St. Philomena vs. Harry Potter

[raphaela]

Your knowledge of the Saints of the Church and Witchcraft is just as woefully lacking as Raphaela’s.

arlene, did you not read my previous post? I was explainign my position and why i drew my conclusions. You need to open to others, don’t shut us down becausewe have differing opinions. Who are you to judge me anyway? Who are you to judge my soul? Only Jesus can do that…unless you are comparing yourself with Jesus and the Church which I really do not recommend you do.

 

[Marauder]

Oh wait, I just read the entire review from the USCCB on Prisoner and look at this line.
USCCB:

To its credit, this is accomplished in well-paced, polished fashion, and – as in the two previous movies – it remains very clearly a fantasy, in no way a textbook for teaching black magic, and thus is no threat to Catholic teaching.

I guess we have people that feel they know more then USCCB.

 

[Arlene_Alice]

My words: Raphaela: Your knowledge of the actuality of witchcraft is totally lacking and un-scriptural. It is actually pathetic how little you know on the subject.

Response: I am judging your “knowledge” on the subject of witchcraft…not you. Perhaps YOU should simmer down.

I would also like to suggest that you bring your friends to this forum who have actually practiced WICCA. Certainly, that would shed some light on what Wiccans really do in their witchcraft today.

Doing a Net Search on WICCA would also enlighten any reader here of the modern day practice of the craft. However, what won’t be advertised on their sites is the satanic side of their practices. “White Magick” eventually turns into “Black Magic” as you progress in rank as witches and warlocks.

May I also suggest that you read Malachi Martin’s “Hostage to the Devil” which documents the real-life dramas of five Americans whose exorcisms were performed between l965 and l974. To those of you who continuously scoff at how “evil spirits” operate in the modern world, this account should knock your socks off. Maybe “levitate” your understanding of the REAL kingdoms of good and evil.

 

[Marauder]

ByzCath:

I never said that the Church has removed any Saints.

Please show where I made any such statements and I will gladly retract them.

What I said was that they removed St Philomena, as well as St Christopher, from the liturgical calendar. There are no longer any feast days for either of them.

Hey, I wasn’t addressing you on this issue, I was addressing the person attacking you. Calm down.

 

[raphaela]

My words: Raphaela: Your knowledge of the actuality of witchcraft is totally lacking and un-scriptural. It is actually pathetic how little you know on the subject.

Notice unscriptural in BOLD…that means, that in a previous post, I said that my opinions were not scriptural since I had not read the Old testament, and therefore had no knowledge of magic in scriptures.

I would also like to suggest that you bring your friends to this forum who have actually practiced WICCA. Certainly, that would shed some light on what Wiccans really do in their witchcraft today.

Can you not take my stand as first hand account since i have read all their books seen some of their rituals and talked extensivley with them about their religion? Just because I’m not wiccan doesn’t mean I don’t know anything about it.

“White Magick” eventually turns into “Black Magic” as you progress in rank as witches and warlocks.

May I ask where you found this information or are you just coming up with your own conclusions…again?

I don’t think you are reading other people’s posts, just picking and choosing what your arguments are without reading the whole.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Marauder:

Hey, I wasn’t addressing you on this issue, I was addressing the person attacking you. Calm down.

Oh…

Please forgive me for being so short… It just seems like on of those days… People seem to not be understanding me…

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Prometheum_x]

Arlene Alice:

My words: Raphaela: Your knowledge of the actuality of witchcraft is totally lacking and un-scriptural. It is actually pathetic how little you know on the subject.

Response: I am judging your “knowledge” on the subject of witchcraft…not you. Perhaps YOU should simmer down.

I would also like to suggest that you bring your friends to this forum who have actually practiced WICCA. Certainly, that would shed some light on what Wiccans really do in their witchcraft today.

Doing a Net Search on WICCA would also enlighten any reader here of the modern day practice of the craft. However, what won’t be advertised on their sites is the satanic side of their practices. “White Magick” eventually turns into “Black Magic” as you progress in rank as witches and warlocks.

May I also suggest that you read Malachi Martin’s “Hostage to the Devil” which documents the real-life dramas of five Americans whose exorcisms were performed between l965 and l974. To those of you who continuously scoff at how “evil spirits” operate in the modern world, this account should knock your socks off. Maybe “levitate” your understanding of the REAL kingdoms of good and evil.

Arlene, you may find it more productive to remove the antagonistic tone from your writing. Regardless of the truth of either position, dialogue without charity is an ugly thing.

 

[Arlene_Alice]

The USCCB issued their opinion about the Harry Potter series, but I wouldn’t give it the status of an encyclical. Several posts on the subject mentioned that the Vatican exorcist has stated he feels the Potter series use of the occult is dangerous. I would value his opinion because he has experienced demon possession. Many Bishops haven’t.

My apologies for sounding “antagonistic” on this thread. My hope was to convince Catholic parents that exposing their children to sound Catholic literature helps in the formation of true faith. Sometimes my passion for the subject sounds strident.

However, when folks tell me that they have never read the Old Testament, or resourced the Bible or Catechism on these issues, but they definitely know what they know…I lose my cool. I have to then wonder, where do Catholics go to find the truth?

A little background information may help. In the late 70s I had experimented with the New Age nonsense; i.e., Silva Mind Control, crystals, the paranormal, spiritism, Edgar Cayce, pyramid power, “faith” healing, etc. The occult holds a lot of fascination to those seeking some control or power in their lives. I speak before Catholic Charismatic Prayer and Women’s groups about my experiences. I have done extensive studies and research on the subject. I counseled with Fr. Mitch Pacwa, author of “Catholics and the New Age.”

My advice still remains [and I know Fr. Pacwa would agree] - stay away from the occult. That is stated with the utmost sincerity and charity.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Arlene Alice:

The USCCB issued their opinion about the Harry Potter series, but I wouldn’t give it the status of an encyclical. Several posts on the subject mentioned that the Vatican exorcist has stated he feels the Potter series use of the occult is dangerous. I would value his opinion because he has experienced demon possession. Many Bishops haven’t.

My apologies for sounding “antagonistic” on this thread. My hope was to convince Catholic parents that exposing their children to sound Catholic literature helps in the formation of true faith. Sometimes my passion for the subject sounds strident.

However, when folks tell me that they have never read the Old Testament, or resourced the Bible or Catechism on these issues, but they definitely know what they know…I lose my cool. I have to then wonder, where do Catholics go to find the truth?

A little background information may help. In the late 70s I had experimented with the New Age nonsense; i.e., Silva Mind Control, crystals, the paranormal, spiritism, Edgar Cayce, pyramid power, “faith” healing, etc. The occult holds a lot of fascination to those seeking some control or power in their lives. I speak before Catholic Charismatic Prayer and Women’s groups about my experiences. I have done extensive studies and research on the subject. I counseled with Fr. Mitch Pacwa, author of “Catholics and the New Age.”

My advice still remains [and I know Fr. Pacwa would agree] - stay away from the occult. That is stated with the utmost sincerity and charity.

Much better.

 

[Marauder]

Arlene Alice:

Several posts on the subject mentioned that the Vatican exorcist has stated he feels the Potter series use of the occult is dangerous.

If this is the case can you please point to a link from a real news source (preferably a Catholic new source) that says this is the case. I have seen several people say this, but I have never seen something from a reputable place say it. Doing a search on the net, the most authentic site that I found that claim this is atheism.com. And we all know how trustworthy that site is.

In the past I have heard lots of people claim that senior officials at the Vatican claimed X, and usually that isn’t the case.

 

[Marauder]

Arlene Alice,
Thank-you for toning down you response. We are all trying to answer posts with a degree of charity and humbleness.
Arlene Alice:

The USCCB issued their opinion about the Harry Potter series, but I wouldn’t give it the status of an encyclical. Several posts on the subject mentioned that the Vatican exorcist has stated he feels the Potter series use of the occult is dangerous. I would value his opinion because he has experienced demon possession. Many Bishops haven’t.

Just like you said about the other person that commented on Harry Potter, it is just his opinion. Unless the church comes out and says one way or the other then other people can have their opinion. Since the church as a whole doesn’t make a habit of commenting on specific things in pop culture, I doubt we will ever see an official thing on this other then opinion.

However, when folks tell me that they have never read the Old Testament, or resourced the Bible or Catechism on these issues, but they definitely know what they know…I lose my cool. I have to then wonder, where do Catholics go to find the truth?

Don’t forget that it is only recently that the Catholic church has stressed reading the Bible. A lot of older Catholics were under the mistaken impression that the church forbid reading the Bible. The only exposure to the OT that a lot of Catholics get is what is contained in the readings during Mass. Hopefully these Catholics get their truth from Mass and eventually realize that reading the Bible is a good thing. Don’t forget that a lot of Protestants read very little of the OT also. I personally have read a lot of the OT, but that is because I love the Liturgy of the Hours and it gave me a newfound appreciation of the OT.

A little background information may help. In the late 70s I had experimented with the New Age nonsense; i.e., Silva Mind Control, crystals, the paranormal, spiritism, Edgar Cayce, pyramid power, “faith” healing, etc. The occult holds a lot of fascination to those seeking some control or power in their lives. I speak before Catholic Charismatic Prayer and Women’s groups about my experiences. I have done extensive studies and research on the subject. I counseled with Fr. Mitch Pacwa, author of “Catholics and the New Age.”

I agree that the occult is a powerful draw to some people and it is very dangerous. Some get caught up in seemingly innocent things (i.e. John Edwards) and find out they are actually believing very non-Catholic ideas.

If a kid is picking up Harry Potter and reading it without parental supervision and thinking the magic is real, that is a bad thing. I however as a Catholic parent, think it is more an issue of bad parenting then strides into the occult. I believe that a kid should be able to view fantasy movies as long as the parent makes clear and is able to tell that the kid realizes it is just fiction/entertainment and that it isn’t real.

I personally grew up reading a lot of science fiction, fantasy, and other novels as a kid. I even briefly dabbled in Dungeons and Dragons, but I knew all the books and D&D was just fiction, nothing real. My parents instilled enough ethics and understanding in me to know the difference.

 

[Arlene_Alice]

Marauder: The idea that the Catholic Church has only stressed reading the Bible recently is a myth, according to experts on the subject. Bible reading, for those Catholics who could read - and many couldn’t until recent history, has always been encouraged. It is private interpretation of the Bible that the Church frowns upon. This was Martin Luther’s contribution to the error that has existed since the so-called Reformation, resulting in the epidemic fractures in the unity of the Church. There are some 2,500 “Protestant” sects, with 60,000 sub-sects, all privately interpreting the Bible to suit their understanding. Certainly a scandal to the intent of our Lord to keep the ONENESS of His Church.

There was recently much discussion regarding the bad side effects of playing "Dungeons and Dragons, " including the risk of teenage suicide and an increase in violence.

Conclusion, some minds can differentiate truth from fantasy…some can’t. It is to those that we must show our Christian concern.

I watched a different version of the Moses story, starring Ben Kingsley, on TV last night. It struck me that even his brother Aaron and the Isrealites who were witnesses to the many miracles, signs and wonders performed by God during the Exodus, fell back on pagan worship of the golden calf when they became restless and confused.

Isn’t that a sign of our times? We search for God in all of the wrong places?

 

[naprous]

The saint who was really a dog…

St. Guinefort.
fordham.edu/halsall/source/guinefort.html

Obviously, this link shows that Etienne de Bourbon, a Dominican inquisitor of the thirteenth century, made a real attempt to put down the veneration of St. Guinefort. However, archeological digs have ascertained that the site continued to be venerated as a locus of sanctity for the healing of children until the beginning of the twentieth century (there’s a book about this called The Holy Greyhound by Jean-Claude Schmitt, and a pretty darned good movie called Sorceress (Le Moine et la Sorciere in French)).

However, there’s another “saint” who has a dog’s head: St. Christopher. He’s particularly depicted this way in the East. See the icon at catholic-forum.com/saints/stc05001.htm

Now, as for St. Philomena and canonization… The official “process” for canonization similar to what is done today didn’t begin until the twelfth century – before that, “sainthood” was simply by acclamation. So St. Philomena was never “canonized.” And the historical evidence for St. Philomena is pretty flimsy, I’m afraid. She’s not alone. There are a lot of “saints” venerated in many places who have only a tenuous connection to the real world…

The Vatican did do a “cleaning out” of the liturgical calendar some time ago, and “saints” like Christopher, Philomena, and others were removed. I believe the story is that it was no longer considered obligatory to believe in them, though the faithful were “allowed” to continue to believe in them.

Naprous

 

[Marauder]

Talk about reviving an old thread.
Arlene Alice:

Marauder: The idea that the Catholic Church has only stressed reading the Bible recently is a myth, according to experts on the subject. Bible reading, for those Catholics who could read - and many couldn’t until recent history, has always been encouraged.

Notice I said stressed versus allowed. It is not a myth that there were times that the Catholic church did not stress reading the Bible privately. It is a myth that the Catholic church ever forbid reading valid translations of the Bible. Even now the Catholic church does not stress reading the Bible as much as our Protestant brothers do.

There was recently much discussion regarding the bad side effects of playing "Dungeons and Dragons, " including the risk of teenage suicide and an increase in violence.

Conclusion, some minds can differentiate truth from fantasy…some can’t. It is to those that we must show our Christian concern.

Just because some can differentiate the differences between fantasy and reality, doesn’t mean you should forbid all people from reading fantasy. It is up to the parents to determine if their kids know the difference. Another example of blaming society for bad parenting.

Isn’t that a sign of our times? We search for God in all of the wrong places?

Who said we are allowing kids to “find God” in a book. I have read lots of fantasy books, both as a kid and as an adult and I never confused what I was reading with God. It is up to the parents to make sure their kids are grounded enough to know the difference and if not, protect them.

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

Catholics and Catholic parents who along with their children know and read more about Harry Potter instead of the Saints have done and are doing a great disservice to themselves and their children.

Any parent who has kids and allows them to read ANY fantasy…especially Harry Potter, BEFORE introducing them to the FACTUAL and SUPERNATURAL stories of Saints should be ashamed.

 

[Arlene_Alice]

Naprous:

According to the introduction of the book “St. Philomena - Powerful with God” by Sr. Marie Helene Mohr, S.C., [Tan Books] holding an Imprimatur by Archbishop Kiley, “The Instruction of the Sacred Congregation of Rites regarding St. Philomena’s feast was a LITURGICAL DIRECTIVE - not a denial of sainthood nor a directive regarding private devotion.”

Continuing private devotion to the Saint was condoned by Pope Paul VI and Bishop of Mysore, India, and head of St. Philomena’s Cathedral there.

The testimony to her effectiveness continues: “In the final analysis and archeological disputes aside, if St. Philomena is truly in Heaven and worthy of our veneration, and the Popes have said she is, then the faithful are entirely warranted in their devotion to her. Truly, St. Philomen’as popularity would scarecely have circulated throughout the world had not those who are devoted to her recived signal favors in response to their prayers to her for help.”

It is only the skeptics who have tried to diminish her favor with the Lord.

Faithful 2 Rome: Thank you for your support of my premise. Parents who foolishly expose their children to works of the world which DO NOT give honor and glory to God, but rather display a betrayal of the truths we must defend, should be “ashamed” of themselves.

Christian book stores beg for our business - while Hollywood goes laughing all the way to the bank and use their $$$$ to outrageously undermine Judeo/Christian values.

I challenge parents to think about supporting Catholic literature, rather than pagan literature. It is you who are answerable to God for your child’s Christian formation.

 

[Iccaro]

Reacting this way to Harry Potter is very much judging a book by its cover. Those books very cleverly teach real world and biblical lessons to children who otherwise not hear them. The books are about good triumphing over evil in all of its forms. They are about camaraderie, trust, truth, perseverance against all odds, and are excellent at showing how each child has his or her strengths no matter what their obvious limitations may be.

This sort of knee jerk reaction to fiction is disgusting and smacks of ignorance. This post is not a personal attack but merely a commentary on what I see around me every day. People hate things and they don’t even know why. People say something is evil or a sin and they have no idea why. They sit in judgment based on prejudices of all sorts they were raised with and they have no idea why. Some call not asking the “whys” faith. Again I call that breeding ignorance. Children are home schooled so they are not exposed to the real world and so the parents ideals can be forced into the minds of their children. They want them to be ignorant. Why is this? So they never ask why. So they don’t make up their own minds. Blind faith simply isn’t faith at all, it is habit, it is culture learned. When that “faith” is challenged what happens? The same thing that happens to anything not built on a solid foundation, it crumbles. Children and adults need a foundation built of understanding. There is a reason we are now confirmed around 17 instead of 13, choice. We are able to make an intelligent informed decision about being part of the church.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Iccaro:

Children are home schooled so they are not exposed to the real world and so the parents ideals can be forced into the minds of their children. They want them to be ignorant. Why is this? So they never ask why. So they don’t make up their own minds.

I was with you until you started to spout this.

Seems you have issues with people.

I understand the reason to home school. To keep children from being indoctrinated in what “society” sees as good today. Valueless education is destroying our youth.

There is a reason we are now confirmed around 17 instead of 13, choice. We are able to make an intelligent informed decision about being part of the church.

This shows a lack of understanding of what Chrismation (Confirmation) is and a lack of understanding of the Church as it is only the Latin Church that does this. We in the Byzantine Churches Chrismate at the same time as Baptism and First Eucharist. We do these with infants.

 

[raphaela]

Byzcath, I’m sure there are some…not all…parents who homeschool for their own reasons, such as pushing thier beliefs onto their children. I agree that homeschooling can be a very wondeful thing but there are a few parents who neglect to tell their children about the real world or allow them to be exposed to it at all. This cause great confusion in the children eventually especially when they need to critically think through a situation and are unable to do so because their parents did not teach them the skills necessary. Children, IMO, need to be exposed to some of the less good things around them in order for them to get a clear understanding of what is right and what is wrong. I think that is what iccaro (sp?) was trying to say, not condemning all homeschoolers…or at least I hope not.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

raphaela,
You and Iccaro seem to be placing a motivation on Homeschooling parents that you can not know nor prove. That is very uncharitable.

Seems you have the same issues about homeschooling.

Both of you also seem to have the mistaken view that schooling outside of the home represents reality/real world. Another thing I disagree with.

There are such things as church groups, boy/girl scouts, clubs, other groups, communtiy sports. There are many ways for children to socialize with others.

I do not agree that children need to be exposed to bad things so that they can learn right and wrong.