Stable gay relationship is better than a 'temporary' one, says Cardinal Schönborn [CH-UK]

[edwest2]

The article originally linked talked about recognizing the good even in essentially disordered relationships:

“The Church’s ministers, the cardinal said, should recognise what is good where it is found. For example, he said, a civil marriage is better than simply living together, because it signifies a couple has made a formal, public commitment to one another. “Instead of talking about everything that is missing, we can draw close to this reality, noting what is positive in this love that is establishing itself.””

He wasn’t limiting the discussion to homosexual relationships. I think we have to recognize that our current culture is steeped and saturated, totally immersed, in sexual disorder, of which same sex relationships and gay marriage are simply the most recent manifestation.

A few generations ago, parents would not have looked upon cohabitation by their children with significant others with equanimity. Now they do. They would not have shrugged their shoulders at a hook-up culture on college campuses, or at middle school kids engaging in sex. Now, it’s regarded as just something that happens, something normal, the way things are. They would have been outraged at the common availability of porn, and at the poisoning of the children’s mind and imagination from an early age. Now, it’s not much of a big deal.

The culture has fallen so far, so fast, that now we are limited to looking for the ‘good’ in fornication, in broken families, in sodomy, and in every possible deviation from the good. I have to wonder just how successful that project can be in reforming the culture. We’re saying in effect, the culture has gone down the drain and us with it, but let’s look for the good in that.

We must reform ourselves. I have resisted going down the drain for 40 years. Yes, it took that long. The moment any of us stop caring, we stop being the salt of the earth. I address this to everyone. Even if one person knows the difference between right and wrong, that’s better than, “Oh well. What can you do?”

I’m not going to make the best of this. I’ve stopped buying many magazines, rarely watch TV and see one or two movies a year. I don’t even own a TV. There are books I’ve thrown in the trash.

It’s over. If the media wants to feed me junk, I stop caring about the junk. If I wake up, look out the window and the world is still there, I go to work. I avoid ‘popular culture’ as much as possible. I’m aware of it but I refuse to participate in most of it.

I don’t even listen to music on the radio. It’s a waste.

Ed

 

[HCTC]

Our Lord was condemning hypocritical judgment, not judging in general. In St. Matthew vii. 4 “Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?”, Our Lord was speaking of hypocrisy in which we correct the minor faults of others while we are committing the same faults even to a greater degree. Our Lord further explains what He is saying in the next verse: “Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye”. It is clear from the part in which Our Lord says “then shalt thou see to cast out the mote of thy brother’s eye” that we are permitted to judge, just as long as it is without hypocrisy since we won’t have any effect if it is.

There are other verses in the Bible in which we are actually told to judge and admonish sinners. In the Epistle of St. James v. 19-20 “My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.”

In Ezechiel iii. 18-19 " If, when I say to the wicked, Thou shalt surely die: thou declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. But if thou give warning to the wicked, and he be not converted from his wickedness, and from his evil way: he indeed shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul." You may read more here, in particular the subtitle Judge Not Lest You Be Judged Judge Not - Tim Staples

It seems to me that Pope Francis has a different take on Mathew, Chapter 7 than you do:

americamagazine.org/issue/pope-francis-we-all-risk-being-hypocrites-including-me

 

[JimG]

Pope Francis says " The first step is to acknowledge our own faults. The courage to acknowledge this before accusing others."

That’s true; we must acknowledge and confess our own faults. That’s primary. But if I go to confession and the priest says “well, I’m not going to judge you,” I’d be a little perplexed. And if he said, “look, it’s not my place to judge; nobody needs to come here to tell me their sins,” I’d be even more perplexed.

 

[sarah_j]

Our Lord was condemning hypocritical judgment, not judging in general.

There are other verses in the Bible in which we are actually told to judge and admonish sinners.

Of course, we are supposed to use judgment and we are told to point out
wrong behavior to our loved ones. Sadly, rather than risk their relationship, people often
turn a blind eye to behaviors which are harming the very person they care about.
I struggle with this…it’s so much easier NOT to say anything.
But many times, that isn’t the right thing to do.

Matt.18- If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Ezekiel 3:18-19 - When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

 

[HCTC]

Pope Francis says " The first step is to acknowledge our own faults. The courage to acknowledge this before accusing others."

That’s true; we must acknowledge and confess our own faults. That’s primary. But if I go to confession and the priest says “well, I’m not going to judge you,” I’d be a little perplexed. And if he said, “look, it’s not my place to judge; nobody needs to come here to tell me their sins,” I’d be even more perplexed.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/how-do-you-become-a-saint-pope-francis-gives-a-hint-58331/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+catholicnewsagency%2Fdailynews+%28CNA+Daily+News%29&utm_term=daily+news

Vatican City, Sep 12, 2015 / 04:02 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Find someone who has never spoken ill of another person, someone who has never judged another – and they would qualify for immediate canonization, Pope Francis said.

The Pope celebrated Mass in the Santa Marta residence on Friday, stressing during his homily the importance of the Christian values of humility, forgiveness, and mercy.

His words followed a meditation from St. Paul – “do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn and you will not be condemned.”

“These days, the Liturgy has led us to consider this, to reflect on this path of mercy, of forgiveness, of the Christian way with these sentiments of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, and patience,” Pope Francis said.

With a “generous spirit,” the Holy Father said, Christians should let themselves be animated by this virtue, which will lead them to “give all we have, from our heart – to give love above all.”

The Christian way, according to Pope Francis, requires forbearing one another with an attitude that “leads to love, to forgiveness, to patience.”

However, Pope Francis warned against the evils of hypocrisy, saying that everyone is at risk of becoming too judgmental – even the Pope.

“Men and women who can’t learn how to acknowledge their own faults become hypocrites. All of them? All of them: starting from the Pope downwards,” he noted.

“The first step is to acknowledge our own faults,” he said. He added that Christians everywhere must be aware of their own failings before they can “take the splinter out of our brother’s eye” – a reflection from the gospel words of St. Luke.

Although a beautiful sentiment, the Pope questioned the feasibility of the path one must take towards a life of love, mercy and generosity. “It’s beautiful, but how does one do it?”

Begin by blaming yourself and having the courage to blame yourself before faulting others, he answered – this is the way to mercy.

“If you cannot take this first step, ask the Lord for the grace of conversion,” Pope Francis said, noting that when one stops thinking about the faults of others they will have the time to consider their own downfalls.

For anyone who struggles with gossiping, they should resist the urge to speak about others and look inward – even performing an examination of conscience if necessary, he said…

“Let’s refrain from comments about others and let’s comment about ourselves. And this is the first step along this path of magnanimity.”

“Because a person who can only see the splinters in the eyes of others falls into pettiness: a petty mind, full of pettiness, full of chatter.”

Anyone who continues down the path of hypocrisy will be unable to partake in the Christian vocation of peacemaking, compassion, patience, and mercy, the Pope said. He then said that a person with a judgmental attitude cannot be a Christian.

However, the Christian who forgives with love and mercy will double their return…

“What will you receive? A good, brimming, abundant overflowing amount will be deposited within your bosom, because your journey shall be measured according to the standard with which you judge,” he said…

Pope Francis ended his homily with a prayer, asking the Lord for the strength to follow the example of St. Paul in generosity, forgiveness and mercy.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Pope Francis says " The first step is to acknowledge our own faults. The courage to acknowledge this before accusing others."

That’s true; we must acknowledge and confess our own faults. That’s primary. But if I go to confession and the priest says “well, I’m not going to judge you,” I’d be a little perplexed. And if he said, “look, it’s not my place to judge; nobody needs to come here to tell me their sins,” I’d be even more perplexed.

Reading on Pope Francis says… “When we get tempted to talk to people about the faults of others, we must stop ourselves. And me? And have the courage that Paul had, here: ‘I used to be a blasphemer, a persecutor, a violent man’… But how many things can we say about ourselves? Let’s refrain from comments about others and let’s comment about ourselves. And this is the first step along this path of magnanimity. Because a person who can only see the logs in the eyes of others, falls into pettiness: a petty mind, full of pettiness, full of chatter.”

 

[sarah_j]

Reading on Pope Francis says… “When we get tempted to talk to people about the faults of others, we must stop ourselves. And me? And have the courage that Paul had, here: ‘I used to be a blasphemer, a persecutor, a violent man’… But how many things can we say about ourselves? Let’s refrain from comments about others and let’s comment about ourselves. And this is the first step along this path of magnanimity. Because a person who can only see the logs in the eyes of others, falls into pettiness: a petty mind, full of pettiness, full of chatter.”

It sounds like the Pope is telling us not to gossip about people.
Commenting on someone’s behavior to others does no one any good.

Gossiping is not at all the same thing as admonishment.
The Bible tells us we should admonish sinners about their behavior…
i.e. speak to *them *about their behavior.

Of course, we are all sinners…and when someone admonishes me about
my behavior, I should be humble enough to realize that fact.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

What you have said is appallingly inaccurate and reactionary, given the overwhelming number of loving homes and families that have been created. Perhaps you might want to visit and see for yourself how children are doing in same sex families. It makes a difference when you actually know people and can see how good things are as they create a home together.

And perhaps you would want to compare it with abuses done by biological mothers and fathers. But that is beside the point. The point, as we keep going back to, is the Cardinal’s statement that good, stable relationships make for good homes and families. And when we encourage such stability, it is a good thing for everyone involved.

How about a “nice loving home” in a polyamory arrangement, or incestual one? The dysfunctional relationship is the dinosaur in the living room, just as alcoholism, drug addiction or other kinds of abuse or immorality not acknowledged in a family. Mystification is a real psychological burden for children and don’t think they are not aware of the dysfunctionality of the two women or men bringing them up.

They have to continue rationalizing whatever is wrong in a family in order to survive but at a huge cost. Two women can take care of kids if they want but to pretend they are mommy and daddy is too much. But anyway we live in a culture prone to fantasizing, being what WE want, getting what WE want, rather than have to conform to reality and rules.

There is truth in the saying “Don’t tear down a fence before you know the reason it was put up”. All the strictures and protections against this kind of sexual acting out had a purpose. Some countries got it right like Russia and won’t let a toe in the door of this nonsense.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

We must reform ourselves. I have resisted going down the drain for 40 years. Yes, it took that long. The moment any of us stop caring, we stop being the salt of the earth. I address this to everyone. Even if one person knows the difference between right and wrong, that’s better than, “Oh well. What can you do?”

I’m not going to make the best of this. I’ve stopped buying many magazines, rarely watch TV and see one or two movies a year. I don’t even own a TV. There are books I’ve thrown in the trash. It’s over. If the media wants to feed me junk, I stop caring about the junk. If I wake up, look out the window and the world is still there, I go to work. I avoid ‘popular culture’ as much as possible. I’m aware of it but I refuse to participate in most of it. I don’t even listen to music on the radio. It’s a waste.
Ed

It’s encouraging to hear this. I wonder how many pockets of resistance there are to a feel good culture that demands that everyone join in and chant how great it is?

A BIG problem is bringing up children not to be sucked into popular culture. They remain immature for as long as they are hooked up to it which makes them more susceptible and less critical. Be a kid forever! Peer pressure means there are more of them than one of you. Civilized culture takes work. It is an effort to read, to sort out complex ideas, to sit through an entire symphony. Popular culture is prepackaged and one only needs to react to it. When the hard realities of life start kicking in, extended adolescence is not prepared. Some people though never grow up, a rampant phenomenon in our so-called culture.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

It seems to me that Pope Francis has a different take on Mathew, Chapter 7 than you do:

americamagazine.org/issue/pope-francis-we-all-risk-being-hypocrites-including-me

Here is a quote from the article that I provided a link for that I think applies to what the Holy Father is talking about.

In order to understand Pope Francis’ words, we have to separate two senses in which he used the term ‘judge.’ When the Pope said, ‘Who am I to judge?’ he was alluding to our Lord’s famous words from the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 7:1—Judge not, that you be not judged. This is speaking of the judging of the actions of others. Our Lord is all in favor as we will see below.

When the Pope spoke of homosexuals being judged in the sense of being ‘condemned,’ he was referring to the absolute prohibition of ‘judging’ the inner motives of the heart, or the eternal destination of souls. According to St. Paul, in I Cor. 4:3-5, this we ought never do as Christians…

To many, and evidently to Barbara Walters, ‘judge not’ here [in St. Matthew vii. 1-5] means if you want to follow Jesus, you cannot judge anyone in any sense. Committed adultery, did you? Just pull out your Matt. 7:1 ‘judge not’ card and no one can say anything about what you’ve done. I mean, after all, ‘You don’t want to judge anyone,’ right? Homosexual sin? ‘Don’t you dare judge!’

But the context of Matthew 7 makes clear that our Lord was not condemning all judgment. He was condemning being hypocritical in judgment. He condemns the tendency all of us have, and we must guard against, to judge others more severely than we judge ourselves.

I am not advocating for judgment that is reserved to God alone, which is to judge the state of another’s soul. I am saying that we must judge people in regards to their actions that we can see, and not pretend that we are blind to glaring sin. Just as we are instructed to do by the Church in the spiritual works of mercy, we should admonish those that we see doing sinful actions.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Of course, we are supposed to use judgment and we are told to point out
wrong behavior to our loved ones. Sadly, rather than risk their relationship, people often
turn a blind eye to behaviors which are harming the very person they care about.
I struggle with this…it’s so much easier NOT to say anything.
But many times, that isn’t the right thing to do.

I struggle with that as well. I always look to the guidance of the Holy Ghost to discern when it is prudent to admonish someone and how to do it so that they see the error in their ways, and then to give me the strength to even say anything at all. I hope the Holy Ghost will guide help you as well.

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

I consider Cardinal Schonborn to be a faithful and orthodox prelate (he studied under Pope Benedict XVI and wrote the YouCat after all).

Maybe he was saying this in the context of the lesser of two evils?
such as his comment that having sex with a condom while you are HIV positive is a lesser sin than risking infecting others, but still a sin nonetheless?

Please correct me if I misunderstood his words.

 

[Tomdstone]

(It’s not really an argument for same-sex marriage; just that, as is patently obvious, a stable-relationship same-sex couple have just as much potential to be good parents as any other).

But isn’t that the argument that some pro-SS marriage people are making?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I consider Cardinal Schonborn to be a faithful and orthodox prelate (he studied under Pope Benedict XVI and wrote the YouCat after all).

Maybe he was saying this in the context of the lesser of two evils?
such as his comment that having sex with a condom while you are HIV positive is a lesser sin than risking infecting others, but still a sin nonetheless?

Please correct me if I misunderstood his words.

Neither of those cases are about the lesser of two evils, both are about the beginnings of paths towards holiness.

 

[zz912]

You read too many right wing blogs that push their undisciplined bias. If you are going to make such unsubstantiated and outrageous statements have the decency to them back up with legitimate non-biased scientific sources.

frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02

 

[zz912]

We rewrite the Bible all the time. Or perhaps I should rephrase that and say that we gloss over the parts that we have decided culturally, politically, or even morally do not apply any more.

Some examples are about the role of women especially. I haven’t really gone into the Hebrew Bible texts - some of which we as Christians keep and some we use the excuse that the Law is no longer valid. But know that we very much pick and choose our texts to follow.

Here are Scriptural verses that we have decided no longer apply:

Let’s take a look!

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. I Cor 14:36

The principle still applies, women are not allowed to give the homily, same as men who are not ordained. In this particular instance, it seems the women were trying to take the priests place, and St. Paul was ending that nonsense.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. ! Timothy 2:11

Same as above. The principle is still in place. The ordained give the homily.

Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior. Titus 2:9

The principle here still applies. In those places where there is indentured servitude, slaves are to show their Christian behavior. And it applies today as well for those who are employed by bosses, even bad bosses. Our Christian behavior should reflect the truth of Christ.

“No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord.” Deut 23:2

This is the Old Covenant, where God was separating His people out from among the other peoples that surrounded them. They were specifically commanded not to intermarry or mingle with surrounding peoples. God’s commands aren’t optional.

Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments. I Tim 2:9

This still applies. Women (and men) should be modest in their dress and appearance. Christians shouldn’t walk around with enough jewelry to make King Tut jealous.

Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Still applies. The day of rest has been transferred to the Lord’s Day, Sunday, but we are still called to avoid work on Sunday if possible. The Church still teaches this.

 

[zz912]

The culture has fallen so far, so fast, that now we are limited to looking for the ‘good’ in fornication, in broken families, in sodomy, and in every possible deviation from the good. I have to wonder just how successful that project can be in reforming the culture. We’re saying in effect, the culture has gone down the drain and us with it, but let’s look for the good in that.

This is so good it needed to be quoted again.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Let’s take a look!

The principle still applies, women are not allowed to give the homily, same as men who are not ordained. In this particular instance, it seems the women were trying to take the priests place, and St. Paul was ending that nonsense.

The principle here still applies. In those places where there is indentured servitude, slaves are to show their Christian behavior. And it applies today as well for those who are employed by bosses, even bad bosses. Our Christian behavior should reflect the truth of Christ.

This is the Old Covenant, where God was separating His people out from among the other peoples that surrounded them. They were specifically commanded not to intermarry or mingle with surrounding peoples. God’s commands aren’t optional.

This still applies. Women (and men) should be modest in their dress and appearance. Christians shouldn’t walk around with enough jewelry to make King Tut jealous.

Still applies. The day of rest has been transferred to the Lord’s Day, Sunday, but we are still called to avoid work on Sunday if possible. The Church still teaches this.

Thanks, also for the article. I don’t feel deprived as a woman if I cannot become a priest or preach a homily. I also believe that Christianity through the veneration of Mary has raised the status of women. This was a process that took hundreds of years but we ladies have everything to thank to them.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Let’s take a look!

The principle still applies, women are not allowed to give the homily, same as men who are not ordained. In this particular instance, it seems the women were trying to take the priests place, and St. Paul was ending that nonsense.

Same as above. The principle is still in place. The ordained give the homily.

The principle here still applies. In those places where there is indentured servitude, slaves are to show their Christian behavior. And it applies today as well for those who are employed by bosses, even bad bosses. Our Christian behavior should reflect the truth of Christ.

This is the Old Covenant, where God was separating His people out from among the other peoples that surrounded them. They were specifically commanded not to intermarry or mingle with surrounding peoples. God’s commands aren’t optional.

This still applies. Women (and men) should be modest in their dress and appearance. Christians shouldn’t walk around with enough jewelry to make King Tut jealous.

Still applies. The day of rest has been transferred to the Lord’s Day, Sunday, but we are still called to avoid work on Sunday if possible. The Church still teaches this.

Sorry. All nonsense. Every single example holds as something we have re-interpreted and adapted. Next time you see someone put to death for working on a Sunday, let us know.

 

[zz912]

Sorry. All nonsense. Every single example holds as something we have re-interpreted and adapted. Next time you see someone put to death for working on a Sunday, let us know.

The civil laws of the Old Covenant were ended with the creation of the New Covenant by Jesus. The moral law to rest on the Lord’s Day still holds. It’s there in the Bible that you are trying to argue about.