Stan "Tookie" Williams

[DreadVandal]

Darrel:

Amen!

I would kill every last one of these people on death row with my bare hands if God so desired. The Church says he does not so I must obey. I don’t fully need to understand why. And if tookie could order killings from jail then that means he needed communication access removed not lethal injection.

I think conservative Catholics need to really pick apart the death penalty as an issue. Why support a half measure that does not work in the slightest to prevent more killing? It’s not liberal to see this obvious truth. It’s either Iran or nothing. If we are going to do it then do it right. Since we can’t be Iran lets just not do it. Whats the problem with this? Do we base our opinion on Republican ideology or the Church of Christ?

-D

Darell, the primary purpose of the death penalty is not to prevent killing. Nor is it to defend society (the Catechism cannot be teaching on this point otherwise it would contradict 2000 years of Catholic doctrine). The primary purpose of the death penalty is strict retributive justice. God instituted secular government and the death penalty in order to show how serious he is about murder. Murder is not only an attack on a human being, its striking out at the image of God himself. That is why God instituted the death penalty and that is why the Church has no authority to tell the state it can’t use it in the case of 1st degree murder. And guess what? the Vatican knows this. Pope John Paul II, the Vatican generally, and most Bishops have made the decision that it would be prudent to oppose the death penalty in nearly all cases; if not all cases. But we are not obliged to follow their view since they are not teaching on matters of faith and morals. They can’t be teaching on matters of faith and morals. If they were, then they would be contradicting Catholic teaching, which is impossible.

 

[Fitz]

Andrew_11:

Tookie’s death was all about Schwarzenegger trying to gain face with republicans, and this is sick.

I respectfully disagree. Arnold was not judge and jury in this case. He was found guilty by a judge and jury. Justice was served.

 

[otm]

Utah Ken:

California Gov. Schwarzenegger rejects Stanley Tookie Williams’ request. The request to the governor was Williams’ last hope for being spared of execution, which is set to happen Tuesday morning at 12:01 a.m.

Clearly this person deserves punishment, but how to we explain to our children the difference between “American” executions and those of Iraq?

Ours take longer.

 

[Gnosis]

I think Jesus was fundamentally opposed to the pure blood lust that fuels the support of capital punishment. Somehow we feel that shedding the blood of a guilty human being will appease our own anger, or some how ease the sense of injustice when an innocent life is taken. I would like to think that followers of Christ are called to a higher mentality, where we do not see justice as the exaction of revenge, where we do not draw comfort from the destruction of another human being. Do not forget that we are called to love those who do us harm. Jesus also said that “He who is forgiven little forgives little, but he who is shown much mercy shows great mercy.”

Think of the heart of the Christian message, that of grace, of prizing compassion over justice, of giving people what they don’t deserve, of giving them more than they deserve. Keep him in prison to protect society, to serve justice. But to kill him is an unneccessary extension of “justice”, its to take an “eye for an eye”. Its to show him no mercy, its to allow our hearts to freeze over in hatred and revenge in response to the hatred he himself has shown.

 

[Darrel]

DreadVandal:

God instituted secular government and the death penalty in order to show how serious he is about murder.

Can you prove this in scripture that applies to the new covenant or the old? Last time I checked God instituted a covenant with the people of Israel. God then offered his own son as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins in the new covenant. God laid upon him the iniquity of us all. And how was Christ sacrificed? By means of capitol punishment.

You say God wants capitol punishment? Why did Jesus say let he among you without sin cast the first stone? Is stoning capitol punishment in ancient Israel? DreadVandal, that is how God showed us how serious he is about murder. We can’t embrace Mosaic law in one issue and mercy in the next.

I supported the death penalty my entire Christian life before I embraced the CC. It’s a matter of simple obediance to the truth and the Church.

-D

 

[DreadVandal]

Darrel:

Can you prove this in scripture that applies to the new covenant or the old? Last time I checked God instituted a covenant with the people of Israel. God then offered his own son as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins in the new covenant. God laid upon him the iniquity of us all. And how was Christ sacrificed? By means of capitol punishment.

You say God wants capitol punishment? Why did Jesus say let he among you without sin cast the first stone? Is stoning capitol punishment in ancient Israel? DreadVandal, that is how God showed us how serious he is about murder. We can’t embrace Mosaic law in one issue and mercy in the next.

I supported the death penalty my entire Christian life before I embraced the CC. It’s a matter of simple obediance to the truth and the Church.

-D

First of all, the Church does not teach that the death penalty is wrong. Secondly, the death penalty was instituted in the covenant with Noah. It is a part of natural law, not the old covenant specifically. And I have already given the passage in Romans that reaffirms the right of the state to execute vengeance. The Church has always supported the death penalty and nearly every saint and father of the Church has supported the death penalty. Jesus did not oppose it in principle.

 

[Darrel]

DreadVandal:

First of all, the Church does not teach that the death penalty is wrong. Secondly, the death penalty was instituted in the covenant with Noah. It is a part of natural law, not the old covenant specifically. And I have already given the passage in Romans that reaffirms the right of the state to execute vengeance. The Church has always supported the death penalty and nearly every saint and father of the Church has supported the death penalty. Jesus did not oppose it in principle.

Ok,

So the vicar of Christ is wrong about this according to you? It’s right to have mercy if we have the means available to have mercy. So answer this. What good comes from the death penalty in the year 2005 in the United States? I see this issue as nothing more then a free pass for people to judge hate and kill.

When I used to defend the death penalty I know thats what I felt. Whenever I read people defending the death penalty there is an underlying tone that just screams [Die You Murdering Scumbag !!!]

That in reality is what this issue is all about at it’s root. Do you realy think that killing this guy was a holy act? If not then what is it? If Christ were in the room would he have ordered the execution or pushed the button for the injections?

-D

 

[Utah_Ken]

DreadVandal:

Darell, the primary purpose of the death penalty is not to prevent killing. Nor is it to defend society (the Catechism cannot be teaching on this point otherwise it would contradict 2000 years of Catholic doctrine). The primary purpose of the death penalty is strict retributive justice. God instituted secular government and the death penalty in order to show how serious he is about murder. Murder is not only an attack on a human being, its striking out at the image of God himself. That is why God instituted the death penalty and that is why the Church has no authority to tell the state it can’t use it in the case of 1st degree murder. And guess what? the Vatican knows this. Pope John Paul II, the Vatican generally, and most Bishops have made the decision that it would be prudent to oppose the death penalty in nearly all cases; if not all cases. But we are not obliged to follow their view since they are not teaching on matters of faith and morals. They can’t be teaching on matters of faith and morals. If they were, then they would be contradicting Catholic teaching, which is impossible.

I forget… What method of execution did God use in the case of Cain v Abel?

As I recall it was murder, there was clear guilt, even a confession…

 

[Darrel]

Utah Ken:

I forget… What method of execution did God use in the case of Cain v Abel?

As I recall it was murder, there was clear guilt, even a confession…

Genesis 4:9-17

9And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?

10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

11And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;

12When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

13And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

15And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

-D

 

[BlindSheep]

I don’t support the death penalty, unless it’s absolutely necessary to protect innocent people. However, when it’s perfectly legal to brutally slaughter innocent unborn children in this country, I’m not going to put a lot of effort into saving a murderer.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

DreadVandal:

First of all, the Church does not teach that the death penalty is wrong. Secondly, the death penalty was instituted in the covenant with Noah. It is a part of natural law, not the old covenant specifically. And I have already given the passage in Romans that reaffirms the right of the state to execute vengeance. The Church has always supported the death penalty and nearly every saint and father of the Church has supported the death penalty. Jesus did not oppose it in principle.

The only time that the death penalty can be used lawfully is when a nation or society does not have the means to protect its people. I do not see this as the case in the USA, where we do have the resource to build prisons and a stable society to keep them in there for life. We should not be playing God, especially not with all of the cases which have been proven false after a person has been executed due to new evidence. As good as our system is, it isn’t full proof, and one person who gets put on death row wrongly and is executed wrongly is one too many.

 

[wabrams]

DreadVandal:

First of all, the Church does not teach that the death penalty is wrong. Secondly, the death penalty was instituted in the covenant with Noah. It is a part of natural law, not the old covenant specifically. And I have already given the passage in Romans that reaffirms the right of the state to execute vengeance. The Church has always supported the death penalty and nearly every saint and father of the Church has supported the death penalty. Jesus did not oppose it in principle.

Peter, 3:9: “Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.”

 

[Ender]

Gnosis:

I think Jesus was fundamentally opposed to the pure blood lust that fuels the support of capital punishment. Somehow we feel that shedding the blood of a guilty human being will appease our own anger, or some how ease the sense of injustice when an innocent life is taken. I would like to think that followers of Christ are called to a higher mentality, where we do not see justice as the exaction of revenge, where we do not draw comfort from the destruction of another human being.

Attributing base motives to people who support the death penalty is an uncharitable argument and is no defense for your position.

(CCC 2266) “Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense.” It is certainly arguable that the death penalty is proportionate to the offense in this case. Also note that the primary aim of punishment is not protecting the public from possible future offenses but the redress of the disorder from the actual offense.

The position that Williams should have been spared the death penalty because he had converted and become a changed man is also unconvincing. His conversion (if it in fact happened) does not repay the dept or “redress the disorder”. Proportionate punishment is still necessary: “When the stain is removed, the wound of sin is healed as regards the will. But punishment is still requisite in order that the other powers of the soul be healed. Moreover, punishment is requisite in order to restore the equality of justice, and to remove the scandal given to others, so that those who were scandalized by the sin may be edified by the punishment.” (Thomas Aquinas)

Ender

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Ender:

Attributing base motives to people who support the death penalty is an uncharitable argument and is no defense for your position.

(CCC 2266) “Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense.” It is certainly arguable that the death penalty is proportionate to the offense in this case. Also note that the primary aim of punishment is not protecting the public from possible future offenses but the redress of the disorder from the actual offense.

The position that Williams should have been spared the death penalty because he had converted and become a changed man is also unconvincing. His conversion (if it in fact happened) does not repay the dept or “redress the disorder”. Proportionate punishment is still necessary: “When the stain is removed, the wound of sin is healed as regards the will. But punishment is still requisite in order that the other powers of the soul be healed. Moreover, punishment is requisite in order to restore the equality of justice, and to remove the scandal given to others, so that those who were scandalized by the sin may be edified by the punishment.” (Thomas Aquinas)

Ender

Whether we are discussing Williams or not, our society (the US), has the means to build prisons and keep the worst criminals in there for life. Therefore, they would not be a threat to society. It doesn’t even matter if he converted when discussing this issue, I hope he did, but one person who is executed because someone planted evidence or because someone lied in court is one too many (I am not defending Williams, because I personally think he didn’t, but that’s not really the whole point).

 

[PLAL]

Drew Mariani is talking about this on his radio show right now. Dr. Mark Miravalle will be on the show to discuss this shortly. Click on “Catholic Radio” on my signature line to listen to the show.

 

[Jennifer123]

Andrew_11:

First of all it is quite possible he didnt even kill the people. His conviction was based entirly on eyewitness evidence,

Not true. Please see:
crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie5.htm
usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/23480

The 9th Circuit Court turned down a request to review the case, and the Supreme Court refused to hear any new evidence. Hardly conservative courts. To me, this is just a silly accusation, and those who fall for it are naive.
I don’t necessarily think he should have been executed, but he was a danger to society even in prison. If he was so reformed, why didn’t he turn state’s evidence against other gang members and try to save some lives? Oh that’s right, he told members not to cooperate with police.

Yes, he’s a saint. While I don’t feel compassion for the man, I do sincerely hope he’s not where everyone else thinks he is.

 

[DreadVandal]

Darrel:

Ok,

So the vicar of Christ is wrong about this according to you? It’s right to have mercy if we have the means available to have mercy. So answer this. What good comes from the death penalty in the year 2005 in the United States? I see this issue as nothing more then a free pass for people to judge hate and kill.

When I used to defend the death penalty I know thats what I felt. Whenever I read people defending the death penalty there is an underlying tone that just screams [Die You Murdering Scumbag !!!]

That in reality is what this issue is all about at it’s root. Do you realy think that killing this guy was a holy act? If not then what is it? If Christ were in the room would he have ordered the execution or pushed the button for the injections?

-D

The objective good that comes from this execution is justice. Also, the willingness to use the death penalty shows that we consider life sacred. If anything, the opposite of what is usually argued by anti-death penalty folks is true. Historically, opposition to the death penalty has emerged out of a lessening of respect for the sacred dignity of human life. Since God instituted the death penalty for murder, who are we to say he was wrong?

I will not address the various ad hominems in your post.

 

[DreadVandal]

Utah Ken:

I forget… What method of execution did God use in the case of Cain v Abel?

As I recall it was murder, there was clear guilt, even a confession…

In Genesis, the death penalty was not instituted until after the flood. Nevertheless, God is free to make exceptions and we are free to make exceptions based on circumstances. That is why the death penalty is not automatically applied in all murder cases.

 

[DreadVandal]

BlindSheep:

I don’t support the death penalty, unless it’s absolutely necessary to protect innocent people. However, when it’s perfectly legal to brutally slaughter innocent unborn children in this country, I’m not going to put a lot of effort into saving a murderer.

Its no accident that opposition to the death penalty and support for abortion rights have tended to go together. Avery Dulles points out that historically, opposition to the death penalty has its roots in a rejection of the immortality of the soul and traditional Christianity.

 

[DreadVandal]

Semper Fi:

The only time that the death penalty can be used lawfully is when a nation or society does not have the means to protect its people. I do not see this as the case in the USA, where we do have the resource to build prisons and a stable society to keep them in there for life. We should not be playing God, especially not with all of the cases which have been proven false after a person has been executed due to new evidence. As good as our system is, it isn’t full proof, and one person who gets put on death row wrongly and is executed wrongly is one too many.

That is the current position articulated in the current Catechism but it is arguably opposed to historic Catholic teaching.