SSPX v Church Militant

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FiveLinden

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As some will know I am not a believer but fascinated by the phenomenon of belief. I appreciate the courtesy and charity of others here in putting up with me.

I have for a long time been interested in the vehemence with which the SSPX promotes its views and have looked on with wonder as Church Militant pursues its own extraordinary course towards I know not what.

Today I have been reading a detailed attack by CM on the SSPX over cases of child sexual abuse and alleged cover-ups. The SSPX clearly feels unable to ignore the attack and has made an initial response, promising more.

I’d appreciate any dispassionate analysis, or links to it, of the enmity between these two tendencies which seems to me to be very deep. Why do two traditionalist groups not find common ground instead of this sort of thing?

I do not mean to stir up conflict between CAFers of different affiliations - I’m looking for analysis, not anger.
 
I think that whole that “SSPX promotion” gone in wrong direction. We expect unity (and I want unity of all those who are divided from Church in any aspect) but we also have alot of
good<better<the best “liturgy catholics”
in way that shouldn’t be looked at. With bunch of people who support only one stream of every of them and barely want to accept anything what isn’t Latin or some other form. I think it is not how some things should work.
 
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FiveLinden said:
Why do two traditionalist groups not find common ground instead of this sort of thing?
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Traditionalist groups are by nature separatist and factionary, as they are driven primarily by a desire for doctrinal and ideological purity. Tiny differences can lead to infighting and splitting. That is why there are over four hundred Traditionalist groups in the US alone, with more forming every day. The SSPX has gone through several splits itself, with the SSPV, FSPP and the SSPX resistance breaking off to go their very separate ways.

A key point of contention among Tradtionalists is how to treat the Church in Rome under Pope Francis, and how to treat the OF Mass. Some Traditionalists are in full communion, whereas others, like the SSPX are not. Some are full on schismatic, and consider Pope Francis the Devil incarnate and the OF Mass a Satanic ritual, with varying degrees of foaming at the mouth.

Add to the mix Voris’s extreme obsession with homosexuality, and his extreme Trumpist political loyalties, and it inevitable that heated disagreements arise that result in outright hostility and vitriol.

To put things in perspective, though, this is but one of hundreds of hostile conflicts within the Traditionalist movement that keeps them from coalescing into anything effective or lasting.
 
Church Militant isn’t a group of any kind. It’s a company made up of one person (and maybe some production crews) with a website and social media/video savvy. A person who considered himself an apologist and a journalist.

The company used to go by another name that had Catholic in it until the archdiocese of Detroit (where the company is located) warned people away from them and directed them to remove Catholic from their name under canon 216 because they did not have the consent of the competent authority (the archbishop).

SSPX is a priestly association, so quite a different thing altogether.
 
FiveLinden said:
I’d appreciate any dispassionate analysis, or links to it, of the enmity between these two tendencies which seems to me to be very deep. Why do two traditionalist groups not find common ground instead of this sort of thing?
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My opinion only, which I know some will disagree with. They are competing for the attentions of a pretty small group of people. They each want to be the dominate voice in their niche. In that context, it makes sense to spend energy attacking competitors in-group, rather than teaming with those competitors. Not an unusual phenomenon, really.
 
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Church Militant’s modus operandi is attack. That’s all they do. Most of the time with extreme prejudice,
lies and falsehoods. Not defending SSPX by any means but given the hostile muckraking garbage that CM spews forth daily, caveat emptor.
 
God bless Church Militant for holding all accountable for the rape of the innocent. Without them many of the predators would still be out there. One may disagree with how they attack but in my opinion they are too gentle for what the likes of these men deserve.

Bring them all down, bring those who supported and covered it up down, and let’s start clean with the remaining good clergy and setup systems to hold them accountable and trasnparent.
 
All faithful Catholics are Traditional. That means they rely on the guidance of Bible, Sacred Tradition, Magisterium.

Many Christians, including relatively few Catholics, are Bible only. Sola Scriptura supporters very often disagree with each other. If you go on fundamentalist websites, they devote a great deal of attention refuting other fundamentalist groups, though they all are Sola Scriptura.

Traditionalist groups are solo Traditio. They may refer to this or that magisterium document from over 60 years ago, but are not under the authority of the magisterium today.

Thus it’s not surprising they will disagree among themselves. In this particular case, CM had adopted a policy of “if it bleeds, it leads”. Nothing brings in the bucks like the lurid.

Based on what I have seen of CM’s coverage of matters in my Diocese, that I have some familiarity with, they have a credibility slightly below that of the Defrocked Astrologers Association.
 
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commenter said:
Traditionalist groups are solo Traditio. They may refer to this or that magisterium document from over 60 years ago, but are not under the authority of the magisterium today.
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I’m sorry but in all charity, this has been said several times now and it is so not correct. Traditionalist Catholics are not solo Traditio. Traditionalists do not rely on tradition alone. There is no where this is ever said except here at CAF. In essence by saying this you are saying that the Traditionalist societies that are completely under the magisterium, even founded by the magisterium are not under the magisterium. That is neither fair nor correct. It is also implying that they have thrown out Scripture, which is neither a fair or correct statement either. 🙂
commenter said:
All faithful Catholics are Traditional . That means they rely on the guidance of Bible, Sacred Tradition, Magisterium
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This is true.
FiveLinden said:
Why do two traditionalist groups not find common ground instead of this sort of thing?
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If you are asking about CM and SSPX, my own analysis is that CM was asked to remove Catholic from their name and Catholics are encouraged not to go to their website. The SSPX on the other hand has been in communication with Rome for many years. The Pontifical Commision Ecclesia Dei, Pope Benedict and Pope Francis have granted them certain faculties and more and just IMHO and what I have seen, CM is possibly angry and envious over this. If you search on their website you will find 10 pages worth of articles regarding the SSPX and some articles SSPX and Pope Francis.The thing that exploded this recent article IMHO again is more to do with whatever happened between Marshall and Gordon. I say this because Gordon and Voris have been friends for years and those who sided with Gordon in this thing are still talking and tweeting about it and the tweets seemed to be more focued on the SSPX’s canonical status rather than the article.
 
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I think of the SSPX like the Ghost army in the Lord of the Rings.

When the traditionalists need was most dire and
they were called to fight, (the modernist heresy) they fled and left us traditionanists to fight it alone.

whe
 
Both CM and SSPX appear to have some relationship/communication with the hierarchy in general, at least on some matters. Neither of them have their public ministries in specific relationship with the Ordinary of the diocese (s) where they are located, as required by canon law.
 
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commenter said:
Neither of them have their public ministries in specific relationship with the Ordinary of the diocese (s) where they are located, as required by canon law
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With regard to CM, do they teach the faith such that they should need such a relationship? I feel pretty safe in assuming that not all businesses owned by Catholics need to be cleared by the local ordinary, even a media business.
 
When Pope Francis granted certain faculties to the SSPX, such as confession and to assist in or perform marriages, it was put under the jurisdiction of their local bishops. According to Fr. Paul Robinson in the recent video, he has stated that many bishops have already made agreements with the SSPX communities regarding confession and marriage ceremonies, allowing these sacraments, so many are in communication with their local bishops as allowed by Pope Francis.

While I do not agree with everything the SSPX does or has done in the past, I want to make sure there is clarity regarding their status.
 
As a member of the Archdiocese of Detroit, I can say I trust the authorities in place. Archbishop Vigneron is a great and orthodox man. I met him briefly once and he was very sincere. No falseness.

I would prefer to see CM in line with the local ordinary. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem possible at this point with how many slanderous accusations they’ve lodged against the Archdiocese. They’ve attacked everyone they could and insinuated they were gay and so on.
 
Refer to Pascendi 50 - 53, the V2 document on Social Communication, and the Code of Canon Law.
 
StudentMI said:
I would prefer to see CM in line with the local ordinary. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem possible at this point with how many slanderous accusations they’ve lodged against the Archdiocese. They’ve attacked everyone they could and insinuated they were gay and so on.
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This is why I believe it is wrong to put CM against the SSPX or in the same category as the SSPX. The SSPX is a Catholic fraternal society of priests. CM is definitely not that.

CM has launched attacks at sooo many people in the Church. I can’t read their hearts or their motives but they seem to be very angry at the Church. I understand there is a sex abuse crisis happening and it needs rooted out but there is a way to do this and way not to do this and IMHO I think CM is doing more harm to the Church than good.
 
Police reports, indictments, and court rulings, and prison sentences against the sexual predators in this CM report isn’t fact enough to prove CM is simply reporting ‘facts’ to many on CAF users. Doesn’t surprise me. Those claiming CM is ‘harming’ the Church are the very ones we all need to beware of.
 
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