SSPX Teaching Video

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Actually I was not jesting.
You support conspiracy theory.
Interesting.

Please spare everyone your useless wiki links -
and the raft of pro-sspx links too. (That would be nice.)
I supply a link that has an essay written by Hillaire Belloc, and now you accuse me of conspiracy theory? Please do me the favor of explaining whatever it is you are talking about. Here is a link on Belloc:
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Hilaire_Belloc
 
I really think you cannot be “faithful” without being obedient.

Obedience to the Pope is TRADITION. Anyone who has separated themselves from the Pope is NOT following Tradition. You cannot say you uphold Tradition while leaving out some of the other parts of Traditions. Which to me, would negate your whole movement.

And, whether you all realize it or not, YOU have separated yourselves from Rome. 🤷
All of us are called to live lives that embrace poverty, chastity and obedience.

M. Lefebvre was NOT the sole exception to that fact.
 
If you would read something OTHER than SSPX propaganda, you would know that also.🙂

You didn’t mention the free masons, why…🤷
I didn’t mention masons because for one thing, I don’t have any interest whatsoever in conspiracy theories. I don’t care if dead popes were masons, or if dead clergy of any position in the Hierarchy were masons. The dead don’t scare me. It is the live ones that can get’cha 🙂 Find one post of mine that I defended or supported the mason argument, and I’ll leave the forum for good.
Same goes for Popes. Show me one post of mine where I spoke badly of any Pope by name.

Anyhow, until you provide a source for your annulment thing, I’ll have to assume there is none.
 
Pope Benedict knows full well that, where Lefebvre and the SSPX is concerned, it is not about the Mass. Where Lefebvre was vindicated by SP is in the admission that the Traditional Mass was never abrogated.
But the fact that the SSPX has not returned to full union with the Hoy See proves Benedict’s point in the Motu Proprio. There are other issues or they have other bones to pick with the Church.

He subtly points the finger at them by saying “look there are others who also loved the old missal and they never broke with the bishops and with the Pope, they held the teachings of Vatican II as authoritative”.

The Motu Proprio was not writen for SSPX. It was written for the Bishops. Pope Benedict reminds the bishops that the unity with the Bishop of Rome cannot be broken over any issue, not even the form of the mass.

He also reminds them of the authoritative nature of Vatican II.

He reminds them that until the roman missal is abrogated, it is still lawful and needs no special indult. This is a point of law that he is bringing up. No one will disagree with that.

The problem that people have with the SSPX is that they have flown the Tridentine Mass as their flag. Now that this has been clarified and rectified, they still are not back.

This is like the wife who leaves her husband because he drinks, but now he’s sober and she still does not come back home. One has to question, what else is the problem?

You said you were leaving becasue he’s a drunk. He’s sober and functional and you’re still away.

This causes confusion for many lay people and for bishops too. People are asking, what’s the problem now?

Suddenly you start getting complaints from the SSPX that they don’t agree with permanent married deacons.

The NO looks like the English Mass.

They don’t agree with the Catholic Church’s Ecumenical activities and procedures.

They don’t want the Of at all.

They acknowledge the Primacy of Peter and the legitimacy of the papal elections since Vatican II, but they feel the moral obligation to disobey Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

If you acknoledge their legitimacy as Vicars of Christ, but you do not feel morally compelled to obey them, who is your temporal leader? This sounds like early Lutheranism. He argued that he was a Catholic trying to save the Church, not against the Church. He too saw conspiracies all over the place. Today there are questons as to Luther’s mental health and at the same time, there is agreement with some of his positions. The SSPX is looking like a repetition of the Lutheran reform.

So we have an OF that looks like the English liturgy. OK, so what? It doesn’t mean that it is. Is it possible that we can learn something from the Anglican Church and preserve our Catholic faith at the same time?

Have we forgotten that we also borrowed much from the Greeks, Romans and Jews?

Have we forgotten that something as simple as a Pope dressed in white was introduced into the Catholic Church by a Dominican Friar who was elected pope, but did not want to leave his order. Therefore, he insisted on wearing his Dominican habit, St. Pius V? He was so holy that his successors started to wear the Dominican habit, hence the white cassock, kipa, and cape tha the Pope wears today.

Have we forgotten that the Byzantines are an integral part of the Catholic Church and that they preserve many ancient customs and disciplines that they inherited from the apostles, such as a married deacon and married priest. If they are integral to the Church, to borrow from them the permanent deaconate is not a deviation in faith, because we are borrwoing from ourselves.

Did we forget that the Bible in the language of the people was a Protestant idea, not a Catholic idea. We followed their lead on this.

Do we remember that we excommunicated many scientists during the Renaissance and now we have one of the largest and finest scientific centers of study in the world located right within the Vatican.

Finally, have we forgotten that Ecumenism is not a dirty word and that it was practiced by the Jesuits, Franciscans, Maryknoll and Missionaries of Charity long before Vatican II. The Vatican made a deal with the Palestinian government, before it was Israel to allow the Franciscans to work together.

Now we have some from SSPX that say that all of this is wrong. On what authority, if they have no central voice of authority and the only authority they recognize is the Pope, but they feel morally obliged to disobey.

This is what radical liberals did too after Vatican II and they claimed it was their conscience they were following. Traditionalists have rejected their claims, as well they should.

Why should I or any other Catholic accept the claims of someone who sounds like Luther? “I’m going to save the Church from herself.”

JR 🙂
 
I see quite a lot of anger coming from you. All caps does tend to transmit that emotion.

The comparison of Lefebvre’s ordination (and consecration as Bishop) by a purported Freemason does not compare to the Freemason Bugnini and his direct involvement in the development of the NOM. Freemasonry isn’t a disease that one catches, and it isn’t passed on through ordination.
The direct involvement…I was under the impression that our Pope had the final say as to what went into effect. It really doesn’t matter who “helped” write it. The Pope made the final decision. (With the aid of the Holy Spirit)

Well, honeypot…I do get pretty angry when My faith and Church is being attacked I figured I would have to defend my faith with the Protestants, but I NEVER thought I would have to do it with other Catholics.

Luther all over again…:rolleyes:

(Incidently, when I do caps, it is to show that I am putting emphasis on that word. I am terribly sorry you didn’t understand)🙂
 
:blessyou:
But the fact that the SSPX has not returned to full union with the Hoy See proves Benedict’s point in the Motu Proprio. There are other issues or they have other bones to pick with the Church.

He subtly points the finger at them by saying “look there are others who also loved the old missal and they never broke with the bishops and with the Pope, they held the teachings of Vatican II as authoritative”.

The Motu Proprio was not writen for SSPX. It was written for the Bishops. Pope Benedict reminds the bishops that the unity with the Bishop of Rome cannot be broken over any issue, not even the form of the mass.

He also reminds them of the authoritative nature of Vatican II.

He reminds them that until the roman missal is abrogated, it is still lawful and needs no special indult. This is a point of law that he is bringing up. No one will disagree with that.

The problem that people have with the SSPX is that they have flown the Tridentine Mass as their flag. Now that this has been clarified and rectified, they still are not back.

This is like the wife who leaves her husband because he drinks, but now he’s sober and she still does not come back home. One has to question, what else is the problem?

You said you were leaving becasue he’s a drunk. He’s sober and functional and you’re still away.

This causes confusion for many lay people and for bishops too. People are asking, what’s the problem now?

Suddenly you start getting complaints from the SSPX that they don’t agree with permanent married deacons.

The NO looks like the English Mass.

They don’t agree with the Catholic Church’s Ecumenical activities and procedures.

They don’t want the Of at all.

They acknowledge the Primacy of Peter and the legitimacy of the papal elections since Vatican II, but they feel the moral obligation to disobey Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

If you acknoledge their legitimacy as Vicars of Christ, but you do not feel morally compelled to obey them, who is your temporal leader? This sounds like early Lutheranism. He argued that he was a Catholic trying to save the Church, not against the Church. He too saw conspiracies all over the place. Today there are questons as to Luther’s mental health and at the same time, there is agreement with some of his positions. The SSPX is looking like a repetition of the Lutheran reform.

So we have an OF that looks like the English liturgy. OK, so what? It doesn’t mean that it is. Is it possible that we can learn something from the Anglican Church and preserve our Catholic faith at the same time?

Have we forgotten that we also borrowed much from the Greeks, Romans and Jews?

Have we forgotten that something as simple as a Pope dressed in white was introduced into the Catholic Church by a Dominican Friar who was elected pope, but did not want to leave his order. Therefore, he insisted on wearing his Dominican habit, St. Pius V? He was so holy that his successors started to wear the Dominican habit, hence the white cassock, kipa, and cape tha the Pope wears today.

Have we forgotten that the Byzantines are an integral part of the Catholic Church and that they preserve many ancient customs and disciplines that they inherited from the apostles, such as a married deacon and married priest. If they are integral to the Church, to borrow from them the permanent deaconate is not a deviation in faith, because we are borrwoing from ourselves.

Did we forget that the Bible in the language of the people was a Protestant idea, not a Catholic idea. We followed their lead on this.

Do we remember that we excommunicated many scientists during the Renaissance and now we have one of the largest and finest scientific centers of study in the world located right within the Vatican.

Finally, have we forgotten that Ecumenism is not a dirty word and that it was practiced by the Jesuits, Franciscans, Maryknoll and Missionaries of Charity long before Vatican II. The Vatican made a deal with the Palestinian government, before it was Israel to allow the Franciscans to work together.

Now we have some from SSPX that say that all of this is wrong. On what authority, if they have no central voice of authority and the only authority they recognize is the Pope, but they feel morally obliged to disobey.

This is what radical liberals did too after Vatican II and they claimed it was their conscience they were following. Traditionalists have rejected their claims, as well they should.

Why should I or any other Catholic accept the claims of someone who sounds like Luther? “I’m going to save the Church from herself.”

JR 🙂
:extrahappy: 👋 Go JR…Go JR Go JR

You always have such Great Posts. Thank you for being you.🙂
 
I’ve seen it. I googled ‘sspx, annulment’ and up popped four documents from sspx.
I’m not chasing anything. I want to see the link supporting the claim that the SSPX is granting annulments.

If no one wants to provide them, no biggie. They probably don’t exist anyway.
 
I’m not chasing anything. I want to see the link supporting the claim that the SSPX is granting annulments.

If no one wants to provide them, no biggie. They probably don’t exist anyway.
Some say ignorance is bliss.
I disagree so I did a five-second search.
Whatever.
 
Well, embrace ignorance if you like. Now, if you are talking about the four articles on the SSPX site,and actually read them, you will see that the SSPX does not “grant annulments”, nor do they accept diocean tribunal annulments as a free ticket to remarry. They advise against seeking such decisions.

The do decide if a marriage is valid or not, but do not grant annulments.

From what I can tell, they will accept the “living as brother and sister” arrangement if a marriage is indeed invalid. This would mean Chastity, separate beds, and not eating at the same table together.

Sin against the Sacrament of Marriage is not a game that can be won by finding loopholes in codes of canon law. The SSPX is right in holding this view.

Annulments have nothing to do with invalid marriages. If one makes vows and receives the Sacrament of Marriage validly, Lord have mercy on his/her soul if either party seeks to remarry after divorce.

JMO
 
Could you guys please stop referring to the SSPX as protestants?
  1. Not every heretic is “protestant.”
  2. Not every schismatic is “protestant.”
  3. The SSPX is not in formal Schism (If you disagree, please write a letter to Cardinal Hoyos and tell him why).
  4. If the SSPX are “protestants,” then so are the Orthodox.
  5. “Protestantism” cannot be solely defined as being disobedient to a Pope. If it could, several saints, medieval kings, etc. could be defined as “Protestant.” Every single Orthodox Christian could be called a Protestant. Protestant has a much stricter definition.
If they are Protestants, why did Pope Benedict talk about “An interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church?”

If you feel that the SSPX are schismatics, say they are schismatic. If you feel like a Catholic has entered into schism by denying the authority of the Papacy, called him a heretic/schismatic depending on the situation.

Let’s leave the term “Protestant” for actual protestants.
 
I am SORRY - but this is PATHETIC - the SSPX are PROTESTANT!!! I understand that the word can refer to the Reformation groups, but any SANE person will see that the Lefebvrites are AN EVIL NON-CATHOLIC CULT IN THE SERVICE OF SATAN.

No pathetic wishy-washy statements and circumlocutions by a superannuated Cardinal (HOYOS) will change the glorious words of OUR BELOVED JOHN PAUL THE GREAT who solemnly cursed the impudent Lefebvre with excommunication for his BLATANT DISOBEDIENCE AND SCHISM. The lefebvrites are non-Catholics, schismatics, excommunicates, outside the church. Period.

I am TIRED of people trying to defend them and promote their literature and propoganda. Why is this even allowed? Are we not Catholics? We have nothing to learn from these schismatics. When they come crawling back, begging pardon for their ERRORS AND DISOBEDIENCE, they will be received back into the Church, not a moment sooner.

I am sorry for being strident, but I was a Lefebvrite for 10 years nearly, before I recanted my errors and returned to the bosom of the One True Church. I will rfight Lefebvrism to the death!

Catharina, thanks for your pithy put-downs of piouswoman, and others! These non-Catholics must be put in their place. How pathetic are they!

mitch
 
I really think you cannot be “faithful” without being obedient.

Obedience to the Pope is TRADITION. Anyone who has separated themselves from the Pope is NOT following Tradition. You cannot say you uphold Tradition while leaving out some of the other parts of Traditions. Which to me, would negate your whole movement.

And, whether you all realize it or not, YOU have separated yourselves from Rome. 🤷
THANK YOU.

No-one can be saved except in subjection to the Roman Pontiff. As Bl Pius IX said" “I am Tradition”.

As a “recovering Lefebvrite” I can say this: if Pope Benedict XVI were to tell me the moon is made of green cheese, I’d get out my bread and butter! The Holy Father is SWEET CHRIST ON EARTH and it behoves us to SUBMIT to him and OBEY him AT ALL TIMES, NO MATTER WHAT.

The joy of being Catholic is that there is no private judgment - we have the Pope to do this, and what the Pope says, goes, even if we do not agree, understand, or THINK that it is wrong. Lefebvrists say that the Popes have contradicted Tradition. IMPOSSIBLE.

I invite my former co-religionists to taste the sweet joy of submission and total, unconditional acceptance. If there are things wrong in my parish, diocese, or the church at large - IT ISN’T MY PROBLEM.

God bless
Mitch
 
The term is not used to describe a Baptist or Church of Christ service. It is used to show a resemblance to a Luthern or Anglican Mass.
The statement "protestantized’ liturgy is in context of the Traditional Latin Mass. In the TLM communion is received only on the tongue. The protestant reformer Ulrich Zwingli introduce communion in the hand which was adopted for the Novus Ordo thereby “protestantizing” the Mass.
The TLM is in Latin. Luther and Cranmer eventually introduced the all vernacular mass which was adopted by the Novus Ordo therby “protestantizing” the Mass.
The TLM rubrics require that the Tabernalce be on the altar. The reformers removed the tabernacle. The Novus Ordo also removed the tabernacle from the altar thereby “protestantizing” the Mass.
In the TLM the priest faces liturgical east. The reformers faced the people and this was adopted in the Novus Ordo thereby "protestantizing " the Mass.
Active participation of the laity, popular music, the stripped down sanctuaries all were reforms made during the protestant reformation.
It doesn’t mean that doctrine has been ‘protestantized’ or the Mass is invalid but we need to be honest about it. The mass was changed to bring about a “road to union” and to remove impediments such as Latin and the adorned sanctuaries. This may have been a good thing or maybe the reforms went too far and maybe Pope Benedict will make the necessary changes to bring everything back into order. It remains to be seen.

One only need to read the words of Father Bugnini, the secretary of the Consilium that wrote the New Mass to see why the Mass was changed.

“Love of souls and the desire to facilitate in every way, by removing anything that could even remotely be an impediment or make them feel ill at ease, **the road to union **on the part of separated brethren, has induced the Church to make even these painful sacrifices"
L’Osservatore Romano of 19 March 1965
Our Refuge, please forgive me for not responding sooner.

With respect, please allow me to say that the examples you give are part of ancient history. Most Protestants have no concept of what you are talking about.

Both the Lutheran and the Episcopal churches in the U.S. have drastically dropped in membership in the last four decades, while evangelical and non-denominational churches have seen huge increases in membership.
What I’m saying is that in the U.S., when most Protestants think “Protestant,” they think “evangelical” or “non-denominational.”

And in reality, many Protestants are rejecting the term “Protestant”, often with a great deal of emotion. They insist that they are not “protesting” anything, and they will get ANGRY if you call them Protestant. I believe that within the next decade, we will see the term “Protestant” be eliminated from our vocabulary and classed with other racist and inflammatory words. (I’m not saying that I agree with this–I’m only pointing out what is happening in the real non-Catholic Christian world.)

Most of these evangelical and non-denominational Christians have no knowledge of their history and traditions. They know only today.

Communion in the hand vs. on the tongue? Nowadays, many Protestants get their communion from a paper plate at the back of the Church. They have no concept of receiving Communion in the hand or on the tongue–this means nothing to them.

A “tabernacle?” An “altar?” Most non-Catholic Christians know these terms only from the Old Testament. Many churches haven’t had an altar for decades–the one in my childhood church was eliminated years and years ago. And a tabernacle? That is a totally foreign concept to most non-Catholic Christians.

Facing east? Most non-Catholic Christians would look at you like an alien if you mentioned this ancient tradition.

As for the participation of the laity in the music, a reading of the New Testament will make it clear that Jesus’s disciples sang along with Him at the end of the Last Supper. And from what I have read of church history, there was a time in the Early Church when the people sang along–think of those martyrs marching to their deaths while singing hymns. I think that this is a reform that was needed in the Mass.

What I’m saying is that the “protestantizing” that you are speaking of would make no sense to modern Protestants. They would not recognize the “protestantized” examples you give as ever having come from Protestant churches.

So it’s beating a dead horse to worry about “protestantizing the Mass.” It’s no longer meaningful at this time in history, except to students of history and proponents of tradition for tradition’s sake.

The Church is not bound by tradition, but rather, tradition is determined by the Church of Jesus Christ, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The ending of traditions does not mean the ending of the Church.
 
The English martyrs suffered the ultimate sacrifice for the Faith, just as Archbishop Lefebvre suffered for the Faith, albeit not by a physical martyrdom. One does not suffer martyrdom for a pontiff, but for the Faith.
A faith defined by the individual, and not by the Church instituted by Christ. .
 
The fight for tradition is not confined simply to the TLM…no, it goes much deeper than that…it is about the doctrines of the faith.
The TLM is not part of the doctrine of the faith, and neither are headcoverings, kneeling for communion, etc. I
 
It was Cardinal Suenens who exclaimed, “Vatican II is the French Revolution in the Church”
sspxasia.com/Documents/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X/OpenLetterToConfusedCatholics/Chapter-14.htm
I just finished reading the letter written by Archbiship Lefevre. I have to say that he is elegant and I thank you for providing me with this link as it does explain his feelings quite well. However, I cannot agree with him. He makes references to such men as Ottaviani (sp?) and Bugnini, although he won’t call him by name. I regret sounding like a broken down record, but in his statement, which is very well written, I might add, we are left with taking his word that the affairs of the Council occurred in the manner he states, which is contrary to what is written itself about the Council. The references that are given are the same two French documents mentioned in the previous link, and the words of the Archbishop himself.

What is of interest is that the article articulates the position of Lefevre, so functions as a source in that sense. But, being myself an Engineer, I still have a tendency to demand statistics, numbers, and primary documents. While being the Archbishop’s words, it is second-hand at best and still highly anecdotal. I find frustrating the position that the Council and the Church since that time is soft on Communism. Any of us alive in the 1980’s can hardly agree, when considering John Paul II’s role in the destruction of the USSR, which history credits to him among others. The condemnation of liberation theology also springs to mind. These are easy to find facts. As for the Archbishops assertions, they can be vague at best as they do not easily allow for validation. I want to stress that I am referring to him as Archbishop in order to give him respect due to his office. I do not agree with him, and neither does the Vicar of Christ, but I am not going to insult him either.
 
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