St. John of the Cross and Emptying the Mind

[hazcompat]

Now understand, you who would live in the spirit, for I am speaking to no one else. The union with God which a spiritual man feels, when the union is revealed to the spirit as being abysmal—that is, measureless depth, measureless height, measureless length and measureless breadth—in this manifestation the spirit perceives that through love it has plunged itself into the depth and has ascended into the height and escaped into the length; and it feels itself to be wandering in the breadth, and to dwell in a knowledge which is ignorance. And through this intimate feeling of union, it feels itself to be melting into the Unity; and, through dying to all things, into the life of God. And there it feels itself to be one life with God. And this is the foundation, and the first point, of the God-seeing life.
And from this there arises the second point, which is an exercise above reason and without condition: for the Divine Unity, of which every God-seeing spirit has entered into possession in love, eternally draws and invites the Divine Persons and all loving spirits into its self. And this inward drawing is felt by each lover, more or less, according to the measure of his love and the manner of his exercise. And whosoever yields himself to this indrawing, and keeps himself therein, cannot fall into mortal sin. But the God-seeing man who has forsaken self and all things, and does not feel himself drawn away because he no longer possesses anything as his own, but stands empty of all, he can always enter, naked and unencumbered with images, into the inmost part of his spirit. There he finds revealed an Eternal Light, and in this light, he feels the eternal demand of the Divine Unity; and he feels himself to be an eternal fire of love, which craves above all else to be one with God.
The more he yields to this indrawing or demand, the more he feels it. And the more he feels it, the more he craves to be one with God; for it urges him to pay the debt which is demanded of him by God. This eternal demand of the Divine Unity kindles within the spirit an eternal fire of love; and though the spirit incessantly pays the debt, an eternal burning continues within it. For, in the transformation within the Unity, all spirits fail in their own activity, and feel nothing else but a burning up of themselves in the simple Unity of God. This simple Unity of God none can feel or possess save he who maintains himself in the immeasurable radiance, and in the love which is above reason and wayless. In this transcendent state the spirit feels in itself the eternal fire of love; and in this fire of love it finds neither beginning nor end, and it feels itself one with this fire of love.
The spirit for ever continues to burn in itself, for its love is eternal; and it feels itself ever more and more to be burnt up in love, for it is drawn and transformed into the Unity of God, where the spirit burns in love. If it observes itself, it finds a distinction and an otherness between itself and God; but where it is burnt up it is undifferentiated and without distinction, and therefore it feels nothing but unity; for the flame of the Love of God consumes and devours all that it can enfold in its Self.
And thus you may see that the indrawing Unity of God is nought else than the fathomless Love, which lovingly draws inward, in eternal fruition, the Father and the Son and all that lives in Them. And in this Love we shall burn and be burnt up without end, throughout eternity; for herein lies the blessedness of all spirits. And therefore we must all found our lives upon a fathomless abyss; that we may eternally plunge into Love, and sink down in the fathomless Depth.
And with that same Love, we shall ascend, and transcend ourselves, in the incomprehensible Height. And in that Love which is wayless, we shall wander and stray, and it shall lead us and lose us in the immeasurable Breadth of the Love of God. And herein we shall flee forth and flee out of ourselves, into the unknown raptures of the Goodness and Riches of God. And therein we shall melt and be melted away, and shall eternally wander and sojourn within the Glory of God. Behold! by each of these images, I show forth to God-seeing men their being and their exercise, but none else can understand them. For the contemplative life cannot be taught. But where the Eternal Truth reveals Itself within the spirit all that is needful is taught and learnt.

Blessed John Ruysbroeck
The Sparkling Stone

21On Flemish influences on Spanish mysticism, see P. Groult: Les Mystiques des Pays-Bas et la littŽrature espagnole du seizime sicle, Louvain, 1927 , and Joaqu’n Sanchis Alventosa, O.F.M.: La Escuela m’stica alemana y sus relaciones con nuestros m’sticos del Siglo de Oro, Madrid, 1946].

Peace

 

[simple_soul]

Apologies in advance … it’s soap box time. The honest answer … the people who say such things don’t know what they’re talking about.

People who know about contemplation and have experienced it never say such things. From my experience on these forums - 10+ years on strictly contemplative related threads - the only people who say such things are the nay-sayers who want to tie millstones around the necks of beautiful souls who have learned to soar to the Lord in contemplative love. It is usually a charge leveled against contemplatives to get them to stop praying as they are being led by the Holy Spirit … or worse brand them as heretics. At times it gets so bad around these forums that it simply isn’t worth coming around. It is very, very frustrating to be told by those with no experience in such matters that you are doing something you simply are not doing. But such is the case.

But this is a dilemma and spiritual tension that is as old as the hills. It happened in St. Teresa and John’s day … why would we think it wouldn’t happen now?

But I don’t want to say more because I don’t want to derail this very wonderful thread Michael has started. I thank you Michael for opening the door for so many people to speak of the wonderful ways of prayer by which they are being led.

May the Holy Spirit lead us all … now and always!

Dave

Not really your fault about the thread being derailed. I seem to have an uncanny nack for it without even trying.
I apologize Michael Mayo if I was out of line with my questions.

For the record I really do appriciated the delicate balance that must be kept that you and Sirach have pointed out. A very delicate balance and it helps me understand these seemingly like “cycles” I seem to go through and will just go wih them a little more reassured in the future that this is how God needs me to pray in the future. Thank you so much for that. I really do feel like my eyes have been opened or something… Well maybe more like a weight has been lifted off of me…will have to remember to reasure myself with what you have both said the next time I start criticizing or questioning myself and how I beleive God is leading me to pray.

Just edited to add a great big AMEN to your prayer!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

. Why do so many people believe one can force oneself to not think. Is that something anyone can really do? Can I really force myself to not think about things any more? I understand that some people believe others do this and strive to do this but is that really what they are doing?

I don’ think of it as force. Like when you are silent, are you forcing yourself to not talk? No. You are just resting that ability. A step deeper is the inner monologue we all do. When we pause for a moment to look carefully at something or listen carefully we quite naturally quiet even that inner monologue voice. I think what we are talking about is growing in that inner quiet with an attentiveness for God’s presence. We can acquire a surprising degree proficiency (like several seconds at a time before thoughts intrude). But the intrusions become less bothersome and less frequent. So we sit available to whatever God wants to do and most of that is unnoticeable.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

But I don’t want to say more because I don’t want to derail this very wonderful thread Michael has started. I thank you Michael for opening the door for so many people to speak of the wonderful ways of prayer by which they are being led.

Dave

Thanks but it was you guys made it wonderful

 

[simple_soul]

I don’ think of it as force. Like when you are silent, are you forcing yourself to not talk? No. You are just resting that ability. A step deeper is the inner monologue we all do. When we pause for a moment to look carefully at something or listen carefully we quite naturally quiet even that inner monologue voice. I think what we are talking about is growing in that inner quiet with an attentiveness for God’s presence. We can acquire a surprising degree proficiency (like several seconds at a time before thoughts intrude). But the intrusions become less bothersome and less frequent. So we sit available to whatever God wants to do and most of that is unnoticeable.

I like that explanation. Thank you so much for sharing it.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I like that explanation. Thank you so much for sharing it.

I think also that even when the inner voice is silent we can still be thinking more subtly.
For example, you are sitting there quiet. Inner voice quiet also and you are just aware of being there in that moment when you hear someone trying to start a car. You may not think that with inner words, “That is someone starting a car.” but your mind silently makes the recognition. There are different levels of thought. Sometimes the thought is a wordless image also. I do that a lot (especially if something is lost) I silently imagine all the places.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It isn’t that we stop thinking per se, for that’s impossible.

Rather, it’s letting go of the barrage of thoughts which come into our consciousness, which only serve to draw us away from the focus of our intention, which is being in the presence of God.

When a thought comes into our consciousness, we become aware of it and know that it is an unwanted thought so we should just let it it go.

As soon as we begin to hold it, we begin to give it commentary and before you know it, you’ve been pulled out of prayer into some useless tangent of thoughts which continue to build on each other. Eventually, you become aware that you are no longer praying, but daydreaming. So, just return to the center of your being where Christ dwells, by saying your silent prayer word, of focus of attention which helps you slow down to be in the present, as God is.

Jim

 

[simple_soul]

I think also that even when the inner voice is silent we can still be thinking more subtly.
For example, you are sitting there quiet. Inner voice quiet also and you are just aware of being there in that moment when you hear someone trying to start a car. You may not think that with inner words, “That is someone starting a car.” but your mind silently makes the recognition. There are different levels of thought. Sometimes the thought is a wordless image also. I do that a lot (especially if something is lost) I silently imagine all the places.

I don’t have any words to say other than I beleive I understand what you are saying.

 

[DebChris]

I think also that even when the inner voice is silent we can still be thinking more subtly.
For example, you are sitting there quiet. Inner voice quiet also and you are just aware of being there in that moment when you hear someone trying to start a car. You may not think that with inner words, “That is someone starting a car.” but your mind silently makes the recognition. There are different levels of thought. Sometimes the thought is a wordless image also. I do that a lot (especially if something is lost) I silently imagine all the places.

We cannot force ourselves to think or not think Prayer is conversation. When we open ourselves to listening, there is no need for force. We are simply there to listen to our Beloved.
I like the analogy of the car starting. We have the option of giving the thought our full attention or not, We can run to the window and see who is starting the car, and wonder where they or going, or we can return to the conversation at hand.

 

[ajecphotos]

I find it very hard to let thoughts pass from my mind when trying to pray. Especially when saying the rosary. It is so hard to ‘clear’ the mind! I have tried and will continue to do so.

Great advice in this thread will help. Cheers

 

[simple_soul]

It isn’t that we stop thinking per se, for that’s impossible.

Rather, it’s letting go of the barrage of thoughts which come into our consciousness, which only serve to draw us away from the focus of our intention, which is being in the presence of God.

When a thought comes into our consciousness, we become aware of it and know that it is an unwanted thought so we should just let it it go.

As soon as we begin to hold it, we begin to give it commentary and before you know it, you’ve been pulled out of prayer into some useless tangent of thoughts which continue to build on each other. Eventually, you become aware that you are no longer praying, but daydreaming. So, just return to the center of your being where Christ dwells, by saying your silent prayer word, of focus of attention which helps you slow down to be in the present, as God is.

Jim

Hi Jim, I’ve been thinking about your post here. Mainly about the last part of it. It has got me wondering about something, maybe I just daydream too much, but anyway my question is that a lot of time when I pray I find that my mind tends to dwell on what I am praying about and my actual prayers that are my conversation with God.I’ll take my lack of Trust in God and His plan for me in this life and as I am praying to Jesus and His Mother Mary for them to help me Trust Him better I am also kind of asking them or meditating on my lack of trust in Him and how I need to just let go of all that is making me worried and holding me back from trusting Him. In the process of these prayers it is like this conversation starts up in my head. It is like I start having these thoughts as to why I am so full of a lack of trust and I start to question. Well maybe it is more like analyzing it to try and understand why I find it so hard to just simply Trust Him. This goes for pretty much everything I pray for…my mind tends to wonder from focusing between my prayers and what I am praying about, my intentions, to just sitting quielty with Him. It is like sometimes my mind just wonders of kind of like having a conversation in my head wondering about what I am praying for or about. Then I catch myself, refocuse back on the prayers themselves and God or the Blessed Virgin Mary, and then it seems to repeat untill I am finished praying or have run out of time… In praying this way am I doing what you are describing here?

In reading what you have said her I am wondering if by pondering or letting my mind wonder about what I am praying about or for is letting my imagination run and I keep holding on to it or grasping at it and entertaining those thoughts…instead of just letting them go…
I so hope that makes sence…

 

[Bookcat]

Therefore, one has to interpret correctly the teaching of those masters who recommend “emptying” the spirit of all sensible representations and of every concept, while remaining lovingly attentive to God. In this way, the person praying creates an empty space which can then be filled by the richness of God. However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness. On this topic St. Augustine is an excellent teacher: if you want to find God, he says, abandon the exterior world and re-enter into yourself. However, he continues, do not remain in yourself, but go beyond yourself because you are not God: He is deeper and greater than you. "I look for his substance in my soul and I do not find it; I have however meditated on the search for God and, reaching out to him, through created things, I have sought to know ‘the invisible perfections of God’ (Rom 1:20)."21 “To remain in oneself”: this is the real danger. The great Doctor of the Church recommends concentrating on oneself, but also transcending the self which is not God, but only a creature. God is "deeper than my inmost being and higher than my greatest height."22 In fact God is in us and with us, but he transcends us in his mystery.23

1. From the dogmatic point of view, it is impossible to arrive at a perfect love of God if one ignores his giving of himself to us through his Incarnate Son, who was crucified and rose from the dead. In Him, under the action of the Holy Spirit, we participate, through pure grace, in the interior life of God. When Jesus says, “He who has seen me has seen the Father” (Jn 14:9), he does not mean just the sight and exterior knowledge of his human figure (“the flesh is of no avail”, Jn 6:63). What he means is rather a vision made possible by the grace of faith: to see, through the manifestation of Jesus perceptible by the senses, just what he, as the Word of the Father, truly wants to reveal to us of God (“It is the Spirit that gives life …]; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life”, ibid.). This “seeing” is not a matter of a purely human abstraction (“abs-tractio”) from the figure in which God has revealed himself; it is rather the grasping of the divine reality in the human figure of Jesus, his eternal divine dimension in its temporal form. As St. Ignatius says in the Spiritual Exercises, we should try to capture “the infinite perfume and the infinite sweetness of the divinity” (n. 124), going forward from that finite revealed truth from which we have begun. While he raises us up, God is free to “empty” us of all that holds us back in this world, to draw us completely into the Trinitarian life of his eternal love. However, this gift can only be granted “in Christ through the Holy Spirit,” and not through our own efforts, withdrawing ourselves from his revelation.

From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith document:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html ( - read the whole document)

Footnotes to are important to read as well.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

This reminds me of a distinction between “to make empty” and “emptying”.

We do not make ourselves empty. Instead through our intention to be completely available to God we participate in an ongoing emptying process which is like an ongoing conversion. When a distracting thought comes along we let it go ( as in a poverty of spirit), turn from it back to our intention (as in conversio).

I am awaiting a copy of The Dark Night of the Soul I read it many years ago but now I think I can appreciate it. I will take it very slowly even if it takes years. That is the way I deal with important books. I read them slowly and do not get overwhelmed.

 

[DBT]

Therefore, one has to interpret correctly the teaching of those masters who recommend “emptying” the spirit of all sensible representations and of every concept, while remaining lovingly attentive to God. .

This is the 3rd time this has been posted without explanation. Where are people interpreting incorrectly? Assuming, of course, this is the point you’re trying to make.

 

[Sirach2]

This is the 3rd time this has been posted without explanation. Where are people interpreting incorrectly? Assuming, of course, this is the point you’re trying to make.

Thank you for mentioning that, Dave. I wondered about this also. He seems to be making a rather loud, unjustified statement. Nobody here is “getting it.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hi Jim, I’ve been thinking about your post here. Mainly about the last part of it. It has got me wondering about something, maybe I just daydream too much, but anyway my question is that a lot of time when I pray I find that my mind tends to dwell on what I am praying about and my actual prayers that are my conversation with God.I’ll take my lack of Trust in God and His plan for me in this life and as I am praying to Jesus and His Mother Mary for them to help me Trust Him better I am also kind of asking them or meditating on my lack of trust in Him and how I need to just let go of all that is making me worried and holding me back from trusting Him. In the process of these prayers it is like this conversation starts up in my head. It is like I start having these thoughts as to why I am so full of a lack of trust and I start to question. Well maybe it is more like analyzing it to try and understand why I find it so hard to just simply Trust Him. This goes for pretty much everything I pray for…my mind tends to wonder from focusing between my prayers and what I am praying about, my intentions, to just sitting quielty with Him. It is like sometimes my mind just wonders of kind of like having a conversation in my head wondering about what I am praying for or about. Then I catch myself, refocuse back on the prayers themselves and God or the Blessed Virgin Mary, and then it seems to repeat untill I am finished praying or have run out of time… In praying this way am I doing what you are describing here?

In reading what you have said her I am wondering if by pondering or letting my mind wonder about what I am praying about or for is letting my imagination run and I keep holding on to it or grasping at it and entertaining those thoughts…instead of just letting them go…
I so hope that makes sence…

This tends to be the problem for everyone when we begin “discursive prayer.” We use images and thoughts to wrap our prayers around. This isn’t wrong, but necessary as we are beginners who need to have a formation that we can understand at the time. Sometimes while praying the Rosary, the Hail Mary prayers take president over meditation on the mysteries themselves, even though it’s the mysteries that are to be the focus of our meditation. The Hail Mary’s serve as a pointer for us to go back to meditation, when we become aware that we’ve drifted off to some other place.

For many, without the proper application of what St Teresa termed, “mental prayer,” the verbal prayers dry up and seem like nothing more than memorized words. Many become frustrated and give up praying for long periods of time, or all together. However, others, out of love for God, will feel the draw to deeper levels of prayer and will soon find themselves being brought into the practice of mental prayer, which is praying to God who is present and not out in the abstract cosmos.

I can’t speak for others, but for myself, when I began to learn quiet interior prayer, and being open to contemplation, the focus of my intention was no longer the words of prayer, but being in the presence of God dwelling within, at the center of my being and resting in His loving embrace. My prayer word, “Lord Jesus,” is the compass needle pointing me back to Christ. Whenever I become aware that I had attached myself to a thought and allowed it to take me away, I just return to the prayer word, " Lord Jesus," which places the focus of my intention on His presence.

I think it was Fr Pennington, who wrote an analogy of interior prayer being like two lovers sitting together on a sofa holding each other in their arms. No words between the two are necessary for them to express their love for each other, just being in each others presence, is enough. So it is when we are in the presence of God. No words are necessary, just being in His loving presence is enough.

This is the essence of interior prayer, which St Teresa called Mental Prayer. We are in the presence of God and not some abstract idea of God out in the cosmos. We are in His loving embrace. No words between us are necessary in order to express our love for each other.

Whether we use verbal discursive prayer or quiet interior prayer, our focus needs to be on God who is present, in the moment.

Centered In Christ
Jim

 

[Robert_Sock]

I find it very hard to let thoughts pass from my mind when trying to pray. Especially when saying the rosary. It is so hard to ‘clear’ the mind! I have tried and will continue to do so.

Great advice in this thread will help. Cheers

Good intentions and willingness are quite acceptable to God, even if you do not achieve union with Him the way St John of the Cross did. Very often, I’m the same way as you with my unwanted thoughts. Do not let it trouble you, but pray for the grace to fulfill the First Commandment, and be willing to carry the Cross. Think of the unwanted thoughts as one such Cross. I believe that a contemplative state can happen at any moment where you learn of God’s will for you, and understand things that were never taught to you. Watch out for worldly pleasures and the temptations to seek them. For me, I’m often tempted with very subtle forms of pride, including religious pride.

LOVE!

 

[hazcompat]

The Spiritual Combat
by Fr. Dom Lorenzo Scupoli
based on text at
copiosa.org/spirituality/spiritual_combat.htm

Peace

 

[Robert_Sock]

The Spiritual Combat
by Fr. Dom Lorenzo Scupoli
based on text at
copiosa.org/spirituality/spiritual_combat.htm

Peace

Thank you!

LOVE!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

This is good also:

This formula then shall be proposed to you of this system, which you want, and of prayer, which every monk in his progress towards continual recollection of God, is accustomed to ponder, ceaselessly revolving it in his heart, having got rid of all kinds of other thoughts; for he cannot possibly keep his hold over it unless he has freed himself from all bodily cares and anxieties. And as this was delivered to us by a few of those who were left of the oldest fathers, so it is only divulged by us to a very few and to those who are really keen. And so for keeping up continual recollection of God this pious formula is to be ever set before you. “O God, make speed to save me: O Lord, make haste to help me,”

Conference 10 chapter 10
osb.org/lectio/cassian/conf/book1/conf10.html#10.10

THIS prayer then [The Lord’s Prayer] though it seems to contain all the fulness of perfection, as being what was originated and appointed by the Lord’s own authority, yet lifts those to whom it belongs to that still higher condition of which we spoke above, and carries them on by a loftier stage to that ardent prayer which is known and tried by but very few, and which to speak more truly is ineffable; which transcends all human thoughts, and is distinguished, I will not say by any sound of the voice, but by no movement of the tongue, or utterance of words, but which the mind enlightened by the infusion of that heavenly light describes in no human and confined language, but pours forth richly as from copious fountain in an accumulation of thoughts, and ineffably utters to God, expressing in the shortest possible space of time such great things that the mind when it returns to its usual condition cannot easily utter or relate.

Conference 9 chapter 25
osb.org/lectio/cassian/conf/book1/conf9.html#9.25