, dropping the “F” bomb like there was nothing to it. And the scandal that they demonstrate in front of little girls who are also dancing is appalling.

Add to that the physical demands that destroy a woman’s metabolism and throw off her menstrual cycle. Once Dame Margot Fontaine raised the athletic standards for women to heights that only she could acheive, she created a tidal wave of injuries both internal and external. Exceptions prove the rule after all.

The girls are trying to keep their weight low enough to handle the Ballanchine choreography and live up to his unhealthy ideals of how a woman should look and you have a major problem.

Add to that, the perverse modern choreography and you have scandal added to the mix.

And finally, the artistic bankruptcy of ballet and we’re not left with much.

They love a good chuckle!

It might be that they just need oxygen.

 

[GerardP]

So girls can’t play baseball eh? I would ask for an explanation but I would be afraid that you might give one.

I will if you like.

Previously you agreed that women should have some authority over boys and I posed those questions as it seems that this school’s position on not having women in authority positions is not theologically correct.

I hope you’ve seen that the position of St. Mary’s is correct theologically, philosophically and sociologically.

While I don’t like the idea of mixed sports at the high school level or even at the primary school level I don’t think we as men should make ridiculous opinions about what sports women/girls should play or not.

Why not? If you’re wife or daughter suddenly says she wants to be an Ultimate Fighter, don’t you think that you should step in and show some leadership?

I think also a distinction, a very important one, should be made that it is entirely different having a woman coach for a boys team than a woman referee for boys games.

I fail to see a distinction. This is a broader issue about the nature of man and woman and the alignment of that nature to certain roles.

 

[seekerz]

Hi GerardP, I’m a woman who would like your opinion on whether typing on a Catholic board such as this properly belongs to the male or female gender.

Somewhat off-topic, I know, but if you consider that some seek this board as a kind of “authority” on Church teachings, it seems to me like you might have an opinion.

Should those who hold your kind of ‘traditional’ views only seek boards that cater to their own sex? Personally, it’s an idea that becomes more and more attractive as I read some of these posts…

 

[GerardP]

Hi GerardP, I’m a woman who would like your opinion on whether typing on a Catholic board such as this properly belongs to the male or female gender.

It would depend on what is being typed. No one should be claiming an authority that is not their’s.

I don’t claim the authority of a priest and in “normal” circumstances, no Catholic should profess to teach anything about the faith unless deputed to do so by a competent Church authority.

Unfortunately, we are in a desperate time in the history of the Church and until things get better unusual people are going to be called to service.

Somewhat off-topic, I know, but if you consider that some seek this board as a kind of “authority” on Church teachings, it seems to me like you might have an opinion. Should those who hold your kind of ‘traditional’ views only seek boards that cater to their own sex? Personally, it’s an idea that becomes more and more attractive as I read some of these posts…

You mean make little clubs that are exclusive to each gender?

Well, if you can have women’s-only gyms like “Curves” and

women’s book clubs. Why shouldn’t you have women’s only forums?

Of course, maybe if you all agree on it, you could even form a basketball team.

The question would be whether or not to let men join I suppose.