SSPX update?

[Moore11]

I know I live in a very orthodox diocese; however, I travel quite a bit for work and have gone to Mass in many varied places and always found a perfectly revenant orthodox Mass. I may not have always liked every hymn choice and certainly some homilies were boring, but nothing heterodox. Yes, differences in atmospheres, but not to the extent that I couldn’t comfortably attend Mass.

Some of us are not so fortunate. I am always hopeful and comforted when I hear about people such as yourself in orthodox situations. Sometimes it is hard and one might be tempted to think the WHOLE Church is going the way of local Churches that may not be reverent or orthodox. But I do realize that outside of my little corner of the world that things are changing.

In my situation there are 8 parishes within reasonable distance. (an Hour,) ranging in degrees of reverence but still left wanting, From my house. On any given Sunday one could find quite a few serious abuses or only minor ones. It just depends. There is no EF within 282 miles and even that one is only offered once a month. And an SSPX chapel close by.

Personally, I have come to a conclusion:

The SSPX could take a cue from my position. I go to Masses that, without going into detail, can be quite odd. It can be disconcerting, and unsettling. But here is the thing. My Bishop, the leader of my Church, has asked not only that we attend faithfully, but also that we do not attend the SSPX chapel. He went so far as to publish a notice in the paper about them not being “Catholic” at all. Now, I know that they are debatably “Catholic” and I know that one “could” go to Mass there out of love for the EF. (I did once, not receiving, and following it up with Mass at my home parish just to cover my bases) BTW going from an SSPX to a lifeteen rock mass is quite the spectrum to cover in one day!

But my Bishop has asked as has the Pope and the Church in general that I be obedient. I have lived in 4 different diocese and have seen similar things. For years I have endured to be a faithful Catholic. This is our calling. This is our witness. To be obedient even when we think “we might know better than our Bishop” even though we do not.

My point is that throughout my adult life I have gone to Mass in a less than optimal situation. I personally think every LAY member of the SSPX should do exactly that. Attend Mass in a regularized Church. I have delt with various degrees of what I deem liturgical abuse for decades. If they did it for one year, JUST ONE YEAR, the entire society would be forced to join or die. It is a pipe dream, because as many have pointed out sometimes the laity that attend these chapels are the loudest critics and most vocal about some odd ideas themselves…

 

[JReducation]

Some of us are not so fortunate. I am always hopeful and comforted when I hear about people such as yourself in orthodox situations. Sometimes it is hard and one might be tempted to think the WHOLE Church is going the way of local Churches that may not be reverent or orthodox. But I do realize that outside of my little corner of the world that things are changing.

In my situation there are 8 parishes within reasonable distance. (an Hour,) ranging in degrees of reverence but still left wanting, From my house. On any given Sunday one could find quite a few serious abuses or only minor ones. It just depends. There is no EF within 282 miles and even that one is only offered once a month. And an SSPX chapel close by.

Personally, I have come to a conclusion:

The SSPX could take a cue from my position. I go to Masses that, without going into detail, can be quite odd. It can be disconcerting, and unsettling. But here is the thing. My Bishop, the leader of my Church, has asked not only that we attend faithfully, but also that we do not attend the SSPX chapel. He went so far as to publish a notice in the paper about them not being “Catholic” at all. Now, I know that they are debatably “Catholic” and I know that one “could” go to Mass there out of love for the EF. (I did once, not receiving, and following it up with Mass at my home parish just to cover my bases) BTW going from an SSPX to a lifeteen rock mass is quite the spectrum to cover in one day!

But my Bishop has asked as has the Pope and the Church in general that I be obedient. I have lived in 4 different diocese and have seen similar things. For years I have endured to be a faithful Catholic. This is our calling. This is our witness. To be obedient even when we think “we might know better than our Bishop” even though we do not.

My point is that throughout my adult life I have gone to Mass in a less than optimal situation. I personally think every LAY member of the SSPX should do exactly that. Attend Mass in a regularized Church. I have delt with various degrees of what I deem liturgical abuse for decades. If they did it for one year, JUST ONE YEAR, the entire society would be forced to join or die. It is a pipe dream, because as many have pointed out sometimes the laity that attend these chapels are the loudest critics and most vocal about some odd ideas themselves…

This is is very true. The more support that something illegal gets, the longer the standoff. I was reading on another site where some SSPX supporters are now clamoring for Bishop Williamson and against Bishop Fellay. That part did not strike me as remarkable at all. In any dispute, people take sides, even when it’s best to keep one’s mouth shut.

What I did find disheartening was that those who are clamoring for Bishop Williamson have thrown money into the issue. There are many many out there who are claiming that Bishop Fellay owes them explanations and should even step down, because they (the laity) have financed the SSPX.

I have mentioned this in the past. Many people here have become annoyed with me when I have said that religious orders and other Catholic institutions are not financially accountable to the laity. The law encourages some kind of financial report, which is not the same as submitting to the demands of the laity because the laity pays the bills. The reason is right here with the SSPX.

When things go the way that people want, no one brings up the issue of money and no one threatens to withdraw support for apostolic activity and its overhead. The moment that someone feels put out, entitlement rears its ugly head. This only serves to hurt more than it helps. For this reason Canon Law says that the lay faithful have a duty to support the apostolic work of religious institutes and societies of apostolic life and Canon Law does not put contingencies on the support. There is also a commandment of the Church that says that we must financially contribute to the Church. The idea behind these regulations was to curb what was once a very common practice by the aristocracy to try an govern the Church and her work through the power of money. It seems to be coming back into fashion.

As I always preach, charity is never contingent on our benefit. If that’s the case, it’s a transaction not love.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Faithdancer]

I attended an SSPX Mass today for the first time. I found the congregation to be conservative in dress and very reverent in attitude. There was not a word spoken against the Vatican or the OF Mass- not that I expected there would be. The homily was instructional in content, centered on how to lead a more prayerful life in the midst of a hectic lifestyle- it reminded me more than a little of the teachings of St. Josemaria Escriva. I thought the Chapel itself was very well appointed, the altar area was uncluttered, really just right, I thought, in terms of what was present and what was not. The red missalette, which I am getting used to from the diocesan EF Mass, is always a huge help. Finally, the church is on a quiet cul-de-sac in a residential neighborhood, and they did a great job with arranging the stations of the cross on the adjoining hillside just below a railroad grade.

I am certainly not advocating attending an SSPX Mass, just reporting my impressions. I will be attending a diocesan Mass this afternoon to fulfill my Sunday obligation. I will also return to the SSPX Chapel, not out of a spirit of disobedience, but in the spirit of reverence for the EF Mass and a spirit of love for fellow Catholics (and I will call them Catholics!). I feel in my heart that the parishioners I saw there are simply devout, traditional-minded Catholic Christians who deserve my love and respect just as any other fellow Catholic Christians do. But again, not advocating, and these are just my humble impressions and opinions. Interestingly, attending the SSPX Chapel today made me feel even greater love for the pope and all that he is doing to heal the wounds and division in our Church, while at the same time finding room in my heart for our SSPX brethren.

I will continue to pray for the full and complete reunion of SSPX priests and parishioners, and I hope that you will join your prayers to mine.

 

[R_C]

I attended an SSPX Mass today for the first time. …] I am certainly not advocating attending an SSPX Mass

I will refrain from any personal opinion on such a gesture and on these attempts at justifying it. I will, on the other hand, quote this document which clarifies a few interesting facts on attending the liturgies by this schismatic community.

The Masses they celebrate are also valid, but it is considered morally illicit for the faithful to participate in these Masses …]

While it is true that the participation in the Mass and sacraments at the chapels of the Society of St. Pius X does not of itself constitute “formal adherence to the schism”, such adherence can come about over a period of time as one slowly imbibes a mentality which separates itself from the magisterium of the Supreme Pontiff.

According to Canon 209:

The Christian faithful, even in their own manner of acting, are always obliged to maintain communion with the Church

I furthermore find your remarks on the - how do I word this… - elegance and grace of their liturgy, entirely pointless. Even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light I have previously read comments on this forum about, for instance, the Mass celebrated by the sedvacantist SSPV (no comment), defining it as “beautiful fully traditional Catholic”… maybe it is That does not mean anything I am sure that some of the celebrations of our fellow protestant brothers in Christ are very nice and devout, too

If one wants to attend Mass in the extraordinary form, he or she can check out the website of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter, in full communion with Holy Church, or even form a community of faithful interested in having the liturgy in the extraordinary form celebrated (no minimum number requirement) and contacting the local bishop (according to the Summorum Pontificum and the instruction Universae Ecclesiae).

We must be very careful, very careful indeed: Holy Church has always had Christ as Her Head and Bridegroom, and has always been guided by the Holy Spirit, and to it we owe obedience. The Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite is a Holy Mass, and to deny this is heresy.

I have been lately attending Sunday Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite and I can understand, it is beautiful and full of reverence. But so were the sacrifices of the priests whom Christ addressed as hypocrites and “white sepulchers”. This is something worth meditating on, to discern the subtle boundary of schism: pride and hypocrisy in disobedience are as evil as liturgical abuses. However, the latter are visible, the former are hidden in the intentions…which one, in your opinion, is worse, then? The one everyone can see and point their finger at, or the one that sneaks itself subtly into the ministers and faithful, hiding behind very good and worthy feelings?

Let us pray for our brothers who, in their love for the traditional forms, have taken steps away from the Church (and thus from God), that they may receive light from the Holy Spirit, who unites all the baptized in One Body, that they may soon return to full communion with the Holy Catholic Church. Let us extend this prayers to all of our brothers who are not yet in full communion: the Orthodox, the protestants, all Christians…and finally to all the children of God, Christians and non-Christians, believers and non-believers…God loves each of them infinitely, let us pray that by the unceasing work of Holy Church more and more may be reunited in the One Church.

Matthaeus 26:31
dicit illis Iesus:
“Omnes vos scandalum patiemini in me in ista nocte.
Scriptum est:
enim percutiam pastorem et dispergentur oves gregis”

Marcus 3:25
si regnum in se dividatur non potest stare regnum illud
si domus super semet ipsam dispertiatur, non poterit domus illa stare

Matthaeus 16:18
tu es Petrus
et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam
et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam

 

[freshwind]

I will refrain from any personal opinion on such a gesture and on these attempts at justifying it. I will, on the other hand, quote this document which clarifies a few interesting facts on attending the liturgies by this schismatic community.

With all due respect, this document is from 1995, and some things have changed.

This document is from 2007 renewamerica.com/columns/mershon/070410 and is a bit different in stating the current sircumstances as of 2007.

I am open to correction as well if someone has a more recent document, but following this discussion, this seems to be the most recent.

I do believe that the call for caution is warranted though, as we seem to be seeing a split in the SSPX as well, and our best course of action seems to be to continue in prayer for unity in His Church…may they all come home.

 

[Faithdancer]

I will refrain from any personal opinion on such a gesture and on these attempts at justifying it. I will, on the other hand, quote this document which clarifies a few interesting facts on attending the liturgies by this schismatic community.

According to Canon 209:

I furthermore find your remarks on the - how do I word this… - elegance and grace of their liturgy, entirely pointless. Even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light I have previously read comments on this forum about, for instance, the Mass celebrated by the sedvacantist SSPV (no comment), defining it as “beautiful fully traditional Catholic”… maybe it is That does not mean anything I am sure that some of the celebrations of our fellow protestant brothers in Christ are very nice and devout, too

If one wants to attend Mass in the extraordinary form, he or she can check out the website of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter, in full communion with Holy Church, or even form a community of faithful interested in having the liturgy in the extraordinary form celebrated (no minimum number requirement) and contacting the local bishop (according to the Summorum Pontificum and the instruction Universae Ecclesiae).

We must be very careful, very careful indeed: Holy Church has always had Christ as Her Head and Bridegroom, and has always been guided by the Holy Spirit, and to it we owe obedience. The Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite is a Holy Mass, and to deny this is heresy.

I have been lately attending Sunday Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite and I can understand, it is beautiful and full of reverence. But so were the sacrifices of the priests whom Christ addressed as hypocrites and “white sepulchers”. This is something worth meditating on, to discern the subtle boundary of schism: pride and hypocrisy in disobedience are as evil as liturgical abuses. However, the latter are visible, the former are hidden in the intentions…which one, in your opinion, is worse, then? The one everyone can see and point their finger at, or the one that sneaks itself subtly into the ministers and faithful, hiding behind very good and worthy feelings?

Let us pray for our brothers who, in their love for the traditional forms, have taken steps away from the Church (and thus from God), that they may receive light from the Holy Spirit, who unites all the baptized in One Body, that they may soon return to full communion with the Holy Catholic Church. Let us extend this prayers to all of our brothers who are not yet in full communion: the Orthodox, the protestants, all Christians…and finally to all the children of God, Christians and non-Christians, believers and non-believers…God loves each of them infinitely, let us pray that by the unceasing work of Holy Church more and more may be reunited in the One Church.

“Sedevancantist?” You must be thinking of some other organization. And, “Satan?” Really?

I will continue to pray for the Society of St. Pius X to be fully reconciled in the Roman Catholic Church, and I am confident that it will happen.

 

[Dee_S]

I will refrain from any personal opinion on such a gesture and on these attempts at justifying it. I will, on the other hand, quote this document which clarifies a few interesting facts on attending the liturgies by this schismatic community.

I have been lately attending Sunday Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite and I can understand, it is beautiful and full of reverence. But so were the sacrifices of the priests whom Christ addressed as hypocrites and “white sepulchers”.

I agree. Playing with*** fire*** is not a very good idea

 

[Faithdancer]

With all due respect, this document is from 1995, and some things have changed.

This document is from 2007 renewamerica.com/columns/mershon/070410 and is a bit different in stating the current sircumstances as of 2007.

I am open to correction as well if someone has a more recent document, but following this discussion, this seems to be the most recent.

I do believe that the call for caution is warranted though, as we seem to be seeing a split in the SSPX as well, and our best course of action seems to be to continue in prayer for unity in His Church…may they all come home.

Thank you for the link,freshwind. It is indeed consistent with my understanding of the current situation. This from the PCED communication to the Archdiocese of Salzburg concerning the Catholicism of lay faithful who attend SSPX masses:

“Regarding the faithful who sympathize with the SSPX, we must insist that
a. we are dealing with Catholic faithful who — provided they have performed no explicit actions — in no way wish to leave the Roman Catholic Church;
b. attending Masses celebrated by priests of the SSPX is not in itself a delict and does not bring about excommunication;
c. only those of the faithful who see the SSPX as the only true church, and who make this visible externally, incur the penalty of excommunication;”

Clearly, attending Mass at an SSPX Chapel neither makes one schismatic, or heretical. In fact it doesn’t even make one disobedient, provided one assists at the SSPX Mass for the right reasons, .i.e. love.

We should all accept the intentions of our Pope Benedict XVI toward SSPX and remember that they are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[R_C]

“Sedevancantist?” You must be thinking of some other organization. And, “Satan?” Really?

Ok, my apologies, I should use some words more carefully.

Society of St. Pius V, formed when nine priests of the Society of St. Pius X split from that organization …] regard the question of the legitimacy of the present hierarchy and the possibility that the Holy See is unoccupied to be unresolved. The SSPV does not impose sedevacantism as a morally binding teaching.

However the writings of one of the founders, fr. Cekada, who later founded an even more extremist group, are very clearly sedevacantist. I mistakenly drew the conclusion that fr. Cekada’s writings = SSPV doctrine, while this is not necessarily so, however SSPV still is a schismatic group even further separated from the Church than SSPX

And please do note that I only mention the worst of all examples, namely the adversary, to point that even the most terrible of all enemies can disguise itself as one of God’s messengers. It is a mere example that has nothing to do directly with any of these communities…I guess I could have said “don’t trust first impressions” instead

 

[R_C]

provided one assists at the SSPX Mass for the right reasons.

I am worried about our ability to discern the righteousness of those reasons.

There are plenty of “Catholic” ways - so to speak - to promote the Extraordinary Form. For instance, FSSP is very active in this sense, and to support it goes a long way in promoting this treasure of our faith.

We can also form a small community and obtain that the Extraordinary Form be celebrated in our diocese:

Art. 5. § 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962…]

Art. 7. If a group of lay faithful, as mentioned in art. 5 § 1, has not obtained satisfaction to their requests from the pastor, they should inform the diocesan bishop. The bishop is strongly requested to satisfy their wishes.

If he cannot arrange for such celebration to take place, the matter should be referred to the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei”.

As you can see from this section of the Summorum Pontificum (and from the relative instruction Universae Ecclesiae) nothing at all stops fellow Catholics from promoting and obtaining the celebration of the Extraordinary Form, and if a stable group of lay faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition does not obtain from their pastor nor from their bishop that the Extraordinary Form be celebrated, they are not just suggested but required to refer the matter to the Holy See.

Of course, it takes some effort. Some organization. Some discernment on why we want to celebrate in the Extraordinary Form. But if the right reasons are there, if there is commitment and faith, then it will be done.

Ah, there is no FSSP Mass in our area? We don’t want to bother to gather with our brothers who love the Latin Mass to form a community? We’d rather support a (to-some-extent) schismatic group and still consider ourselves fully Catholic? How very convenient…

Notice how the Holy Father takes a very clear stance in the Universae Ecclesiae: the faithful have the road paved to obtain celebration of the Extraordinary Form, however:

The faithful who ask for the celebration of the forma extraordinaria must not in any way support or belong to groups which show themselves to be against the validity or legitimacy of the Holy Mass or the Sacraments celebrated in the forma ordinaria or against the Roman Pontiff as Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church.

Here’s how I feel about this: either we embrace the Ordinary Form as the only Form we will ever have celebrate in our diocese, or we “roll up our sleeves, get down to work, and get the job done” to promote the Extraordinary Form the right way, which is the way defined by the Holy Father.

Anyways we still owe to the Ordinary Form the same love and devotion owed to the Extraordinary Form: as Cardinal Prefect Cañizares said upon agreeing to celebrate the Extraordinary Form in St. Peter yesterday:

there are two forms of the same Rite but there is only one Rite

 

[Faithdancer]

On another note- assuming that the expulsion of Bishop Williamson results in positive movement toward full and complete reconciliation of SSPX with Rome, and assuming that the “Personal Prelature” offer is still on the table- how advantageous is it for Bishop Fellay and the other leaders of SSPX to accept the offer for SSPX to become (only) the second Personal Prelature of the Catholic Church? I’m personally rooting for this outcome heart and soul, because I am a huge admirer of Opus Dei and the empowerment of the lay faithful with “the Work” entails. In fact, establishing Opus Dei as a Personal Prelature exquisitely embodies the Vatican II call to increase the saintly vocation of the lay faithful. But how could this play out for SSPX, should they become Personal Prelature #2? What would the focus of the Prelature of SSPX be- the preservation and proliferation of the EF Mass?

 

[Dee_S]

I attended an SSPX Mass today for the first time. I found the congregation to be conservative in dress and very reverent in attitude. There was not a word spoken against the Vatican or the OF Mass- not that I expected there would be. The homily was instructional in content, centered on how to lead a more prayerful life in the midst of a hectic lifestyle-** it reminded me more than a little of the teachings of St. Josemaria Escriva**. I thought the Chapel itself was very well appointed, the altar area was uncluttered, really just right, I thought, in terms of what was present and what was not. The red missalette, which I am getting used to from the diocesan EF Mass, is always a huge help. Finally, the church is on a quiet cul-de-sac in a residential neighborhood, and they did a great job with arranging the stations of the cross on the adjoining hillside just below a railroad grade.

What is exactly is your point? This reads like an advertizment. Why sing the praises of an organization that after 30 years of continued disobedience and rank rejection of the Supreme Authority of the Holy Father and the Church - has yet to accept the very Catholic obligation to submit to their Authority? Their outward appearance of reverence?

The beauty of the Mass is without dispute - but as the previous poster remarked, it is legitimately available elsewhere. Wiser to be cautious about this ‘angel of light’. “In order to sup with the Devil…you need a very long spoon.”

I am certainly not advocating attending an SSPX Mass, just reporting my impressions. I will be attending a diocesan Mass this afternoon to fulfill my Sunday obligation.** I will also return to the SSPX Chapel, not out of a spirit of disobedience, but in the spirit of reverence for the EF Mass and a spirit of love for fellow Catholics** (and I will call them Catholics!). I feel in my heart that the parishioners I saw there are simply devout, traditional-minded Catholic Christians who deserve my love and respect just as any other fellow Catholic Christians do. But again, not advocating, and these are just my humble impressions and opinions. Interestingly, attending the SSPX Chapel today made me feel even greater love for the pope and all that he is doing to heal the wounds and division in our Church, while at the same time finding room in my heart for our SSPX brethren.

Feelings - as all great saints advise - are not to be trusted. In this instance, there is no justification for ‘keeping company’ with those who’s schismatic mentality have put themselves outside of full communion with the Church.They have no canonical status in the Church as yet. The spirit of reverence you have for the EF Mass and your love of fellow Catholics must be guided by Prudence, if you are not to be led astray nor to lead any others astray in this dangerous attraction.

You were probably reminded of St Josemaria Escriva because some similarities exist with the SSPX:

“Escrivá and Opus Dei have aroused controversy, primarily revolving around allegations of secrecy, elitism, cult-like practices within Opus Dei, and political involvement with right-wing causes, such as the dictatorship of General Francisco Franco in Spain.”
%between%

Monsignor Vladimir Felzmann, a priest who worked as Escrivá’s personal assistant before leaving Opus Dei in 1981,[44] claimed in an interview for Newsweek that Escrivá was so distraught by the reforms introduced by the Second Vatican Council that he and his deputy, Álvaro del Portillo, “went to Greece in 1967 to see if [they] could bring Opus Dei into the Greek Orthodox Church. Escrivá thought the [Catholic] church was a shambles and that the Orthodox might be the salvation of himself and of Opus Dei as the faithful remnant.”[45]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josemar%C3%ADa_Escriv%C3%A1

 

[JReducation]

You know folks, one of the most wonderful things that has ever happened to me has been to be called to the Franciscan way of life. If there is one thing that I have learned from our Holy Father Francis, our Mother Clare, and all of our brothers and sisters in the Franciscan tradition during the last 800 years is to be reasonable.

Our Holy Father Francis, even though he was a very passionate man, was an extremely reasonable man. He changed what he could, left what he couldn’t change and accepted that someday God would send someone who could make a difference.

He also had a very practical mind. If it’s not poisonous, even if it’s not nutritious, it won’t kill one. Let the person eat it.

The Church has never said that a Catholic cannot fulfill his or her Sunday obligation at an SSPX chapel, under either head of the EDC, nor now under Archbishop DiNoia or Archbishop Mueller, as much as they are maligned by some members of the SSPX.

The Church has warned about the possibility of contamination with a schismatic mindset. This is a fair warning.

The Church has never said that the SSPX is in schism. She has never said that it is a heretical society.

She cannot speak for every individual associated with the SSPX anymore than she can speak for every individual associated with the mainstream Church. There are heretics in both groups and there are people in schism in both groups and those individuals are excommunicated automatically. We don’t need a big Hollywood production to excommunicate people. The law takes care of that. If you violate knowingly a law that carries the penalty of excommunication, then you’re excommunicated.

On the flip side, if you violate a law and don’t know that it carries the penalty of excommunication, you’re not excommunicated, despite the law. The good thing about ecclesial law is that “ignorance does excuse you.” This is not American law with which we’re dealing. This is Roman law. It follows a very different legal tradition.

So how does my eminently practical and passionate Seraphic Father fit into the picture?

He would look at this as follows.

1. The SSPX Mass is valid.
2. It is morally illegal for the priests of the SSPX to celebrate the mass without being incardinated into a diocese or religious community.
3. The laity are attending a mass that is being celebrated contrary to the law.
4. The laity is not bound to this law. It is the priest who needs to be incardinated; therefore, there is no objective culpability on the part of the laity attending these masses.
5. The laity must be warned that such celebrations are illegal and why they’re illegal.
6. The laity must also be warned that there are priests and laymen associate with the SSPX who may be heretics or in schism.
7. Once the information is shared, we are not the moral guardians of every human being on the face of the earth. Our duty is to the present moment and to those who are present, especially one’s brethren if one is religious and one’s family if one is a layman.
8. There are degrees of relationships. There are degrees of gravity.
9. Unless the other person attending the SSPX mass is my relative or a member of my religious community, he is remotely related to me. This leaves the degree of gravity. It has already been said that such a mass is valid, but illegal. It has also been said that the moral failure is on the part of the priest, not the laity. Therefore, there is minimal gravity, if at all here. So, now I have a person who is remotely associated with me doing something that is minimally sinful, it at all.
10. Conclusion: I have more important things to worry about.

Whoever said that Franciscans were not as intelligent as Dominicans and Jesuits?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[JM3]

nm.

 

[Dee_S]

Clearly, attending Mass at an SSPX Chapel neither makes one schismatic, or heretical. In fact it doesn’t even make one disobedient, provided one assists at the SSPX Mass for the right reasons, .i.e. love.

Love? “If you love me, obey my commandments”. The SSPX can claim all they like that they “love” the Pope, the Mass, the Faith etc etc. But love is proved in deeds…and theirs are on display for the whole world to see.

Yes, as an object of our prudent love - that in charity we are obliged. But, it does not take an extraordinary IQ to work out the rest.

 

[Faithdancer]

What is exactly is your point? This reads like an advertizment. Why sing the praises of an organization that after 30 years of continued disobedience and rank rejection of the Supreme Authority of the Holy Father and the Church - has yet to accept the very Catholic obligation to submit to their Authority? Their outward appearance of reverence?

The beauty of the Mass is without dispute - but as the previous poster remarked, it is legitimately available elsewhere. Wiser to be cautious about this ‘angel of light’. “In order to sup with the Devil…you need a very long spoon.”

Feelings - as all great saints advise - are not to be trusted. In this instance, there is no justification for ‘keeping company’ with those who’s schismatic mentality have put themselves outside of full communion with the Church.They have no canonical status in the Church as yet. The spirit of reverence you have for the EF Mass and your love of fellow Catholics must be guided by Prudence, if you are not to be led astray nor to lead any others astray in this dangerous attraction.

You were probably reminded of St Josemaria Escriva because some similarities exist with the SSPX:

“Escrivá and Opus Dei have aroused controversy, primarily revolving around allegations of secrecy, elitism, cult-like practices within Opus Dei, and political involvement with right-wing causes, such as the dictatorship of General Francisco Franco in Spain.”
%between%

Monsignor Vladimir Felzmann, a priest who worked as Escrivá’s personal assistant before leaving Opus Dei in 1981,[44] claimed in an interview for Newsweek that Escrivá was so distraught by the reforms introduced by the Second Vatican Council that he and his deputy, Álvaro del Portillo, “went to Greece in 1967 to see if [they] could bring Opus Dei into the Greek Orthodox Church. Escrivá thought the [Catholic] church was a shambles and that the Orthodox might be the salvation of himself and of Opus Dei as the faithful remnant.”[45]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josemar%C3%ADa_Escriv%C3%A1

By definition, the saintliness of St. Josemaria Escriva is beyond dispute. Also- just a friendly suggestion- I suggest you avoid using Wikipedia as a source, as it lacks academic credibility, at least at the post-secondary level.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Once you have made your point, move on. This forum is not for SSPX bashing.

 

[Dee_S]

1. The SSPX Mass is valid.
2. It is morally illegal for the priests of the SSPX to celebrate the mass without being incardinated into a diocese or religious community.
3. The laity are attending a mass that is being celebrated contrary to the law.
4. The laity is not bound to this law. It is the priest who needs to be incardinated; therefore, there is no objective culpability on the part of the laity attending these masses.
5. The laity must be warned that such celebrations are illegal and why they’re illegal.
6. The laity must also be warned that there are priests and laymen associate with the SSPX who may be heretics or in schism.
7. Once the information is shared, we are not the moral guardians of every human being on the face of the earth. Our duty is to the present moment and to those who are present, especially one’s brethren if one is religious and one’s family if one is a layman.

Br. JR, FFV

I agree and disagree

Yes, once the information is shared… but think we have a duty of sorts to challenge those who promote such an imprudent liaison with the likes of those themselves a bit like Richard Williamson, who claims intellectual & moral superiority over his fellow man, but is too obtuse to change or retract his offensive and erroneous opinions of the Holocaust

This ‘letter’ cannot be considered out-dated or irrelevant (my bold):
Protocol 539/99

**PONTIFICIA COMMISSIO “ECCLESIA DEI”**N. 539/99 Rome, 28 September 1999
Mr. Joseph E. Rebbert
10024 Piebald Lane
Dewey
Arizona 86327
**U.S.A.
Dear Mr. Rebbert,
We wish to acknowledge receipt of your letter to His Eminence Cardinal
Ratzinger. It has been transmitted to this Pontifical Commission as dealing
with matters that come within our particular competence.
With regard to the schismatic Society of St. Pius X we can say the
following:

1. The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained,
   but suspended, that is** prohibited from exercising their priestly functions**
   because they are not properly incardinated in a diocese or religious
   institute in full communion with the Holy See (cf. canon 265) and also
   because those ordained after the schismatic episcopal ordinations were
   ordained by an excommunicated bishop. They are also excommunicated if
   they adhere to the schism (cf. Ecclesia Del, #5, c). While up to now the
   Holy See has not defined what this .adherence consists in, one could point
   to a wholesale condemnation of the Church since the Second Vatican Council
   and a refusal to be in communion with it (cf. canon 751 on the definition
   of schism).** Further, it is likely that these priests, after eleven years
   in a society whose head is now an excommunicated bishop, effectively adhere
   to the schism. . **.
2. Concretely this means that the Masses offered by the priests of
   the Society of St. Pius X are valid, but illicit i.e., contrary to Canon
   Law. The Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony, however, require that the
   priest enjoys the faculties of the diocese or has proper delegation. Since
   that is not the case with these priests, these sacraments are invalid. It
   remains true, however, that, if the faithful are genuinely ignorant that the
   priests of the Society of St. Pius X do not have the proper faculty to
   absolve, the Church supplied these faculties so that the sacrament was valid
   (cf. Code of Canon Law c. 144).
3. The situation of the faithful attending chapels of the Society of
   St. Pius X is more complicated. They may attend Mass there primarily
   because of an attraction to the earlier form of the Roman Rite in which
   case they incur no penalty. The difficulty is that the longer they
   frequent these chapels, the more likely it is that they will slowly imbibe
   the schismatic mentality which stands in judgement of the Church and
   refuses submission to the Roman Pontiff and communion with the members of
   the Church subject to him. If that becomes the case, then it would seem
   that they adhere to the schism and are consequently excommunicated.
   For these reasons this Pontifical Commission cannot encourage you
   to frequent the chapel of the Society of St. Pius X. On the other hand it
   would seem that you are among those who attend Mass in chapels
   of the Society of St. Pius X because of the
   reverence and devotion which they find there, because of their
   attraction to the traditional Latin Mass and not because
   they refuse submission to the Roman Pontiff or reject communion with the
   members of the Church subject to him. At the same time it must be admitted
   that – this is an irregular situation, even if the circumstances which have
   caused it have come about through no fault of your own, and it should be
   remedied as soon as circumstances permit.
   With prayerful best wishes I remain
   Sincerely yours in Christ,
   Msgr. Camille Perl
   Secretary
   unavoce.org/resources/protocol-53999/

 

[Dee_S]

By definition, the saintliness of St. Josemaria Escriva is beyond dispute. Also- just a friendly suggestion- I suggest you avoid using Wikipedia as a source, as it lacks academic credibility, at least at the post-secondary level.

I thought you would say that, all ‘academics’ make that claim. Nevertheless, wiki is a good starting point which does present information in a reasonably balanced manner (certainly sufficient for discussions on threads of this type) and does provide links to primary sources for the more erudite.

Sorry to say, but the saintliness of St Josemaria Escriva is and was, not beyond dispute. Here are a few more extracts from wiki - which will elucidate this for you:

“Various critics questioned what they saw as Escrivá’s lightning canonization. On the eve of Escrivá’s beatification in 1992, journalist William D. Montalbano, writing for the Los Angeles Times, described it as “perhaps the most contentious beatification in modern times.”[95]”

"…the Swiss theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar wrote in an article from 1963 that Escrivá’s The Way provided an “insufficient spirituality” to sustain a religious organization and that the book was hardly more than “a little Spanish manual for advanced Boy Scouts”.[39] Von Balthasar also questioned the attitudes towards prayer reflected in The Way, declaring that Escrivá’s approach to prayer

"…moves almost exclusively within the circle of the self, of a self that must be great and strong, equipped with pagan virtues, apostolic and Napoleonic. That which is most necessary, which is the contemplative rooting of the Word “on good soil” (Matthew 13:8), that which constitutes the aim of the prayers of the saints, of the great founders, the prayer of a Foucauld, is something one will search for in vain here.""

“In addition to the questions raised about the depth of Escrivá’s spirituality and theological thinking, about his purported habits of secretiveness and elitism, about his alleged bad temper and ambition for social status and worldly luxuries, several other specific aspects of Escrivá’s life and work have generated criticism in some quarters, particularly in light of his canonization by the Catholic Church. These sources of criticism include his alleged private statements in defense of Adolf Hitler, claims of collaboration by members of Opus Dei with right-wing political causes (especially under General Francisco Franco’s dictatorship in Spain), Escrivá’s request for the rehabilitation in his favor of an aristocratic title, and allegations that he maintained strained relations with other Catholic leaders, of whom he could be witheringly critical in private.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josemaría_Escrivá

 

[JReducation]

I agree and disagree

Yes, once the information is shared… but think we have a duty of sorts to challenge those who promote such an imprudent liaison with the likes of those themselves a bit like Richard Williamson, who claims intellectual & moral superiority over his fellow man, but is too obtuse to change or retract his offensive and erroneous opinions of the Holocaust

This ‘letter’ cannot be considered out-dated or irrelevant (my bold):
Protocol 539/99

**PONTIFICIA COMMISSIO “ECCLESIA DEI”***N. 539/99 Rome, *28 September 1999

Everything in my post contains what is in this letter and those that came after it. The letter is not lost on me nor is the SSPX’s situation.

However, one has to think with the Church and act with the Church. As I read what comes out of the Vatican lately, I don’t see the SSPX in its top 10 concerns. The message of the CDF was loud and clear. Let the SSPX take its time to respond to Rome’s offer. In the meantime, we’re closing for lunch and a siesta. Afterward, we’re doing to deal with more pressing matters. The SSPX is not such a pressing matter.

1. The Bishop’s conference in Uruguay just excommunicated almost every legislator in the Congress. Now the Vatican has to determine if the excommunications are valid or not.
2. The USA is having an election this week that affects the lives of more people than the SSPX.
3. There is hunger, death and destruction left in Sandy’s path, in the USA and the Caribbean. The Church has to respond to that more urgently than to the concerns of those who want to attend a valid mass at an SSPX chapel.
4. Most of the bishops what Bl. John Paul appointed are reaching retirement age and we need to replace them, but the pool is getting smaller. The SSPX can wait, the dioceses cannot.
5. Between 1985 and 2013, 150 new religious orders have sprung up around the world, despite a vocation crisis in some places. Now the Vatican and the bishops have to assess the viability and sustainability of such order. This is more urgent that the SSPX’s mass.
6. The sexual abuse scandal is still in our faces.
7. Adult faith formation and catechesis are in shambles.
8. The is the Year of Faith. There are too many activities and functions that the pope, bishops, clergy, religious and laity have to attend to, more important than who attends an SSPX mass.
9. Then there is the stuff going on in my home, my family and my parish.
10. When we can get a grip on all the above, we can deal with the SSPX mass attendees. In the meantime, I’m not worrying about it. If someone asks, I’ll answer. If they ask more, I’ll clarify. If they don’t want to hear more, I just walk away like every good Franciscan has done for 800 years. That’s how we have kept our sanity and remained the largest religious order in the Church. We’re practical. What else can I say?

There is always a hierarchy of priorities and the SSPX does not make it to the top 25 of the Catholic Church’s priorities this month. Maybe next month, but not this month. Too much going on. Ask any priest, brother, sister or diocesan employee.

If you go up to them and say, “SSPX . . … [insert idea]” You’ll get a “What does this have to do with us” look. We’re too busy to worry about them. That’s Ecclesia Dei’s problem and ED does not seem to anxious about it right now.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV