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jimmy
Guest
Father Ambrose is an Orthodox Priest.
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Fr_Ambrose
Guest
Dear Axion,
If you look at my first message in this thread you will see that I did just what you are suggesting. Message # 4. I signed myself as
Fr Ambrose/Russian Orthodox
The reason I did this was that I thought there may be people reading this thread who need to know my own religious background and read my posts in the light of that knowledge.
Are you yourself Greek Orthodox? The name “Axion” suggests that you are.
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Fr_Ambrose
Guest
I find it very confusing that someone is allowed to take the tltle **Father ** Ambrose on this board, and yet constantly attack the teachings of the Catholic ChurchI find myself in the company of three eminent Catholic Saints and theologians: Thomas Aquinas, Bernard of Clairvaux and Catherine of Siena
Anima Christi has devoted this thread to Aquinas’ understanding of the Immaculate Conception. Let’s return to discussing that and my apologies for taking it off thread now and again, with Irish Saints, etc.
I would like to get to the bottom of Catherine of Siena’s claim that she had a revelation from Our Lady which denied the Immaculate Conception, and that would seem to be on topic as she was also a Dominican and within the Thomistic school of theology.
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Axion
Guest
Fr Ambrose:
Sorry. Not so. Though I am sympathetic to the Orthodox - who have borne the brunt of defening Christianity from attack from the East. However I find that **some ** Orthodox seem over-keen to hang on to old grudges against the Catholic Church.
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Axion
Guest
Fr Ambrose:
Sorry. Not so. Though I am sympathetic to the Orthodox - who have borne the brunt of defening Christianity from attack from the East. However I find that **some ** Orthodox seem over-keen to hang on to old grudges against the Catholic Church.
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Dorothy
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr Ambrose
Catherine of Sienna, another great Catholic theologian and mystic, weighed in on the anti-Immaculate Conception side after she had a personal revelation from Christ that Mary was conceived in original sin.
Could you please tell us the source of that information.?
Nate
In a tape called “Private Revelations” by Father Benedict Groeschel, he mentioned that erroneous statement made by St. Catherine of Siena. He used that to point out that even saints can err with regard to their private revelations, and it doesn’t take away anything from their sanctity, if they are obedient to their spiritual directors. We must remember that an error of a saint is not to be confused with a magisterial teaching of the Church.
Peace,
Dorothy
Originally Posted by Fr Ambrose
Catherine of Sienna, another great Catholic theologian and mystic, weighed in on the anti-Immaculate Conception side after she had a personal revelation from Christ that Mary was conceived in original sin.
Could you please tell us the source of that information.?
Nate
In a tape called “Private Revelations” by Father Benedict Groeschel, he mentioned that erroneous statement made by St. Catherine of Siena. He used that to point out that even saints can err with regard to their private revelations, and it doesn’t take away anything from their sanctity, if they are obedient to their spiritual directors. We must remember that an error of a saint is not to be confused with a magisterial teaching of the Church.
Peace,
Dorothy
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Primitive
Guest
I think we should remember that to God we are told obedience is more important than sacrifice.
Just because Mary underwent the purification ritual does not mean that she was sinful…she fufilled this ritual out of obedience because she was Jewish. If she did not, that would have also caused further confusion among the Jews who would not take someone seriously who stated she was sinless…the Jews did not accept the Messiah, why would they then accept this?
This sort of argument is backed up by scripture in the life of Jesus. Jesus who was without sin and completely perfect was also Jewish and totally obedient to his Heavenly Father. Because of this Jesus was baptised…He had no need of this sacrament, yet fufilled it out if his own free will and obedience to The Father. This was also true of His circumcision.
As for saints saying things that are “in conflict” with the church teachings, it is the church who is the deciding factor (the sole judge and authority). The saints are not infallible. Both St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Catherine of Sienna may have believed the Immaculate Conception (eventually if not initially) however they may have gone through a phase where they didn’t. “Saint” does not automatically mean they wereperfect and all knowing. Saints wrote things (to keep notes perhaps) as most of us do, but just because they write something down, does not mean that is the belief they kept until death. Saints make mistakes, even the first pope St. Peter denied Christ three times…what makes us think that other saints are any less human? That is what makes saints so great, is that they are fallible human creatures and abandon themselves completely to God.
Personally, I keep a couple notebooks full of things I think of and write when I have questions and doubts so that I can look back on them and reflect of find answers…some may seem blasphemous to an outside entity (other than myself the author), but they are still thoughts of mine that are there and require answers for me. Were I to die and someone page through them, that person may think I did not fully accept the Catholic beliefs, but they are nothing more than my ideas and writings that I am constantly contemplating asking how, and why etc.
Out of curiosity, though private revelation is not dogma and not required for belief, didn’t our Blessed Mother appear in a church approved apparition and say “I am the Immaculate Conception”…? Woudn’t this then conflict with a private revelation to St. Catherine? Maybe St. Catherine had a misunderstanding…The Virgin Mary does not appear one day and say I am this way and then turn around a few years later and say “oh, I was just kidding by the way”…
All these Theological writings and so much confusion…let us not forget common sense!..
Remember this passage:
At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to little ones. (Mt. 11:25)
Just because Mary underwent the purification ritual does not mean that she was sinful…she fufilled this ritual out of obedience because she was Jewish. If she did not, that would have also caused further confusion among the Jews who would not take someone seriously who stated she was sinless…the Jews did not accept the Messiah, why would they then accept this?
This sort of argument is backed up by scripture in the life of Jesus. Jesus who was without sin and completely perfect was also Jewish and totally obedient to his Heavenly Father. Because of this Jesus was baptised…He had no need of this sacrament, yet fufilled it out if his own free will and obedience to The Father. This was also true of His circumcision.
As for saints saying things that are “in conflict” with the church teachings, it is the church who is the deciding factor (the sole judge and authority). The saints are not infallible. Both St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Catherine of Sienna may have believed the Immaculate Conception (eventually if not initially) however they may have gone through a phase where they didn’t. “Saint” does not automatically mean they wereperfect and all knowing. Saints wrote things (to keep notes perhaps) as most of us do, but just because they write something down, does not mean that is the belief they kept until death. Saints make mistakes, even the first pope St. Peter denied Christ three times…what makes us think that other saints are any less human? That is what makes saints so great, is that they are fallible human creatures and abandon themselves completely to God.
Personally, I keep a couple notebooks full of things I think of and write when I have questions and doubts so that I can look back on them and reflect of find answers…some may seem blasphemous to an outside entity (other than myself the author), but they are still thoughts of mine that are there and require answers for me. Were I to die and someone page through them, that person may think I did not fully accept the Catholic beliefs, but they are nothing more than my ideas and writings that I am constantly contemplating asking how, and why etc.
Out of curiosity, though private revelation is not dogma and not required for belief, didn’t our Blessed Mother appear in a church approved apparition and say “I am the Immaculate Conception”…? Woudn’t this then conflict with a private revelation to St. Catherine? Maybe St. Catherine had a misunderstanding…The Virgin Mary does not appear one day and say I am this way and then turn around a few years later and say “oh, I was just kidding by the way”…
All these Theological writings and so much confusion…let us not forget common sense!..
Remember this passage:
At that time Jesus answered and said: I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to little ones. (Mt. 11:25)
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Anne_Carmel
Guest
And we’ll leave it at that. Thank you for your participation.
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