V
Verbum_Caro
Guest
Dave,
Excellent post! Thank you for all the information.
St. Athanasius, pray for us!
VC
Excellent post! Thank you for all the information.
St. Athanasius, pray for us!
VC
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M
MariaG
Guest
Yes, Thanks Dave! I was at somewhat of a loss as to how to answer VC’s question.Dave,
Excellent post! Thank you for all the information.
St. Athanasius, pray for us!
VC
I suppose I could have muddled through and came up with something, but Dave did a very good job indeed:thumbsup:
God bless,
Maria
G
GWSCatholic
Guest
Not very Christian to criticize comments in regard to spelling. Some of the world’s foremost individuals had difficulty with spelling, yet their ideas have lasting impact. Don’t put someone down because of spelling errors, instead, take heart as to the content of their message.
I am Roman Catholic, and I span both the pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II eras. In some cases, the church has gone to the extreme with poor liturgies but, by and large, the great majority of parishes provide prayerful, respectful and welcoming liturgies. I respect the RC traditions , however, there is always room for evolution and change. The Tridentine Mass didn’t ALWAYS exist…it evolved from earlier forms. The Last Supper was a simple meal where bread and wine were shared. Through the words of consecration, the bread and wine became Christ’s Body and Blood. However, there was no incense, frilly altar coverings, ornate vestments, etc. The Mass then was simple; the community would gather to ask forgiveness of their sins, hear and learn from the Word, and receive Christ in Eucharist. The Mass of today, when prayerfully celebrated, does just that, In my conversations with SSPX members, they emphasize so much the rubrics of the Mass, Latin, the priest facing the wall, the rituals, etc. None of this is a big deal…none was ever instituted by Christ. It doesn’t matter how many times in a Mass the priest should bow or genuflect, or face the wall…in the earliest liturgies the priest All of this is all man made, NOT God made.Yes, Latin is beautiful, but what is the sense of celebrating Mass in a language understood by very few? Sure there were missals, but that meant the passive, rather than active, participation of the community. I remember seeing many people kneeling and praying their rosaries, etc.The rosary is a beautiful prayer, but not at Mass. One of the beautiful aspects of the Mass today is the ACTIVE participation of the community. Prayers in the vernacular are no less holy that those recited in Latin. What is wrong with lay people reading Scripture, or of the participation of the community…after all, WE are the Church.The church is community. We are community. The Mass is not a spectacle. It is a liturgical celebration that WE, as part of Christ’s church, come together and ACTIVELY pray…not watch.
I am supportive of the reunification of the SSPX community with Rome, since the OPTION of the Tridentine tradition should be made available to the Catholic community, if one wishes to follow it. However, the SSPX share a view that the Catholic church should return to the pre-Vatican II views of Christian faiths outside of Roman tradition, and to this I say a very firm NO. Yes, there are some significant theological differences, however, it is important to emphasize what unites us, and I firmly believe that an individual, that follows their conscience and their church’s teachings, no matter what tradition it may be, earns their reward in heaven as anyone. Heaven has no “levels.” If we love and serve God, that is what matters.
I am Roman Catholic, and I span both the pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II eras. In some cases, the church has gone to the extreme with poor liturgies but, by and large, the great majority of parishes provide prayerful, respectful and welcoming liturgies. I respect the RC traditions , however, there is always room for evolution and change. The Tridentine Mass didn’t ALWAYS exist…it evolved from earlier forms. The Last Supper was a simple meal where bread and wine were shared. Through the words of consecration, the bread and wine became Christ’s Body and Blood. However, there was no incense, frilly altar coverings, ornate vestments, etc. The Mass then was simple; the community would gather to ask forgiveness of their sins, hear and learn from the Word, and receive Christ in Eucharist. The Mass of today, when prayerfully celebrated, does just that, In my conversations with SSPX members, they emphasize so much the rubrics of the Mass, Latin, the priest facing the wall, the rituals, etc. None of this is a big deal…none was ever instituted by Christ. It doesn’t matter how many times in a Mass the priest should bow or genuflect, or face the wall…in the earliest liturgies the priest All of this is all man made, NOT God made.Yes, Latin is beautiful, but what is the sense of celebrating Mass in a language understood by very few? Sure there were missals, but that meant the passive, rather than active, participation of the community. I remember seeing many people kneeling and praying their rosaries, etc.The rosary is a beautiful prayer, but not at Mass. One of the beautiful aspects of the Mass today is the ACTIVE participation of the community. Prayers in the vernacular are no less holy that those recited in Latin. What is wrong with lay people reading Scripture, or of the participation of the community…after all, WE are the Church.The church is community. We are community. The Mass is not a spectacle. It is a liturgical celebration that WE, as part of Christ’s church, come together and ACTIVELY pray…not watch.
I am supportive of the reunification of the SSPX community with Rome, since the OPTION of the Tridentine tradition should be made available to the Catholic community, if one wishes to follow it. However, the SSPX share a view that the Catholic church should return to the pre-Vatican II views of Christian faiths outside of Roman tradition, and to this I say a very firm NO. Yes, there are some significant theological differences, however, it is important to emphasize what unites us, and I firmly believe that an individual, that follows their conscience and their church’s teachings, no matter what tradition it may be, earns their reward in heaven as anyone. Heaven has no “levels.” If we love and serve God, that is what matters.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Seems–the influence of the sit down for communion crowd on some people is becoming more evident.
D
dizzy_dave
Guest
The SSPX is NOT in schism according to Cardinal Hoyos he has said several times recently. The SSPX is treated the way they are because they oppose the “new church” establishment, and rightly so. Its funny how no one seems to understand what schism really means. The SSPX did NOT set out to start a new religion, as did the orthodox and the protestants. The SSPX acknowledges that Pope Benedict XVI is the true Pope - schismatics do not do that. Yes they are an irregular group and they and the Vatican have taken several steps toward regularizing the group. Its also funny that the “church” in China can “ordain” 100 Bishops or more with out Papal aprroval and that seems to be just fine and they are not called schismatics, but when the SSPX does the same thing with only 4 Bishops its not okay, sounds a bit funny to me. The SSPX is doing what the church has done since Vatican II, so how can that all of a sudden be wrong, that’s what the FSSP does and they are approved - but the Vatican keeps a tight grip on them because they are traditional Catholics. I agree with a previous poster who said read the encyclicals from SAINT Pope Pius X, BLESSED Pope Pius IX and Pope Leo XIII, then compare those to what the modern church is. The Church has changed drastically in the last 40 years, and NOT for the better.
B
BobP123
Guest
Editted from the traditio website, though the individual quotes appear elsewhere:
C
Carol_Susanna
Guest
Wow! I haven’t been here since April and now everyone is rehashing comments made about SSPX. [Edited by Moderator]
As to GWS Catholic. I don’t think you understand the word Christian at all. It is more Christian to relay the Truth, than to worry about someone’s spelling. Ignorance is involved here, and you are extremely ignorant of your faith. What you state about the Tridentine Rite and the manner of performing the Adorable Sacrament is entirely false. Someone has brainwashed you to the inth degree. The only thing which changed in the Mass was the language used. It went from Hebrew to Greek to Latin. The rite was more elaborate, with the curtain which separated the people from the Priest in the earlier Church, but which was removed later so that people and priest wouldn’t be so separated in the Adorable Sacrament. Changes were minimal, and prayers were added to such a degree that they did shorten it in the earlier church from 3 hours to 1 1/2 hours. You act as though Rubrics are trifles, when, indeed, they have meaning far greater than anyone has yet anticipated or deemed necessary. Dear sir, you need to read books concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass written in the early 1900’s or late 1800’s to get a good idea of what the Church teaches with regard to the Tridentine Rite, or the True Mass in general. [Edited by Moderator] as Luther took out the Altar and turned it into a Table, gave Communion in the hand, as he did not believe in the True Presence, gave Communion under both kinds, because he did not deem that the Body and Blood of Christ remained in the Holy Eucharist or Host, just as much as in the Wine, which is His Body and Blood also, and turned the Altar around to face the people. He also married a Catholic Nun even though this marriage was invalid according to Canon Law. Luther cursed the Holy Father because he Excommunicated him, and did so until his dying day. The Holy Fathers of the Church have stated that Luther is most likely in Hell, as there was no evidence of his repentance before death, and I’m afraid those who follow him will go there also, if they don’t give up their errors and the evils of the Lutheran Faith, which indeed promote Birth Control, Divorce, and other evils which the True Catholic Church always detested and which are grievously sinful. As far as Luther was concerned anyone can go to Heaven if they say Jesus is Lord. You can commit the most heinous crimes against the faith, the most horrible mortal sins, but if you say Jesus is Lord, then all is well and you will go to Heaven. That is the mixed up thinking of Protestants in general [Edited by Moderator]. How many people have walked away from Confession wondering what to think, because the priest laughed them to scorn over their trifling sins (their emphasis). Many just gave up going to Confession.
Read the Catechism of the Council of Trent to get a good idea of what the Church teaches and has always taught with regard to our faith. It was written exclusively to combat the errors of Luther and his henchmen. Many Catholics lost their lives in Germany due to Luther and his followers who would hunt down Catholic Priests and put them to death, and anyone who followed the Holy Father and Rome. Luther was responsible for the 30 years war which killed thousands in those 30 years.
Folks please read the Pascendi Gregis of Pope St. Pius X, [Edited by Moderator].
May God grant you wisdom, but you must pray the Daily Rosary and keep close to the Mother of God in order to see truth. She is the crusher of demons and the destroyer of heresies. The Church in Rome is in Schism, not those who wish to keep the Faith intact.
As to GWS Catholic. I don’t think you understand the word Christian at all. It is more Christian to relay the Truth, than to worry about someone’s spelling. Ignorance is involved here, and you are extremely ignorant of your faith. What you state about the Tridentine Rite and the manner of performing the Adorable Sacrament is entirely false. Someone has brainwashed you to the inth degree. The only thing which changed in the Mass was the language used. It went from Hebrew to Greek to Latin. The rite was more elaborate, with the curtain which separated the people from the Priest in the earlier Church, but which was removed later so that people and priest wouldn’t be so separated in the Adorable Sacrament. Changes were minimal, and prayers were added to such a degree that they did shorten it in the earlier church from 3 hours to 1 1/2 hours. You act as though Rubrics are trifles, when, indeed, they have meaning far greater than anyone has yet anticipated or deemed necessary. Dear sir, you need to read books concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass written in the early 1900’s or late 1800’s to get a good idea of what the Church teaches with regard to the Tridentine Rite, or the True Mass in general. [Edited by Moderator] as Luther took out the Altar and turned it into a Table, gave Communion in the hand, as he did not believe in the True Presence, gave Communion under both kinds, because he did not deem that the Body and Blood of Christ remained in the Holy Eucharist or Host, just as much as in the Wine, which is His Body and Blood also, and turned the Altar around to face the people. He also married a Catholic Nun even though this marriage was invalid according to Canon Law. Luther cursed the Holy Father because he Excommunicated him, and did so until his dying day. The Holy Fathers of the Church have stated that Luther is most likely in Hell, as there was no evidence of his repentance before death, and I’m afraid those who follow him will go there also, if they don’t give up their errors and the evils of the Lutheran Faith, which indeed promote Birth Control, Divorce, and other evils which the True Catholic Church always detested and which are grievously sinful. As far as Luther was concerned anyone can go to Heaven if they say Jesus is Lord. You can commit the most heinous crimes against the faith, the most horrible mortal sins, but if you say Jesus is Lord, then all is well and you will go to Heaven. That is the mixed up thinking of Protestants in general [Edited by Moderator]. How many people have walked away from Confession wondering what to think, because the priest laughed them to scorn over their trifling sins (their emphasis). Many just gave up going to Confession.
Read the Catechism of the Council of Trent to get a good idea of what the Church teaches and has always taught with regard to our faith. It was written exclusively to combat the errors of Luther and his henchmen. Many Catholics lost their lives in Germany due to Luther and his followers who would hunt down Catholic Priests and put them to death, and anyone who followed the Holy Father and Rome. Luther was responsible for the 30 years war which killed thousands in those 30 years.
Folks please read the Pascendi Gregis of Pope St. Pius X, [Edited by Moderator].
May God grant you wisdom, but you must pray the Daily Rosary and keep close to the Mother of God in order to see truth. She is the crusher of demons and the destroyer of heresies. The Church in Rome is in Schism, not those who wish to keep the Faith intact.
D
dizzy_dave
Guest
This book is outdated, A lot has changed since then. It fell short on many points anyway.
B
BobP123
Guest
“Yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he” Matt 11:11
What happened to that thread anyway?
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
On what points does it fall short?
M
mark_a
Guest
This might be totally out of left field, but our former parish priest was allowed by a local Lutheran Church hold mass there until our church was built.
P
paramedicgirl
Guest
And at a funeral Mass I attended, the Catholic priest called on the Protestant minister (brother of the deceased) to read the gospel and give the homily.
T
TNT
Guest
GWS"Catholic"
It it were true, Missionaries of old & Martyrdom is the essence of blind stupidity.
How about if I decide to be a “Church-o-Christ” Member in good conscience? Celebrate with crackers & grape juice?
How about if I decide to be a “Church-o-Wicca” Member in good conscience?
How about if I decide to be a “SSPX” Member in good conscience?
How about I have Orange Juice with 10% Ethanol & you have 100% Orange Juice.
Will you swap drinks so’s to emphasize the Orange Juice part that unites us on our drink?
Pius XI, MORTALIUM ANIMOS
3. But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians.
4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.”[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.
5. Admonished, therefore, by the consciousness of Our Apostolic office that We should not permit the flock of the Lord to be cheated by dangerous fallacies, We invoke, Venerable Brethren, your zeal in avoiding this evil;
You can’t be serious.
It it were true, Missionaries of old & Martyrdom is the essence of blind stupidity.
How about if I decide to be a “Church-o-Christ” Member in good conscience? Celebrate with crackers & grape juice?
How about if I decide to be a “Church-o-Wicca” Member in good conscience?
How about if I decide to be a “SSPX” Member in good conscience?
How about I have Orange Juice with 10% Ethanol & you have 100% Orange Juice.
Will you swap drinks so’s to emphasize the Orange Juice part that unites us on our drink?
Pius XI, MORTALIUM ANIMOS
3. But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians.
4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.”[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.
5. Admonished, therefore, by the consciousness of Our Apostolic office that We should not permit the flock of the Lord to be cheated by dangerous fallacies, We invoke, Venerable Brethren, your zeal in avoiding this evil;
G
GWSCatholic
Guest
Interesting that this thread has evolved into Lutheran bashing. Luther’s original intent was not to split from the church, rather, he took great pains to stay within the Catholic Church initially, his intent being to point out the wrongs that the church was engaging in, particularly the sale of indulgences, in effect, “buying” one’s way into heaven. Unfortunately, his followers went to the extreme and made the break permanent.
If one is to be a true Christian, one must have respect for all faiths, and emphasize what unites us.
One clarification, the “state” church in China is not recognized by the Roman Church as being valid. The true church remains underground, unfortunately.
GWS Catholic
If one is to be a true Christian, one must have respect for all faiths, and emphasize what unites us.
One clarification, the “state” church in China is not recognized by the Roman Church as being valid. The true church remains underground, unfortunately.
GWS Catholic
T
TNT
Guest
Who’s Luther?
And what book or site do you suggest to get the real dope about him?
G
GWSCatholic
Guest
Martin Luther…former Catholic monk who protested against the abuses that the Catholic Church allowed…selling of indulgences, corruption in the papacy, etc. etc,
G
GWSCatholic
Guest
I can see that nothing will get accomplished here, since you seem to get your kicks out of bashing another Christian faith, simply because it doesn’t suit you. The Roman Catholic faith is far from perfect, given the fact that we have much shame in our history…the Crusades, the Inquisition, popes whose “god” was as much power and land that they could grab, etc. etc. Before we judge others, let us look in our own closet first and clean it up, shall we?
GWSCatholic
GWSCatholic
I
I_Believe
Guest
Wasn’t Luther an ordained priest ?
W
Walking_Home
Guest
newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm
III. LIBERAL OR LATITUDINARIAN INDIFFERENTISM
(a) Origin and Growth
The foregoing types of Indifferentism are conveniently called infidel, to distinguish them from a third, which, while acknowledging the unique Divine origin and character of Christianity, and its consequent immeasurable superiority over all rival religions, holds that what particular Christian Church or sect one belongs to is an indifferent matter; all forms of Christianity are on the same footing, all are equally pleasing to God and serviceable to man. On approaching this third error one may advantageously inquire into the genesis of Indifferentism in general. In doing so we shall find that liberal Indifferentism, as the third type is called, although it arises in belief, is closely akin to that of infidelity; and this community of origin will account for the tendency which is today working towards the union of both in a common mire of scepticism. Indifferentism springs from Rationalism.
G
GWSCatholic
Guest
Yes, he was.
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