Stan "Tookie" Williams

[Fitz]

Utah Ken:

Clearly this person deserves punishment, but how to we explain to our children the difference between “American” executions and those of Iraq?

Are you serious? I can see many ways to explain why murder is wrong and unacceptable when done knowingly. It is wrong for Williams, and it wrong for the terrorists. We are a society of laws. The terrorists are not a government, carrying out the laws of a country. They are acting out of violence and hate.

 

[Utah_Ken]

Fitz:

Are you serious? I can see many ways to explain why murder is wrong and unacceptable when done knowingly. It is wrong for Williams, and it wrong for the terrorists. We are a society of laws. The terrorists are not a government, carrying out the laws of a country. They are acting out of violence and hate.

Alright, perhaps Iraq was too easy a comparison, how about the capital punishment in China, Cuba, Egypt. Are all of these lawless countries? And for that matter what of the laws? who arbitrates?

If killing is wrong for the terrorists, and Williams, then is it correct for the United States government, or the state of California?

 

[Utah_Ken]

Our goal is not just to proclaim a position, but to persuade Catholics and others to join us in working to end the use of the death penalty. We seek to help build a culture of life in which our nation will no longer try to teach that killing is wrong by killing those who kill.

This cycle of violence diminishes all of us.

USCCB

 

[Fitz]

Utah Ken:

If killing is wrong for the terrorists, and Williams, then is it correct for the United States government, or the state of California?

There is no comparison and I feel bad that you feel there is. I will not argue it. A legitimate government has the rule of law. Murder is unacceptable. Williams is going to pay the price. He had no regard for human life. The terrorists also have no regard for innocent life. When they kill it is for hate.

When someone like Williams faces the death penalty, he knowingly disregarded human life and the laws of his country. I do not like the death penalty and I feel that Williams should rot in jail for his whole human life for what he did. However, this is the law we have and as long as it is then he is subject to the laws. Have you contemplated that a very liberal state, with a very liberal court system came up with this. He is guilty beyond a resonable doubt, and you compare this to what our system of justice will do to him at midnight? There is no comparison.

 

[ReflectHim]

Traditional Ang:

Susie:

The man killed the people he killed because they were white.

I wonder if all those people protesting on his behalf would still be out there if he had been a WHITE MAN who had killed BLACK PEOPLE because they were BLACK…

He still tells the people in the “hood” not to inform on “Gangbangers” or to otherwise assist Law Enforcement in any way when they are trying to catch these people after one of their patented “Drive-by’s” has killed still more innocent children.

Before I came back to the Lord, I went to a “Repast” for a couple of girls some of his boys had shot. I have to wonder if that girl would be alive today if this man hadn’t founded his gang and taught young men to do crimes and murder instead of work for a living.

This man had 25 years of appeals and hearings, AFTER he was convicted in a fair trial where NONE of the facts leading to his conviction are in dispute.

While he was on Death Row, he was still able to order at least one hit on an informant or a “snitch”, and yes, this has been alledged in his case.

If we are going to have the Death Penalty, this is the type of man who needs to receive it. If he doesn’t, then we need to strike the Penalty from the books… But is Life in Solitary Confinement really less onerous?

That’s my best thinking on this case, looking at the Torah and trying to follow what it says.

In Christ, Michael

they weren’t white they were Asian. but i do still think he shouldn’t be granted clemency. you must pay for your crimes. but it has nothing to do with being black or white.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Arnold has spoken

**Schwarzenegger Denies Clemency for Williams
**By DAVID KRAVETS
Associated Press Writer
Dec 12 6:49 PM US/Eastern

SAN FRANCISCO - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger refused to block the execution early Tuesday of Stanley Tookie Williams, rejecting the notion that the founder of the murderous Crips gang had atoned for his crimes and found redemption on death row. With a federal court refusing to grant a reprieve, Williams, 51, was set to die by injection at San Quentin Prison just after midnight for murdering four people during two 1979 holdups.

Full Story

PF

 

[Utah_Ken]

Fitz:

There is no comparison and I feel bad that you feel there is. I will not argue it. A legitimate government has the rule of law. Murder is unacceptable. Williams is going to pay the price. He had no regard for human life. The terrorists also have no regard for innocent life. When they kill it is for hate.

When someone like Williams faces the death penalty, he knowingly disregarded human life and the laws of his country. I do not like the death penalty and I feel that Williams should rot in jail for his whole human life for what he did. However, this is the law we have and as long as it is then he is subject to the laws. Have you contemplated that a very liberal state, with a very liberal court system came up with this. He is guilty beyond a resonable doubt, and you compare this to what our system of justice will do to him at midnight? There is no comparison.

Don’t feel bad, The Death Penalty is objectively wrong, it is flawed. The laws that support it are also in error. His guilt in my mind is not in question, only the penalty. As for the laws, they are not without error, it was not that long ago in our country when laws supported racial discrimination, and turned it’s back on social justice.

I am not implying anything about your views or beliefs, but in general, I find it facinating that people can be so against the evil of abortion and yet still support the state sanctioned killing of the death penalty.

Again I quote the USCCB,

We seek to help build a culture of life in which our nation will no longer try to teach that killing is wrong by killing those who kill.

This cycle of violence diminishes all of us.

 

[Mom_of_one]

He ordered a hit while in prision? When? I have repeatedly heard that he has spoken out against gangs and written books for children regarding the evils of gang life.

I’m not defending the man at all, because there is also the issue of the refusing to help police and his refusal to admit his crimes. I just want to know if this hit was ordered after he supposedly reformed.

 

[pira114]

I’m just curious. For those of you who want to get rid of the death penalty, one question.

Would you not want the death penalty for him if it had been your children or spouses that were killed?

What about the monsters that abduct children, rape, tourture, and kill them?

I’m not judging any of you. What makes this country great is that we are all able to keep and speak our opinions freely. Just curious. Be honest.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Looks like the Supreme Court has turned down his appeal:

Supreme Court Denies Williams a Stay

WASHINGTON - Crips gang founder Stanley Tookie Williams lost a last-ditch Supreme Court appeal that sought to stop his execution early Tuesday in California.

Full Story

PF

 

[Utah_Ken]

pira114:

I’m just curious. For those of you who want to get rid of the death penalty, one question.

Would you not want the death penalty for him if it had been your children or spouses that were killed?

What about the monsters that abduct children, rape, tourture, and kill them?

I’m not judging any of you. What makes this country great is that we are all able to keep and speak our opinions freely. Just curious. Be honest.

The answer to your question is an anguished No. If my children were murdered I would not want the monster executed. Ultimately, the monster’s death would not bring my children back.

This is not to suggest that I would not want vengence, only that I draw the line at the sanctity of life.

I was reflecting this morning about the first murder, and the resulting penalty. (There was no execution).

And since you have posed a question, I would like to add to it, For those of you who want to keep the death penalty:

Do you also support abortion?

 

[Anglican77]

pira114:

I’m just curious. For those of you who want to get rid of the death penalty, one question.

Would you not want the death penalty for him if it had been your children or spouses that were killed?

What about the monsters that abduct children, rape, tourture, and kill them?

I’m not judging any of you. What makes this country great is that we are all able to keep and speak our opinions freely. Just curious. Be honest.

If it was my family member, I would rather the person get life imprisonment, without parole. I think it would make me feel better that there was some chance for that person to come to terms with their actions and repent. The problem I have with the death penalty is the system we have in place now, takes too long. If you’re going to allow it, do it. Don’t wait 20+ years to execute someone. If the evidence was so concrete that the court saw it fit to request the death penalty, then there really should be no need for countless appeals. I think it would serve as more of a deterrent if the process was sped up. While I oppose the death penalty, there are laws in place that allow it, and it should be used correctly.

 

[DreadVandal]

Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man; by man shall his blood be shed.”

Romans 13:4 Speaking of the government, “But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he (the authority) does not bear the sword in vain; for he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.”

I’ll take Scripture over the USCCB.

The Church supports the intrinsically just use of the death penalty as retribution for heineous crimes. The question of when the death penalty should be applied is one for laypersons in the appropriate civil offices. The Bishops of the Church have no authority whatsoever to call for a blanket ban on the death penalty. It is the equivalent of calling for a blanket ban on sales taxes or tarriffs on imports. Here is a link to an article by Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J. on the death penalty.

pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/reader/17.php3

Cardinal Dulles does an excellent job of showing that the Church’s current predilection for opposing the death penalty is not normative moral doctrine, but at best a prudential judgment that the laity are free to accept or reject. I don’t want to hijack the thread. So I will conclude by saying it was a good thing today that Tookie Williams was justly executed for his heineous crimes. May God have mercy on his soul.

 

[DreadVandal]

Utah Ken:

The answer to your question is an anguished No. If my children were murdered I would not want the monster executed. Ultimately, the monster’s death would not bring my children back.

This is not to suggest that I would not want vengence, only that I draw the line at the sanctity of life.

I was reflecting this morning about the first murder, and the resulting penalty. (There was no execution).

And since you have posed a question, I would like to add to it, For those of you who want to keep the death penalty:

Do you also support abortion?

Just two points:

1.) abortion and the death penalty are entirely different issues and should not be compared.

2.) It doesn’t matter what one emotionally wants to happen. Suppose my child were murdered. Yes, I would want the murderer executed. But, my emotions are not the deciding factor. The intrinsic justice of the execution and the good it does for society is what matters; regardless of how I feel.

 

[Ender]

Utah Ken:

Again I quote the USCCB,

We seek to help build a culture of life in which our nation will no longer try to teach that killing is wrong by killing those who kill.

This cycle of violence diminishes all of us.

I have read the USCCB document on the death penalty and … find it hard to put into words my feelings about it. The fact that only four bishops voted against it is truly depressing.

Start with “trying to teach that killing is wrong by killing those who kill.” I find this particular argument deceitful by deliberatly implying that all killing is morally equivalent. Let’s be clear about what Catholicism teaches here (and it is nothing like what the bishops imply in this statement): “The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing.” (CCC 2263) It is not killing per se that is proscribed but rather murder. You would really expect a bishop to be willing to make that distinction.

The argument about the “cycle of violence” is equally a distortion of the truth. The “violence” visited on Tookie was nothing more than is routinely done hundreds of times a day in every hospital in the country. Again, this “argument” attempts to equate the barbaric behavior of a vicious killer with the measured, orderly response of a democratically established judiciary that, after years of trials and appeals, finally carries out the punishment decreed by the state … a punishment explicitly allowed by the Church.

Ender

 

[DreadVandal]

Ender:

I have read the USCCB document on the death penalty and … find it hard to put into words my feelings about it. The fact that only four bishops voted against it is truly depressing.

Start with “trying to teach that killing is wrong by killing those who kill.” I find this particular argument deceitful by deliberatly implying that all killing is morally equivalent. Let’s be clear about what Catholicism teaches here (and it is nothing like what the bishops imply in this statement): “The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing.” (CCC 2263) It is not killing per se that is proscribed but rather murder. You would really expect a bishop to be willing to make that distinction.

The argument about the “cycle of violence” is equally a distortion of the truth. The “violence” visited on Tookie was nothing more than is routinely done hundreds of times a day in every hospital in the country. Again, this “argument” attempts to equate the barbaric behavior of a vicious killer with the measured, orderly response of a democratically established judiciary that, after years of trials and appeals, finally carries out the punishment decreed by the state … a punishment explicitly allowed by the Church.

Ender

I’ll give you my feelings on the USCCB statement, Balderdash!!! I make it a habit to ignore most things put out by the USCCB unless they are in accordance with the Catholic faith.

 

[Jennifer123]

Mom of one:

He ordered a hit while in prision? When? I have repeatedly heard that he has spoken out against gangs and written books for children regarding the evils of gang life.

I’m not defending the man at all, because there is also the issue of the refusing to help police and his refusal to admit his crimes. I just want to know if this hit was ordered after he supposedly reformed.

So many protesters were talking about compassion…where’s the compassion for the millions of humans ripped to shreds in the womb?

From what I’ve heard, Tookie ordered hits while in prison, raped other inmates, ran a drug ring, attacked a guard with acid or some other sort of chemical, among other allegations. Again, that’s only what I’ve heard, I tried to find documentation for you but couldn’t.

As far as I’m concerned he’s fully responsible for the deaths of thousands of young black men, as well as scores of innocent lives, through his founding of the crips gang, for which apparently he never explicitly apologized.

He had an unprecedented opportunity to renounce gang activity and leave this Earth with a positive message. Instead he maintained his innocence. Aren’t they all?

Personally I don’t believe in the death penalty per say, but it’s certainly not out of compassion for these people. I believe in the power of redemption, something I hoped Tookie asked for but my hunch is he missed his opportunity. May God have mercy.

 

[Andrew_11]

I think it is a travesty that Tookie Williams died. First of all it is quite possible he didnt even kill the people. His conviction was based entirly on eyewitness evidence, and if he would have at anypoint in time confessed to the killings, and apologize, it is quite possible he would be alive right now. Why would he deny the killings if confessing it would have only helped him. My second point is that it appears he has changed his life, writing childrens books discouraging gang activity.

Do you know why Tookie Williams died? He Died for Politics.Schwarzenegger, who has been criticized by conservatives in the Republican party for being to liberal on issues such as abortion, wanted to make ammends with the republican party. Tookie’s death was all about Schwarzenegger trying to gain face with republicans, and this is sick.

 

[Darrel]

gilliam:

I think it is pretty clear in the Catechism that the only reason to kill another human being is because that it the only way to protect someone else. I don’t see that in this case, so, no he should not be put to death.

Amen!

I would kill every last one of these people on death row with my bare hands if God so desired. The Church says he does not so I must obey. I don’t fully need to understand why. And if tookie could order killings from jail then that means he needed communication access removed not lethal injection.

I think conservative Catholics need to really pick apart the death penalty as an issue. Why support a half measure that does not work in the slightest to prevent more killing? It’s not liberal to see this obvious truth. It’s either Iran or nothing. If we are going to do it then do it right. Since we can’t be Iran lets just not do it. Whats the problem with this? Do we base our opinion on Republican ideology or the Church of Christ?

-D

 

[DreadVandal]

Andrew_11:

I think it is a travesty that Tookie Williams died. First of all it is quite possible he didnt even kill the people. His conviction was based entirly on eyewitness evidence, and if he would have at anypoint in time confessed to the killings, and apologize, it is quite possible he would be alive right now. Why would he deny the killings if confessing it would have only helped him. My second point is that it appears he has changed his life, writing childrens books discouraging gang activity.

Do you know why Tookie Williams died? He Died for Politics.Schwarzenegger, who has been criticized by conservatives in the Republican party for being to liberal on issues such as abortion, wanted to make ammends with the republican party. Tookie’s death was all about Schwarzenegger trying to gain face with republicans, and this is sick.

Hey Andrew, didn’t you know everyone on death row is innocent?

I wonder how many dozens, if not hundreds, of people he actually did have killed while he was groovin’ along as head of the crips.