St. Augustine and the quote: Jews "must be allowed to survive, but never to thrive"

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JPUSC said:
That’s the gist of what St. Augustine said: “Slay them not [the Jews]…scatter them abroad.”
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PRmerger said:
Where did he say this?
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JPUSC said:
See your other thread. I posted the entire writing of St. Augustine and the link from New Advent with the source citation included.
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The passage from St. Augustine, however, is not even anti-Judaism, but is a vehemently expressed desire that Jews who are opposed to Christianity would be converted.–http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davear...m-in-the-church-fathers-catholic-history.html
 
JPUSC said:
That’s a different quote. Go to your other thread and read the post with the long block of text. I highlighted the parts for you.
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Irrelevant.

The quote addresses St. Augustine’s quote here quite nicely as well.
 
PRmerger said:
Irrelevant.

The quote addresses St. Augustine’s quote here quite nicely as well.
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That’s not irrelevant. That quote about Psalm 59 is the one alluded to in the NPR program you heard…you know the one you were asking about. Except the quote you provided isn’t the exact words.
 
JPUSC said:
That’s not irrelevant. That quote about Psalm 59 is the one alluded to in the NPR program you heard…you know the one you were asking about. Except the quote you provided aren’t the exact words.
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sigh

Let’s just take this quote: “Slay them not [the Jews]…scatter them abroad.”

Are we agreed that this quote from St. Augustine, however, is not even anti-Judaism, but is a vehemently expressed desire that Jews who are opposed to Christianity would be converted?

Yes?
 
PRmerger said:
sigh

Let’s just take this quote: “Slay them not [the Jews]…scatter them abroad.”

Are we agreed that this quote from St. Augustine, however, is not even anti-Judaism, but is a vehemently expressed desire that Jews who are opposed to Christianity would be converted?

Yes?
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Doesn’t matter what he meant. All these things the Church Fathers said led to the persecution of the Jews and eventually the Holocaust.
 
JPUSC said:
Doesn’t matter what he meant. All these things the Church Fathers said led to the persecution of the Jews and eventually the Holocaust.
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I don’t doubt that there were many things that the early Church said that led to persecution of the Jews.

Would that the early Christians, as well as the modern day Christians, actually followed the kerygma and the teachings of the Church.

Then the Holocaust would never have happened.
 
PRmerger said:
Er, no.

The Catholic Church has never professed “every other religion to be a path to damnation”
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If the Catholic Church is the only path to salvation then every other religion must, of logical necessity, be a path to damnation.

If the Catholic Church is the only religion which glorifies God in a proper manner than every other religion must be improper in its glorification of God, or explicitly glorifying what is not God. Both are violations of the First Commandment. Since every violation of any commandment is offensive to God, and those of the First commandment the highest offense, it would follow that every other religion is a horrible insult to God. Horrible because it condemns them to an eternity in Hell, and insulting because it is highly offensive to Him.
 
NonTimendum said:
If the Catholic Church is the only religion which glorifies God in a proper manner than every other religion must be** improper** in its glorification of God,
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The correct word is “imperfect”. Not improper.
or explicitly glorifying what is not God.
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If a religion is explicitly glorifying what is not God then it is indeed improper.

So if there’s a religion that is explicitly glorifying, say, Baal, then the CC rejects this.
 
PRmerger said:
The correct word is “imperfect”. Not improper.
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God is perfect. God is good. Anything less than perfection would then be evil, no?
If a religion is explicitly glorifying what is not God then it is indeed improper.
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So if there’s a religion that is explicitly glorifying, say, Baal, then the CC rejects this.
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But I thought you said

“There are truths which ***every ***religion shares with Catholicism.” (emphasis mine)

So wouldn’t the Baal worshippers just be practicing their valid and saving (if imperfect) faith?
 
NonTimendum said:
God is perfect. God is good. Anything less than perfection would then be evil, no?
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You ought to be careful about what you say here, on a Catholic forum, NonT.

You are calling the Catholic Church evil here, so I’d be more judicious about your posts.
825 “The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect.” In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: “Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect.”
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PRmerger said:
You ought to be careful about what you say here, on a Catholic forum, NonT.

You are calling the Catholic Church evil here, so I’d be more judicious about your posts.
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The Church certainly has evil within it, hence the “imperfect” part. If the Church was all good, then it wouldn’t be imperfect, would it?
 
NonTimendum said:
But I thought you said

“There are truths which ***every ***religion shares with Catholicism.” (emphasis mine)

So wouldn’t the Baal worshippers just be practicing their valid and saving (if imperfect) faith?
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No one said that their faith is saving.

What was said is that every religion shares some truth with Catholicism.

So, let’s say there’s a religion that worships Baal…if this religion says that money should be given to the poor, as well as saying that Baal is God, then to the degree that it has proclaimed a truth (help the poor!) is the degree to which we say, “Yes!”
 
NonTimendum said:
The Church certainly has evil within it, hence the “imperfect” part. If the Church was all good, then it wouldn’t be imperfect, would it?
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So you’re saying the Church IS evil?

Be very, very careful, NonT.
 
PRmerger said:
No one said that their faith is saving.

What was said is that every religion shares some truth with Catholicism.

So, let’s say there’s a religion that worships Baal…if this religion says that money should be given to the poor, as well as saying that Baal is God, then to the degree that it has proclaimed a truth (help the poor!) is the degree to which we say, “Yes!”
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If their faith isn’t saving then it’s damning… which would make it pretty worthless as a faith, right?
So you’re saying the Church IS evil?
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Our first Pope betrayed Christ 3 times, our leading apologist was an enforcer for the Pharisees and stoned our first Deacon, one of our first Bishop betrayed our Lord, then hung himself, and is almost certainly in Hell, and every single one of our priests, bishops, popes, deacons and lay-members has been a sinner. I’d say there’s definitely some evil within the Church.
 
NonTimendum said:
God is perfect. God is good. Anything less than perfection would then be evil, no?
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And look at what else you’re calling evil, NonT.
1963 According to Christian tradition, the Law is holy, spiritual, and good, yet still imperfect.
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The Law.

:eek:

I don’t think you’ve really thought your position through clearly, NonT.

Read the Catechism, familiarize yourself with your faith.

(I suggest you do a search of the word “imperfect” in our Catechism and see all the things you’re calling EVIL.)

Calling what is imperfect “evil”…no. Just no.

 
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