St. Fransisco Franco?

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triumphguy said:
1,. CATHOLIC governments typically don’t rape, abduct children, execute dissenters and bury people in unmarked mass graves.
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Who did the government order raped?
triumphguy said:
  1. Not all people with SSA are “sodomites” and many are faithful and chaste Catholics. Many married men are sodomites. I’m not sure which group you are referencing so nastily.🤷
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I was referring to the practicing cohabiting homosexuals who are allowed to adopt children in modern Spain.
triumphguy said:
  1. Abortion is endemic to all countries - blaming any group is not going to get to the heart of that problem.
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My point was that Spain was much better under Franco.
 
Fairwinds said:
well, it demonstrates the moral truth learned from franco’s regime -]that the ends justify the means/-] and, ah… hmmm.
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No one is claiming that the ends justify the means. That is a strawman.
 
Fairwinds said:
how about this: its ok to beat children and shoot POWs as long as we do it in the right cause?

any better?
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No one is arguing that it is acceptable to beat children (except you and triumph in your strawmans).
 
Fairwinds said:
your* tu quoque* defense of franco speaks for itself.
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Another straw man bites the dust.

No, in order to know what the overall effect of Franco’s victory and rule really were, one cannot fail to consider what he and his partisans were fighting against and what the consequences of their failure would likely have been.

There is no question that the Francoists were fighting a group more ruthless than themselves. There is no question that after the complete Bolshevik victory over the anarchist and Trotskyite factions within the republican movement, Spain was headed to becoming a full-blown Stalinist state. As such, the lives of millions were at stake. Only a person sympathetic to leftism or ignorant of history could seriously question that.

The number of persons killed by either side is not certain, and will never be certain. Historians do not even agree on the number of the dead who were combatants versus non-combatants. Nor is it clear what role Franco himself played in every part of it. It may be noted in passing that while Franco partisans did kill 16 priest/partisans (versus the 4,000 killed by the Communists) Franco himself put a stop to it. So is it correct, as the left is fond of doing, to attribute those deaths to Franco himself? Possibly if one was a Francoist (or even a Trotskyite) whose relative was skinned alive like Andres Nin, one would be vengeful on an individual basis. As was true after the American Civil War, and as is true in Iraq today, a lot of private and partisan scores get settled during and after internecine struggles.

And frankly, our own society takes away a lot of children from unfit parents every year. Would you consider the like of Dolores Iburruri a fit person to raise and influence children; she who presided over the murder of her own partisans? Until some non-idological person really studies those foster placements in Spain, we cannot be sure those adoptions were appropriate or not.

But none of that is to say that Franco ought to be canonized, or that the Church is considering his canonization or ever will. As i said at the outset, I don’t see that as possible.

But for sure, popular culture does romanticize the communist side of the Spanish Civil War, which, of course, requires the demonization of Franco. Likely 100 years will need to pass before his acts can be judged impartially.
 
Ridgerunner said:
…No, in order to know what the overall effect of Franco’s victory and rule really were, one cannot fail to consider what he and his partisans were fighting against and what the consequences of their failure would likely have been.

There is no question that the Francoists were fighting a group more ruthless than themselves. There is no question that after the complete Bolshevik victory over the anarchist and Trotskyite factions within the republican movement, Spain was headed to becoming a full-blown Stalinist state. As such, the lives of millions were at stake. Only a person sympathetic to leftism or ignorant of history could seriously question that.
…
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devoutchristian: I was right. we did learn the ends justify the means.
Ridgerunner: sorry, I ID’d the wrong fallacy.
 
Fairwinds said:
the Spanish legislature passed a law and condemned franco. condemned. they’re still finding mass graves of people he murdered. why do you or anyone else excuse this monster?
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They’re still finding mass graves? Do you have sources for this? As I’ve read, the government tried years ago to throw a lot of money toward finding these supposed graves. Makes me wonder why it is so important to them? If I had to speculate, I would hazard a guess that it is because there is currently a lot of unrest in Spain over the economic woes, and more citizens are beginning in hindsight to reconsider some of the many positive aspects of Franco’s rule (Spaniards actually collected pretty good pensions under Franco, for one, and he kept the powers of the bankers in check). The current government therefore, is trying desperately to separate any positive feelings from their citizens and the Francoist regime because it doesn’t want its citizens getting any funny ideas.

Fairwinds, this thread seems to be greatly upsetting you. If a political discussion is enough to make you ashamed to be Catholic, it might be in your best interests to remove your subscription to this thread so as not to bring on unnecessary distress.🤷
tominrichmond said:
I would be extremely sceptical about any claims being made by the current Socialist mob in control in Spain. After all, they’ve clearly shown their allegiance, by adopting homosexual marriage, abortion, divorce… hardly objective judges of Franco, whom they despise as their great arch-enemy, the man who kept them at bay for 30 years.
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Not too relevant to the topic, but since we got on the subject of immorality I’ll add that it was only a few years after his death that the Spanish government succumbed to the pressure to allow women to go topless on the beaches. This was prohibited by Franco.
 
lerapt78 said:
Fairwinds, this thread seems to be greatly upsetting you. If a political discussion is enough to make you ashamed to be Catholic, it might be in your best interests to remove your subscription to this thread so as not to bring on unnecessary distress.
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This seems like good advice.
 
lerapt78 said:
Fairwinds, this thread seems to be greatly upsetting you. If a political discussion is enough to make you ashamed to be Catholic, it might be in your best interests to remove your subscription to this thread so as not to bring on unnecessary distress.🤷.
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that’s mighty considerate of you to suggest that, including the shrug at the end. you don’t see that brotherly concern nearly as often as we should.
 
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