St. Catharine of Siena: A Calvinist?

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I did, of course, answer, yet the accusation of alleged “hostility” keeps being absurdly brought up. My answer was an analogical argument: a comparison to the biblical language about “hardening of hearts,” in which we see that the Bible states that God did this, and elsewhere that persons hardened themselves in their free will.

That’s the key, in my opinion, to understanding both St. Catherine (in this instance) and Catholic theology in general regarding predestination.

I referred “Tolkien” to several of my papers on the topic on my “Salvation and Justification” web page.
 
Tolkien13 said:
That was just a list of assertions. The first one is down-right flippant.
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Aside from the fact that her statement isn’t even remotely like Calvinism, If Catherine of Sienna invented it, it would be named after her.

If you really want to understand what Calvinism is, go to Called to Communion website, or listen to their broadcasts on ETWN. The authors are all former Calvinists.

How’s that for a It is a straight answer?
 
In your original post, there are several ellipses (. . .) . Would you mind posting the entire “dialog” in question, with those parts put in?

I don’t think it’s very fair to accuse St Catherine of ‘heresy’ and make her out to be Calvinist (a theory that came about a few hundred years after her death) by quoting not her entire words, but only select bits and pieces. . .
 
Tantum_ergo said:
In your original post, there are several ellipses (. . .) . Would you mind posting the entire “dialog” in question, with those parts put in?

I don’t think it’s very fair to accuse St Catherine of ‘heresy’ and make her out to be Calvinist (a theory that came about a few hundred years after her death) by quoting not her entire words, but only select bits and pieces. . .
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Of course: the quotes can be found in the “Treatise on Discretion”, Chapters 37 & 43 (unabridged version)
 
Well, unfortunately in going online to various sources, including EWTN, I don’t FIND an ‘unabridged’ version with chapter 43.
 
Tolkien13 said:
Try Fish Eaters “Catholic Library”
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I have been there and every time I try to get from page 1 (the Regis College) the page resets back there in an endless loop. Since your computer is able to get there, could you go and cut and paste chapters 37 and 43 (you might have to make more than one post to keep the charas below 6000), because unfortunately, I’m not able to read and check for myself with all the resets. Internet in my area is practically Stone Age to begin with anyway.
 
Ignatius said:
Actually, no he wouldn’t. If you really want to understand what Calvinism is, go to Called to Communion website, or listen to their broadcasts on ETWN. The authors are all former Calvinists.
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I understand Calvinism pretty well. The link I provided has an actual passage from the “Institutes”, all you are doing is repeating the same post over and over again.
 
Tolkien13 said:
For someone to be canonised does not indicate that everything they wrote was wholly orthodox. Instead of appealing to “Welp, she’s a saint!”, perhaps you should attempt actual impartial, intelligent and theological dialogue.
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Most of the responses you received explained well how St. Catharine is not a Calvinist.

God allows us to be tempted so that we may resist and grow in spiritual strength. Satan and his comrades are on a leash.

Yes, there are times when people have deep-rooted evil practiced over a long period of time they may be tormented by the evil ones. Even that is not hopeless! While they are still in the flesh they can be saved.
 
Tolkien13 said:
I understand Calvinism pretty well. .
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Really, were you a life long Calvinist? Were you a Calvinist pastor for 30 or 40 years? Were you head of a Calvinist College, Seminary of Schoold of theology? Because the people at Called to Communion were Calvinist pastors and heads of Calvinist colleges, Seminaries and Schools of theology, so they advanced degrees and were life long Calvinists. You are simply dismissing it again and again. Why don’t you try to investigated what real Calvinists have to say. I think it might help you. Catherine of Sienna was not Calvinist as you keep trying to say. This is in error. I’ll keep pointing that out as long as I need to so the casual reader here does not get misled by these false claims. Again, for those readers who want to learn the facts,I refer the readers to calledtocommunion.com and the Called To Communion programs in EWTN.
 
Ignatius said:
Really, were you a life long Calvinist? Were you a Calvinist pastor for 30 or 40 years? Were you head of a Calvinist College, Seminary of Schoold of theology? Because the people at Called to Communion were Calvinist pastors and heads of Calvinist colleges, Seminaries and Schools of theology, so they advanced degrees and were life long Calvinists. You are simply dismissing it again and again. Why don’t you try to investigated what real Calvinists have to say. I think it might help you. Catherine of Sienna was not Calvinist as you keep trying to say. This is in error. I’ll keep pointing that out as long as I need to so the casual reader here does not get misled by these false claims. Again, for those readers who want to learn the facts,I refer the readers to calledtocommunion.com and the Called To Communion programs in EWTN.
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Firstly, I have provided links to CALVIN saying that the devils are God’s ministers and that Satan is the instrument of God’s judgement. I think Calvin himself should know a lot about his own thought 🙂

Secondly, I am not misleading anybody. I don’t believe St. Catherine was a proto-Calvinist. She later says God allows and permits Satan to do the things ascribes to him. If you would listen, you’d know that.
 
For the sake of clarity, here is the Calvin quote:
Tolkien13 said:
“From other passages, in which God is said to draw or bend Satan himself, and all the reprobate, to his will, a more difficult question arises. For the carnal mind can scarcely comprehend how, when acting by their means, he contracts no taint from their impurity, nay, how, in a common operation, he is exempt from all guilt, and can justly condemn his own ministers. Hence a distinction has been invented between doing and permitting because to many it seemed altogether inexplicable how Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases, and employs their iniquities to execute his Judgments. The modesty of those who are thus alarmed at the appearance of absurdity might perhaps be excused, did they not endeavour to vindicate the justice of God from every semblance of stigma by defending an untruth. It seems absurd that man should be*blinded by the will and command of God, and yet be forthwith punished for his blindness. Hence, recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God.”
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Tolkien13 said:
Again, you are correct. HOWEVER, this is not what St. Catherine appears to say. She says that God “appoints”, not “permits” Satan to molest us.
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Sounds to me like the word should be “allows”. Whoever translated it could have done better than “appoint”. It sort of means the same thing.

Peace,

Dorothy
 
Tolkien13 said:
Ignatius;12736650:
Tolkien13;12736573:
I understand Calvinism pretty well. .
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Really, were you a life long Calvinist? Were you a Calvinist pastor for 30 or 40 years? Were you head of a Calvinist College, Seminary of Schoold of theology? Because the people at Called to Communion were Calvinist pastors and heads of Calvinist colleges, Seminaries and Schools of theology, so they advanced degrees and were life long Calvinists. You are simply dismissing it again and again. Why don’t you try to investigated what real Calvinists have to say. I think it might help you. Catherine of Sienna was not Calvinist as you keep trying to say. This is in error. I’ll keep pointing that out as long as I need to so the casual reader here does not get misled by these false claims. Again, for those readers who want to learn the facts,I refer the readers to calledtocommunion.com and the Called To Communion programs in EWTN.

Firstly, I have provided links
And so have I
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Secondly, I am not misleading anybody.
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I beg to differ
If you would listen, you’d know that.
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And if you would listen to the podcasts at Called to Communion, you would find our differently.
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