St. Boniface Church In San Francisco Lets Homeless People Sleep In Pews

[dshix]

I can’t respond to any of the replies right now, but will tomorrow.

RoseMary, I’d suggest reading over your own posts and seeing where your logic contradicts itself, so you get a chance to fix them. I’ll address those tomorrow.

 

[BroomWagon]

http://www.stjosephscentre.co.nz/St Vincent de Paul.jpg

The great St. of Charity was St. Vincent de Paul, 1581-1660, a household name even today, I do think so much of the heritage of Charity stems from St. Vincent de Paul because Paris back in the day had a lot of poor, years after would be the days of Les Miserables and the French Revolution would come as well. Yet, St. Vincent was very reverent. I would wonder what a Vincentian point of view on this would be.

There are Catholic Charities out there, more to weary of what the government might do in this day.

We know by example examples of charity by Saints such as Louis de Montfort encountering a poor man on the road and giving him all of his good clothes we are told and de Montfort wore the clothes of the poor man.

I think the church is acting noble, one might wonder why this doesn’t happen even more. The Church already has many outreaches to the poor such as the society of St. Vincent de Paul.

http://files.coloribus.com/files/ad...st-vincent-de-paul-society-greg-600-48144.jpg

QUEENSLAND Catholic schools are stepping up their winter efforts for the poor by standing in solidarity with the homeless.

Primary and secondary school students from schools that include All Saints’ Parish Primary School, Albany Creek; St Eugene College, Burpengary; and Holy Cross School, Wooloowin, have slept “rough” to raise awareness of and funds for the homeless.

As part of their St Vincent de Paul Winter Appeal, 23 Mini Vinnies from Holy Cross School, Wooloowin, and Holy Rosary School, Windsor “slept out” on July 20 to gain a better understanding of being homeless.

Pastoral care worker Josephite Sister Anne Cannon said it was inspiring to join the children who had given up their usual Friday-night activities to take part.

“For some it meant going to footy and then coming back,” she said.

For others it meant going to swim training early on Saturday morning without a good night’s sleep.

“For all, it meant eating soup as a main meal, having Weet Bix or toast for breakfast and sleeping on a hard floor.”

It was the third consecutive year students at Xavier Catholic College, Hervey Bay, participated in the St Vincent de Paul School Sleep Out and, despite the chilly night, 20 students and five staff took part.

Xavier Catholic College teacher Roxanne Hawes said the group was joined by Hervey Bay St Vincent de Paul Society president Brian Gibbon and invited guests from the Xavier community who had worked with families, young people and individuals who had faced some sort of homelessness in their lives.

“The group shared soup, which was made and donated by the school’s ‘Magis Minis’ group (consisting of students in Years 4-7), whilst hearing about the plight of those in need in our local community,” she said.

Ms Hawes said several of Xavier’s senior students shared their recent experiences of a street retreat in Brisbane.

“(They also spoke about) the people, places and organisations they spent time with in May over a four-day period understanding poverty, its causes and what we can do as young people to help, listen and give dignity to those who experience it,” she said.

…

catholicleader.com.au/news.php/schools-news/students-sleep-out-to-help-the-homeless_81888

 

[Obispo]

I think you need to respect the fact that “the homeless” is a catch-all term, with the most socially problematic of them being different by region or city. In my area, the homeless who enter church during liturgy are very disrespectful and clownish. They parade around during the litugy, interrupt the homily, enter the sanctuary during the homily, pester random parishioners during Mass, and often aggressively panhandle after Mass, just outside.

The homeless also include very conventional and conventional-looking people one would never suspect of being homeless, necessarily (because, unlike the ones above, they do not act crazy), but in general the more urban the setting, the higher proportion of mentally unstable and aggressive there are, relative to the well-behaved among them. Maybe it has something to do with less funding, fewer resources relative to the needs of this population, or the size of that population in urban settings, I don’t know.

But to caricature them all as “ultra-courteous” does not necessarily apply outside of your own parish.

Not in my experience in a number of inner city parishes in California.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Not in my experience in a number of inner city parishes in California.

We have opposite experiences, and I travel very widely to parishes.

 

[dshix]

Ok, here we go. Starting from where I left off.

There are a great many “thoughts” that cross my mind each day which makes me truly question the authority I might conjure up in my own mind about my right to determine who should or should not attend a Mass.

I agree, no one should decide whether or not someone else should or should not attend a Mass, nor have I suggested that. These poor homeless people are not attending mass, they are using the Church as a sleeping place, and I don’t consider that worthy of Our Lord. By no means do I suggest we should bar homeless people from entering the Church for adoration, mass, etc. However, I do have reservations about them sleeping there.

Even based upon the “externals” or apparently obvious behaviours of some who attend Mass (which I categorically admit are founded upon a terribly unqualified assessment on my part) there come to mind numerous behaviours that could be perceived as more objectionable than someone quietly napping because of an authentic need for rest. I realize that pointing out other wrongs does not demonstrate rilght in this case, but if we are about the business of cleaning house of irreverent behaviours I am not clear we should begin with sleeping by the tired and homeless as the most pressing disrespectful action.

Again, I agree. Sleeping in the Church is not the most disrespectful thing they can do in the Church. But it is it a good start? If you are going to teach a person about God and the Church, do you do it by asking them to sleep there?

To be asleep i the presence of the Lord is not disrespectful. The holy Spirit works in the silence of our hearts and the Grace of God exists beyond what limitations we would place on Him.

added- now that I think about it St. Anthony’s Shrine in Boston often has homeless folks asleep in the lower church. I have been there countless times and have seen this.

I agree that it may be considered that sleeping before the Blessed Sacrament is not objectively disrespectful, but only at times. I believe letting homeless people sleep before Him is one of those times it is disrespectful, because they don’t necessarily go to sleep even acknowledging His Presence. They are essentially using the Church as a bedroom.

Well, IMO, Jesus would much rather we care for the health and safety of the lowliest among us than worry too much about what seems dignified. I am also quite sure, being as this has been going on for years now, that the Sacrament is well-protected and respected.

Making speculative statements about what Jesus would “much rather” have us do. When a person goes off doing that, they can end up anywhere. I speak out of consideration for the profound holiness of the sacrament, and the profound greatness of God.

And shelters close during the day. Shelters, at least all the ones I know of- I am a social worker- open in the early evening and send everyone out very early in the morning- usually between 6 and 8 a.m.

That does not address the problem of irreverence, which we are discussing.

They are supposed to be sleeping. It’s what they come for, what they need as much as food. I can’t imagine anything that honors Jesus more than following His teaching, showing His mercy, sheltering His children. No one is disturbing the Mass.

BTW, people can follow links I put in my first post ITT to donate.

I can. That’s speculative.

You are, (as have a lot of people on this thread) bringing things out of context. There is nothing wrong with “following His teaching, showing His mercy, and sheltering His children.”

There IS something wrong with letting His teaching replace HIM in level of importance!

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/wink.gif Well, I’ll jump in if there is any room left for another thought. I’ve read everyone’s comments so far and wonder how many are being a little too free and easy with the term “homeless”. I have observed that the people sleeping on park benches, doorways, abandoned shacks, etc. have severe problems with mental illness, drug and alcohol ruination and can be rather dangerous for “openers”. We will have to consider contagious illness, vermin and filth in general when inviting them to sleep in the pews. Unless nourishment, hygiene, toileting, medical help and behavior monitoring is also being provided, then I think its inflating a charitable deed way beyond the effort made to allow occupation of the church pews. Deliver the help with a “God Bless You and Keep You” might be more than enough for some to grasp - leave the “what happens next” to Our Lord - just keep helping and praying for them.

This is a good point. However, I will not accept it as a point on my side, because I am not debating about helping people but about the respect to the Sacrament.

 

[Lawrence178]

We should install sinks and toilets in the nave to help the homeless, too. Disagree? Well, using the reasoning I am gleaning from the rest of this thread, “Jesus wouldn’t mind.”

Just saying…

 

[dshix]

I’ll say this once more and leave the thread: the Bishop and the Pastor have for many years found this to be acceptable. **My opinion is that no one in this thread has a better understanding of theology or liturgy or spirituality or service to God than they do. ** I do not think for one moment and never did that this is in any way disrespectful to God. In fact, I think Jesus must be delighted that someone’s finally respecting His Word enough to actually do what He said.

To the bolded: Just because a person is in a high position of authority doesn’t mean they are infallible. I will make no remarks concerning the bishop and priest of this parish, because I don’t make remarks about people I don’t know and have not researched.

I do not think this is the wise way to help homeless, nor is it respectful to God.

To the underlined: You are again bringing things out of context. I am not debating about the help we give to people; I am debating about the respect we give to God.

These people have been invited by the parish priest through the Gubbio Project (I would assume with permission of the bishop) for the intention of sleep. God is present in the Blessed Sacrament in the same place where they have been invited to sleep.

Precisely. Intending to sleep. So, they are going to be before God, not to worship Him, not to thank Him, maybe not even to notice Him. They are there to sleep.

Proved my point.

I, too, read that the people were sleeping in the Church (with Christ present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity). I did not miss that in the article, the pictures, or the title of the thread. I did not read that they were offering Our Lord less dignity.

*Fictitious Headline:
Convict farts in King’s Face
*

Now, the headline didn’t say that the convict offered disrespect to the King in words. It just said he farted in the King’s face. Now, do you already know, or does someone have to tell you, that that is offering disrespect to the King?

It may not be the perfect analogy, but to say that just because an article doesn’t SAY that people are offering disrespect by their actions, doesn’t mean that they aren’t still doing it. We are dealing with God here, and we need to be careful that he gets the utmost respect.

I do not define that these homeless people are offering Our Lord less dignity than those who are attending Mass, even though they are sleeping while Mass is being offered or sleeping in the Church with Jesus in the tabernacle.

You do not define. Hmm. I can’t argue with that, because there is not way I can change your brain processes, but I can reiterate all the reasons why it is disrespectful. However, since I’ve already done so so many times, I think I’ll just let you go back and read them.

In my opionion, sleeping is not undignified. To discuss how I would respond to friends coming to visit me while I was asleep and how I would respond would involve who the friends were, why they came to visit at a time I was sleeping, why I was asleep, etc. For different situations, I would have different reactions.

Nifty. I’m not exactly sure if you answered my question or not, but seeing as that wasn’t the most important part of my argument I’ll let it pass.

It would be rude for me to head over to the church now for the purpose of sleeping.

It would be rude for me to plan not to participate in Mass following the proper posture and prayers of the Mass.

Agreed.

(This is provided I have nothing else to change why I am doing something different. As the mother of a child with special needs, my posture and spoken prayer often do not match those of the Mass. I do know when I enter the church, that I will not be able to participate as fully as I would like, but I know that I will do what I can to try to participate, to help my child, and to keep from distracting others as much as possible.)

Agreed.

This Gubbio Project is not about me or the average person inside the Church. It is specifically for the homeless to be offered a place to sleep…even to sleep before the Kind of Kings, the Lord of Lords.

I don’t see the difference. Are you suggesting that the homeless may show no respect to the Blessed Sacrament, whereas you do? Are they somehow immune from treating God the way He deserves?

It would be rude for me to nap at a gala dinner and a gala dinner is nothing compared to the Holy Table we have been invited for the Mass of Our Lord to celebrate at His Banquet Table and be Feed His Holy Body and Blood.

EXACTLY! It would be rude for you to sleep in the middle of friends and possible some important people; but it would be infinitely more rude to do so before God!

God deserves infinitely more respect than any person you ever have or ever will meet; therefore we should treat Him as such.

 

[cheezey]

We should install sinks and toilets in the nave to help the homeless, too. Disagree? Well, using the reasoning I am gleaning from the rest of this thread, “Jesus wouldn’t mind.”

Just saying…

Jesus probably doesn’t mind using that which is already there for the use of these unfortunate people.

 

[dshix]

Yes, that is very relevant. It is relevant to my thinking, maybe not to your thinking. That is the WHOLE POINT of allowing the homeless to come sleep during the day time. It may have nothing to do with why you are posting, but it has everything to do with why I am posting.

It is the very reason the homeless people are being invited to sleep in empty pews while the church is open during the day. It explains why I think God is not being disrespected and why I think that their sleeping before the Lord is not less dignified.

I don’t understand. So somehow the fact they are homeless means they don’t have to respect God, and that gives the owners of the Church the right to let them sleep inside it?

This idea you have that somehow homeless are immune to respecting God puzzles me.

The same way I do not think I am disrespecting God when I am not following proper posture during Mass when I’m helping my child. I would not be acting in a dignified manner if I did the same thing - without my child - just on my own. I would be rude to God and to others.

That is perfectly normal.

God deserves more respect than any of us can give Him.

For the person who has been without sleep for awhile, I don’t think God is going to ask them to have the same alertness as someone who gets a normal amount of sleep. I don’t see the sleeping homeless person as not being respectful. Because the person has been invited to sleep during the time the church is open, I do not think he is disrespecting God. You think that he is.

Agreed; no one has to be perfectly alert. As a matter of fact, I’m often quite tired when I go to the Church. But " not alert" doesn’t mean “sleeping.”

You bring up an interesting point. The fact that the person was invited to sleep in the Church DOES change his/her culpability. Now almost all the culpability is on the people who let the homeless people in. The disrespect is on them, no the homeless people themselves.

I will not accept your call that if I “can prove to (you) that there is nothing immature or rude about taking a nap at a formal dinner, (you’ll) accept there is nothing wrong with sleeping in front of the Master of the Universe.”

Why not?

Napping at a formal dinner in which a person is invited to eat and share in fellowship with others is not equivalent to a person sleeping in a church when the parish has invited a homeless person to sleep in the pew with the Master of the Universe present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, even sleeping during the Feast of the Lamb.

You do not have to accept “there is nothing wrong with sleeping in front of the Master of the Universe.”

Precisely. A person who is invited into the Church has a MUCH GREATER obligation to show respect than any person attending a formal dinner.

Do you disagree with that?

Homeless people often sleep during the day. Most likely, like an owl, they are awake during a lot of the night time sleeping hours when most of us are asleep safely in our homes.

Some will sleep better than others. Some will be in a safer homeless shelter than other shelters. Some will be spending the night hours in an alley, under a bridge, a homeless camp, or any place they can find.

During those “sleeping hours”, they may be concerned for their own safety, concerned that their belongings may be stolen, and experiencing the harshness of the elements. This is not a restful sleep. Their body is not ready for the next day.

You probably don’t have to just wonder about this…see if you can visit a homeless shelter. Maybe you can participate in a program designed to teach others about the life of a homeless person.

As I have said before, (quite a few times now) I am in full support of helping the homeless. What I am not in support of is decreasing the dignity of God’s house in order to give them someplace to sleep.

I am sure there SOMEWHERE else which is available for them. Actually, I’d also be willing to hedge a guess that this parish has a hall nearby which would do just fine to house sleepers.

---

Well, now that I’ve finished managing that VERY LARGE wall of text, let’s see if anyone actually retains it.

I’m probably going to kick myself if someone states that we need to help the homeless AGAIN, seeing as I’ve already addressed that what… 8 times?

 

[cheezey]

I am sure there [is] SOMEWHERE else which is available for them.

I spent 36 hours in three days this week trying to find shelter for myself. Full, full, full; EVERYWHERE full. I was sure there would be somewhere for me, too. Nothing…

Where else to find such nearness to God and His Son but in this manner?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Jesus was clear on helping the poor. He was also clear on the use of sacred space. He never suggested that the poor use the Temple as a shelter. I agree with dshix’s point on the invented theology of some on this thread, but that’s been happening regularly over the last couple of decades minimum.

That said, the entire approach to homelessness in this First World country is lame, unenlightened, and shameful. As is the use of non-sacred space. As I understand it (and having less space than us), Europeans often employ dual-use building policies when possible or practical, as long as that use does not compromise the purpose of the building. This generally means (unlike at St. Boniface) there will not be interface between the two purposes, but that the space will be used economically, efficiently. Thus, I witnessed this myself once here in my region when I attended a movie whose screen was upstairs. My husband and I were kind of near the front railing. When I looked below I was shocked to see children’s drawings on the wall. I thought wait, Am I in a movie theater? Yes I was: by night. By day, the space below was used as a school.

I’ve never understood public shelter policies of “kicking them out” at a particular early hour. After all, they might get off the street if they got an evening job, had someplace to sleep during the day, and were then able to save enough for private shelter. Ferrying oneself back and forth between a shelter and a church is also no solution. And may I add, I’m not particularly impressed with St. Boniface “generously” “allowing” them to sleep on hard wooden pews. Gee, how welcoming.

First off, all of the religious organizations in the City (and in any city!) need to lobby their municipal gov’t about a far more humane approach to homelessness, and i.m.o., a second nap in the pews doesn’t cut it. These organizations should put pressure on the City for different shelter policies, particularly when there are children involved, and secondarily these organizations should collaborate on providing alternatives outside of sacred space. I know of particular Catholic church properties which are lying dormant on church sites during the hours of 6 am to 1 pm. They do not house the blessed sacrament. They are also adjacent to restrooms. I’ll bet this is true of other religious structures as well.

I completely agree with St. Boniface’s policy of providing showers, etc. One of my local parishes has done this for years; it was fantastic. However, eventually there developed security problems, so that had to stop. This is a risk that has to be faced in dealing with anything like this.

 

[dshix]

I spent 36 hours in three days this week trying to find shelter for myself. Full, full, full; EVERYWHERE full. I was sure there would be somewhere for me, too. Nothing…

Where else to find such nearness to God and His Son but in this manner?

Thanks for addressing my smallest point and ignoring all of my big ones.

 

[cheezey]

Thanks for addressing my smallest point and ignoring all of my big ones.

You are welcome. Why does this need to be complicated? And thank you for your concern.

 

[RoseMary131]

dshix:

RoseMary, I’d suggest reading over your own posts and seeing where your logic contradicts itself, so you get a chance to fix them. I’ll address those tomorrow.

Ok, here we go. Starting from where I left off.

That does not address the problem of irreverence, which we are discussing.

This is a good point. However, I will not accept it as a point on my side, because I am not debating about helping people but about the respect to the Sacrament.

To dshix: I would like to make statements unrelated to St. Boniface Church In San Francisco Lets Homeless People Sleep In Pews.

I am interpreting what I read from you to be a “debate”. My interpretation implies that this thread is a form of a “game” for you. It appears to me that you have set up the “game”.

You have picked the “topic” for debate to be “Respect or Lack of Respect Deserve Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.” Under the topic of “Respect”, you have made a subtopic as to if “Sleep is or is not Dignified in the Presence of Our Lord”.

You have taken your place as a “player”. A player who gives his opponent suggestions so they can fix their mistakes before the next move is in play.

You have also taken your place as “moderator” to keep other people on “your topic”.

You have taken your place as the “judge” to decide “whose side gets a point”.

While you are debating respect due Our Lord, you show little respect to those who are homeless:

They aren’t owls, are they?

.

You make one remark claiming the possibility that the priest and bishop are ignorant for the true dignity of the Sacrament. Then you change your “rules”.

I will make no remarks concerning the bishop and priest of this parish, because I don’t make remarks about people I don’t know and have not researched.

Yet, this was your remark:

Why do you think the priest and bishop allow these people to sleep in the church with Our Lord present in the tabernacle and during Holy Mass?

I don’t know. Ignorance for the true dignity of the sacrament is my guess, but of course I do not live there so I cannot say.

The point of my post is to express to you what I see in your message and at the same time to express to you that I did not respond to any messages on this thread as a “game” or “debate” to “score points for my side”. I imagine there are others who are not responding in a “debate” or “game” format.

When you announce something is not relevant in your eyes and deserves to not be “discussed”, or off topic in your eyes and deserves not to be “discussed”, or use sarcasm, or announce what you think they know (“and you know it” type messages) — you are not practicing respect to the other person. The homeless and those writing on this thread are created in the image and likeness of God and we should treat each other with respect.

I come to Catholic Answers to read what others have respectfully written and to engage respectfully with others.

This message is simply to describe for you my thoughts on my interpretation of reading your many messages.

I notice you responded to my recent messages but have not read them, yet. My thoughts last night, as CatholicAnne mentioned, is “agree to disagree” on the topic of **St. Boniface In San Francisco Lets Homeless People Sleep In Pews. **

 

[cheezey]

To dshix:

This message is simply to describe for you my thoughts on my interpretation of reading your many messages.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Thank you, RoseMary

 

[Elizabeth502]

To dshix:

I am interpreting what I read from you to be a “debate”. My interpretation implies that this thread is a form of a “game” for you. It appears to me that you have set up the “game”.

You have taken your place as a “player”. A player who gives his opponent suggestions so they can fix their mistakes before the next move is in play.

You have also taken your place as “moderator” to keep other people on “your topic”.

You have taken your place as the “judge” to decide “whose side gets a point”.

While you are debating respect due Our Lord, you show little respect to those who are homeless:

You make one remark claiming the possibility that the priest and bishop are ignorant for the true dignity of the Sacrament. Then you change your “rules”.

I don’t see where he has done any of this. The poster is stating his opinion on the use of church space, and his concern for respect of that space.

 

[catholicanne]

I notice you responded to my recent messages but have not read them, yet. My thoughts last night, as CatholicAnne mentioned, is “agree to disagree” on the topic of **St. Boniface In San Francisco Lets Homeless People Sleep In Pews. **

How about this? If we do not respond, then there can be no debate.

 

[Tigg]

While superficially appearing to be a noble project, there is something quite disturbing about this. That sense of “take off your sandals, you are on holy ground” is missing and I suspect the Transcendent God - The Other, Different and Surpassing One, is being placed on a scale below man himself. I just have a problem with mixing the profane with the holy - The King and Real Presence.

 

[Tigg]

I just did a quick search on the Gubbio Project. Seems Martin Sheen, a Catholic and political activist who advances progressive politics is quite involved with this social justice group. That is not to say there is not some good being done, but here is a quote from their webpage:

“An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics.”

                 ~ Plutarch ~

This quote does nothing to assuage my unease.

 

[Tigg]

To dshix: I would like to make statements unrelated to St. Boniface Church In San Francisco Lets Homeless People Sleep In Pews.

I am interpreting what I read from you to be a “debate”. My interpretation implies that this thread is a form of a “game” for you. It appears to me that you have set up the “game”.

You have picked the “topic” for debate to be “Respect or Lack of Respect Deserve Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.” Under the topic of “Respect”, you have made a subtopic as to if “Sleep is or is not Dignified in the Presence of Our Lord”.

You have taken your place as a “player”. A player who gives his opponent suggestions so they can fix their mistakes before the next move is in play.

You have also taken your place as “moderator” to keep other people on “your topic”.

You have taken your place as the “judge” to decide “whose side gets a point”.

Wow! After reading each post, I find this to be a totally incorrect assessment of the comments! On a public board, we can each share our opinions and reasons for believing the way we do.

While you are debating respect due Our Lord, you show little respect to those who are homeless:

How can you possibly and correctly judge the intent of the poster’s heart?