St. Fransisco Franco?

[Ridgerunner]

Being quite familiar with Spain and with Spaniards I disagree. I can assure you the reason why the catholic church lost most of its followers was because with one hand Franco was claiming himself.as a.practicing catholic who is working in the name of the church and on the other hand he is ordering murder, rapes, being a tyrant and breaking every rule of the church.

I have to wonder about this. Franco surely isn’t responsible for the abandonment of religion in France, England, Norway, which is not greatly different from that in Spain.

The left has always been better at propagating its viewpoint than anyone else, from the idealization of Stalin by the majority of the media at a point in time to Michael Moore’s bogus representation of the Cuban medical system.

And lots of people believe it. I am sure if one took a poll, one would find that most Americans are only dimly aware of the Spanish Civil War if at all. Of the possibly 10% who know anything about it, probably 90% believe the romance that has been perpetuated about the republicans ever since. “The Pride of Miss Jean Brodie” on a colossal scale.

But I’ll bet as well that if one polled Americans on whether or not Pope Pius XII was in league with the Nazis, the majority would say he was; not because he was, but because so many who hate the Church say he was.

Even the “experts” don’t agree on a lot about the Spanish Civil War and its aftermath. Most “experts” seem to put the casualties on both sides at about even numbers. Some report massively greater civilian executions by the republicans than by the Franco people. Some report the reverse.

Yes, there seems to be little doubt the Francoists “adopted out” children of communists. But on the other hand, Solzhenitsyn reported meeting some of the then-grown Spanish children that were taken to the Soviet Union by the communists by the thousands and trained for awhile to be subversives, then largely abandoned, arrested or simply executed when their utility did not seem sufficiently great.

Nor is there any doubt the republicans turned their guns on each other; largely the anarchists against the hard-core, Moscow-oriented Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks won in that contest, and there’s no real doubt about that either.

But as to Franco ever being declared a saint, I would say there is not the least possibility of it. The Church is not given to canonizing highly controversial people, particularly those for whom there is some legitimacy to the controversy.

 

[triumphguy]

Then your pals the Communists could have murdered every priest, bishop and religious in Spain? After raping and murdering all the sisters? Much like the vaunted Red Army did in Eastern Europe (though they got every girl age 9 and above… I don’t think the Spanish Communists were quite as dedicated to Satan as the Russian ones).

And in Ireland weekly Mass attendance is only 30%. That’s abysmal.

My “pals” (as you call them - despite the fact that I have repeatedly said their actions were horrendous - but don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story) the communists would have shot me for being too Catholic.

Your pals the Francoists would have shot me for belonging to a teacher’s union and for opposing Franco.

Spain is so black and white.

It’s time to be honest about the past so it can be put to rest.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/8496318/Spain-publishes-map-with-over-2000-Franco-era-mass-graves.html

Spain publishes map with over 2,000 Franco-era mass graves
The Spanish government published on Thursday for the first time a map with the location of over 2,000 mass graves of victims of the country’s 1936-39 Civil War and the repression that followed during General Francisco Franco’s dictatorship…

The aim is to “contribute to healing … and eliminate any division between citizens,” the government said in a statement.

British historian Paul Preston estimates 200,000 Spaniards were killed away from the front line in the war, which pitted Franco’s right-wing forces against an elected left-wing government, as well as some 300,000 dead in battle.

Thousands more were killed in Franco’s ensuing decades-long dictatorship, according the latest book on the war and its aftermath by the veteran professor of contemporary Spanish studies at the London School of Economics.

While Franco’s regime honoured its own dead, it left its opponents buried in unmarked graves scattered across the country.

 

[Fairwinds]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Memory_Law

Spain is still coming to grips with franco. the above is a law passed by their parliament acknowledging franco’s tyranny and murderous ways and condemning him. no one here is defending the communists, the franco lovers only argument is that the Republicans were as bad, a bogus, immoral contention. franco killed in the service of the republican government, then turned and killed more, and afterwards, when he was dictator, killed again. they say hitler loved his dogs…

 

[triumphguy]

Link to the website publishing the mass graves:

memoriahistorica.gob.es/index.htm

 

[marymary1975]

I have to wonder about this. Franco surely isn’t responsible for the abandonment of religion in France, England, Norway, which is not greatly different from that in Spain.

The left has always been better at propagating its viewpoint than anyone else, from the idealization of Stalin by the majority of the media at a point in time to Michael Moore’s bogus representation of the Cuban medical system.

And lots of people believe it. I am sure if one took a poll, one would find that most Americans are only dimly aware of the Spanish Civil War if at all. Of the possibly 10% who know anything about it, probably 90% believe the romance that has been perpetuated about the republicans ever since. “The Pride of Miss Jean Brodie” on a colossal scale.

But I’ll bet as well that if one polled Americans on whether or not Pope Pius XII was in league with the Nazis, the majority would say he was; not because he was, but because so many who hate the Church say he was.

/QUOTE]

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Spain’s situation is totally and completely different to the rest of Europe and Spaniards are very different o the rest of Europeans. You are attributing it to communist propaganda but here we are talking about people who grew up with Franco, lived under Franco’s rule and saw things with theory own eyes. Remember most people who lived under Franco’s rule are alive, what propaganda are you going to give them if they lived it? Do you think that survivors from Austwich are going to believe propaganda that says that nobody got killed in it? You can us propaganda to convince people who weren’t there but that doesn’t work when we are talking about the ones who lived it.

Your example about the poll of pope Pius is a bad example because most Americans weren’t there, didn’t live there and can be influenced because they didn’t see it. What about a poll between the cardinals that were together with Pope Pius, do you think that poll is going to show the same result? Obviously not because the people you are polling were there and knew what happened. Two completely different scenarios.

 

[Fairwinds]

…
But I’ll bet as well that if one polled Americans on whether or not Pope Pius XII was in league with the Nazis, the majority would say he was; not because he was, but because so many who hate the Church say he was…

well educated Americans might question the concordat Pope Pius XII negotiated while he was Sec. State, or the German Centre (Catholic) Party’s politically misguided efforts to form a coalition government, and later support of the Enabling Act as matter of self preservation, but no one seriously believes the RCC was in league with hitler. badly outmaneuvered, yes; bad choices, sure, but not supporting him.

F/

 

[devoutchristian]

the thread topic is whether franco should be declared a saint, not the current Spanish government.

You cited them as an authority on the morality of Franco’s regime, so I pointed out that they have no idea how to morally run a government.

Truman and Churchill saved the world.

Except for the parts that became Communist.

Franco

Saved Spain from the Communists.

I’d be careful about how you answer responses that are intended to divert attention from the claim that franco should be made a saint.

what the OP is doing is making a fallacious argument called* tu quoque*, or, “you’re just as bad”. either that or the OP admits that they’re all war criminals. its hard to say exactly what, since the argument is so twisted.

while the attempt to smear the Allies to vindicate the thug franco is factually wrong, the argument itself is misleading, not only because neither Truman or Churchill is criticizing franco, but also because no one is advocating sainthood for either.

F/

I’m not the OP and I explicitly said that Franco should not be canonized.

how many Catholic priests did the man have to shoot before he no longer gets a pass?

One. Just find one whose death was ordered by Franco.

Then your pals the Communists could have murdered every priest, bishop and religious in Spain? After raping and murdering all the sisters? Much like the vaunted Red Army did in Eastern Europe (though they got every girl age 9 and above… I don’t think the Spanish Communists were quite as dedicated to Satan as the Russian ones).

And in Ireland weekly Mass attendance is only 30%. That’s abysmal.

I find it interesting that people will blame Franco for the low mass attendance rates in Spain, while ignoring the fact that Spain has higher rates than most European countries. Maybe Franco did have lasting positive influence in Spain.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ridgerunner;10683933:

I have to wonder about this. Franco surely isn’t responsible for the abandonment of religion in France, England, Norway, which is not greatly different from that in Spain.

The left has always been better at propagating its viewpoint than anyone else, from the idealization of Stalin by the majority of the media at a point in time to Michael Moore’s bogus representation of the Cuban medical system.

And lots of people believe it. I am sure if one took a poll, one would find that most Americans are only dimly aware of the Spanish Civil War if at all. Of the possibly 10% who know anything about it, probably 90% believe the romance that has been perpetuated about the republicans ever since. “The Pride of Miss Jean Brodie” on a colossal scale.

But I’ll bet as well that if one polled Americans on whether or not Pope Pius XII was in league with the Nazis, the majority would say he was; not because he was, but because so many who hate the Church say he was.

/QUOTE]

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Spain’s situation is totally and completely different to the rest of Europe and Spaniards are very different o the rest of Europeans. You are attributing it to communist propaganda but here we are talking about people who grew up with Franco, lived under Franco’s rule and saw things with theory own eyes. Remember most people who lived under Franco’s rule are alive, what propaganda are you going to give them if they lived it? Do you think that survivors from Austwich are going to believe propaganda that says that nobody got killed in it? You can us propaganda to convince people who weren’t there but that doesn’t work when we are talking about the ones who lived it.

Your example about the poll of pope Pius is a bad example because most Americans weren’t there, didn’t live there and can be influenced because they didn’t see it. What about a poll between the cardinals that were together with Pope Pius, do you think that poll is going to show the same result? Obviously not because the people you are polling were there and knew what happened. Two completely different scenarios.

I’m not attributing the romanticizing of the republican cause to communists only. It’s the darling of the left of all shades.

But when citing the recollections of “people who were there” for poor religious observance, one has to realize that lots of them supported Franco and/or opposed the communists. Possibly the majority, but certainly a very large number. Do they go to church any more than those who are descended from the communists or from the anarchists the communists killed off? Manifestly, they don’t very significantly, or the attendance numbers would be higher than they are.

Candor would require of us that we look at the pervasively miserable church attendance in Europe as a separate phenomenon, unrelated to Franco. Some, for example, attribute poor Irish attendance to the priest scandals. Some to other things. Scandinavian observance is almost nonexistent. Why? French attendance is worse than that of Spain. Why?

As bad as attendance is in Spain, it’s actually one of the better ones as developed countries go. nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-church-attendance

Something else is going on, and there are lots of theories for it. But it certainly isn’t peculiar to Spain.

Nobody seems to really have a handle on any of that when it comes to northern Europe. So why should we assume that in Spain it’s all because of Franco?

 

[marymary1975]

I stand by my statements, by my approval of the official acts of General Franco, by the ideas of the FET y de las JONS, and by my utter rejection of Communist propaganda.

I know and regret that the Spaniards, like the French and the Irish and many others, have largely rejected Jesus Christ and given themselves over to the devil instead. That is very regrettable. The whole Church bears the burden for not praying, fasting, working and fighting hard enough for Jesus Christ.

If you read my post again you are going to notice that I said that Franco actually did good thongs for Spain, yes his official acts and his policies were good and objectively Spain did better under him than now but this threat is not about his politics, is about sainthood, about how good he lived his life under the light of sainthood and looking through that glass, no Franco personally ever followed the teachings of the church. Franco’s end was good but the means he used to achieved all those good official policies were plain wrong and against the church’s teachings.

Also, Spaniards haven’t rejected Jesus Christ, Spaniards reject the institution of the Catholic church. Spain’s population still identifies with the basic beliefs of the Catholic church at a 90%, what they reject is the church because they say the church supported Franco…now that is not something I agree but that is the idea that Spaniards have.

 

[Fairwinds]

…yes his official acts and his policies were good and objectively Spain did better under him than now but this threat is not about his politics,…

the Spaniards franco murdered, kidnapped, jailed and raped didn’t do better under him. do they count?

the Spanish legislature passed a law and condemned franco. condemned. they’re still finding mass graves of people he murdered. why do you or anyone else excuse this monster?

F/

 

[Ridgerunner]

well educated Americans might question the concordat Pope Pius XII negotiated while he was Sec. State, or the German Centre (Catholic) Party’s politically misguided efforts to form a coalition government, and later support of the Enabling Act as matter of self preservation, but no one seriously believes the RCC was in league with hitler. badly outmaneuvered, yes; bad choices, sure, but not supporting him.

F/

I think among the small minority of Americans who actually know who Pope Pius XII was and when he reigned as Pope, if one asked whether he was in league with the Nazis, most would reply affirmatively. I’m not talking about people who really know the facts, but the ones (the majority) who have only heard some popular media assertions.

Maybe a bit off topic, but I found this interesting:

"Switzerland released a study in 2000 which concluded that the religious practice of the father of the family determines the future attendance or absence from church by the children. If both father and mother attend regularly, 33 percent of their children will end up as regular churchgoers, and 41 percent will end up attending irregularly. A quarter of their children will end up not practicing at all. If the father is irregular and mother regular, 3 percent of the children will subsequently become regulars themselves, while a further 59 percent will become irregulars. Thirty-eight percent will not attend at all. If the father is non-practicing and mother regular, 2 percent of children will become regular worshippers, and 37 percent will attend irregularly. About 60 percent of their children will not attend at all.

In short, if a father does not go to church, no matter how faithful his wife’s devotions, only one child in 50 will become a regular worshipper. If a father does go regularly, regardless of the practice of the mother, between two-thirds and three-quarters of their children will become churchgoers (regular and irregular). If a father goes but irregularly to church, regardless of his wife’s devotion, between half and two-thirds of their offspring will attend church regularly or occasionally.

A non-practicing mother with a regular father will see a minimum of two-thirds of her children ending up at church. In contrast, a non-practicing father with a regular mother will see two-thirds of his children not attending church. If his wife is similarly irregular that figure rises to 80 percent.[28][29]"

That really is amazing. One might have suspected it, but to see it verified this dramatically is really interesting. A sobering message to Catholic fathers who, after all, have a sacred moral duty to promote the religion of their children. It’s also at least somewhat instructive when it comes to the question whether a Catholic ought to marry outside the Church, particularly a Catholic woman.

 

[Ridgerunner]

the Spaniards franco murdered, kidnapped, jailed and raped didn’t do better under him. do they count?

the Spanish legislature passed a law and condemned franco. condemned. they’re still finding mass graves of people he murdered. why do you or anyone else excuse this monster?

F/

The Spanish legislature also approved same-sex marriage and abortion. Doesn’t make them right. Probably they have, by now, caused more deaths of more innocents than Franco ever did.

And under the ultra left-wing Zapatero government, (Spanish Socialist Workers’ Party) any kind of claim, whether of mass graves or anything else, should be viewed with skepticism.

 

[marymary1975]

the Spaniards franco murdered, kidnapped, jailed and raped didn’t do better under him. do they count?

the Spanish legislature passed a law and condemned franco. condemned. they’re still finding mass graves of people he murdered. why do you or anyone else excuse this monster?

F/

I am not speaking about his acts against human rights, I am.speaking about strict politics: he created the labor charter, he gave workers rights, between 51 and 56 Spain had a subtantial economic growth, during 58 - 60 he brought foreign corporations, made tourism flourish, etc. Indeed he was a tyran but just like Pinochet, did awful things against people but he had very good policies. Chile today owes having the most stable economy of Latin America to Pinochet, does.that mean that he didn’t kill anybody? No. Same thing with Franco.

 

[Fairwinds]

The Spanish legislature also approved same-sex marriage and abortion. Doesn’t make them right. Probably they have, by now, caused more deaths of more innocents than Franco ever did.

And under the ultra left-wing Zapatero government, (Spanish Socialist Workers’ Party) any kind of claim, whether of mass graves or anything else, should be viewed with skepticism.

same sex marriage = executing POWs and slave labor? is that the excuse goes?

make him your saint.

I’m embarrassed to be Roman Catholic on threads like this.

 

[Fairwinds]

I’m embarrassed to be Roman Catholic.

 

[andrewstx]

If you read my post again you are going to notice that I said that Franco actually did good thongs for Spain, yes his official acts and his policies were good and objectively Spain did better under him than now but this threat is not about his politics, is about sainthood, about how good he lived his life under the light of sainthood and looking through that glass, no Franco personally ever followed the teachings of the church. Franco’s end was good but the means he used to achieved all those good official policies were plain wrong and against the church’s teachings.

Also, Spaniards haven’t rejected Jesus Christ, Spaniards reject the institution of the Catholic church. Spain’s population still identifies with the basic beliefs of the Catholic church at a 90%, what they reject is the church because they say the church supported Franco…now that is not something I agree but that is the idea that Spaniards have.

I think Franco would have been more of a boxers man than a thong wearer.

Just kidding and sorry I couldn’t resist.

 

[DaveBj]

This thread is the best example of a tempest in a teapot that I have seen for a long time. Francisco Franco is NOT in the queue to be canonized, nor will he ever be. So why are we having all this sturm und drang?

 

[Ridgerunner]

same sex marriage = executing POWs and slave labor? is that the excuse goes?

make him your saint.

I’m embarrassed to be Roman Catholic on threads like this.

Embarrassed?

Let’s not let our righteous indignation carry us away. How many innocent unborn children have been executed since Zapatero and his socialist party embraced abortion?

I never said profaning marriage as the socialists have done resulted in any deaths. You know that.

And as you also know, I never proposed making him a saint. As you know, I said there was no possibility of it happening.

One would think one ought to be more embarrassed at being a serial killer of straw men than of being Catholic.

 

[triumphguy]

so general consensus: Franco == a saint

 

[tominrichmond]

I’m not too impressed that liberal, secular, leftist modern Spain wants to slander Franco and the Catholics who saved Spain from murderous Communism. I would be extremely sceptical about any claims being made by the current Socialist mob in control in Spain. After all, they’ve clearly shown their allegiance, by adopting homosexual marriage, abortion, divorce… hardly objective judges of Franco, whom they despise as their great arch-enemy, the man who kept them at bay for 30 years.

As for proclamation as a Saint, I don’t know about his personal sanctity, but judging by the efforts to canonize JPII and Paul VI, disastrous performance in public office is not a bar to sanctity.