OK, what would you like to call the process by which we are cleansed from every impurity (all selfishness, all disorederd desires, every stain of sin) so that we can enter heaven under the prescription of Rev 21:27 - and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it [heaven], but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Thanks for the correction. I will have to re-listen.Hello, my sister!
Actually, he said the opposite.
“Even if we could find places, as we can, in the Bible where the term fire is used of purification, is that how it’s being used here?”
Here is what he said in his 8 minute rebuttal:
“We can find other passages in the Bible where fire has something to do with purification; but we have not heard anything from Mr. Staples where this text mentions purification.”
And he pointed out that the passages that do deal with fire as a purifying agent pertain to a purification taking place in this life, and not postmortem:
“And so, for example, we saw Revelation 3 and Hebrews 12; but these are talking about sufferings and purifications in this life. They have nothing to do with the idea that before you enter into the presence of God, there’s going to have to be a postmortem cleansing or purification of your soul, before you can experience that”
And of Romans 8:17:
“This is talking about now. This isn’t talking about some postmortem experience of purification of the soul.”
But in his closing statement:
“Mr. Staples has failed to show us any purification in this text. He’s gone to all sorts of other texts, but he has not been able to demonstrate that any of those texts can be drawn back to First Corinthians Chapter 3, that overthrows the immediate context. Mr. Staples has failed to provide any contextually based connection between any of those other texts that he cited, most of which had to do with suffering in this life”
Because he said “most” in this last statement, it implies there was at least one Biblical passage he had in mind where he does see a postmortem purification as a possibility. I am guessing that he would say that he didn’t intend to imply this, and that he would be comfortable with replacing “most” with “all” in what he said. But I would wait for clarification before I asserted anything on this.
May the LORD be with you!
In Christ,
Pete
I believe in the blessed Trinity as defined in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. Now what?
I’ve found one Protestant to be quite charitable–a gentleman and a scholar–JonNC (who, sadly, has not joined us here).
It is called the blood of Christ on the cross. Wonder why Satan accuses us day and night and before God (Rev. 12:10). Come to think of it, why did he present himself before God (even carried a conversation) amongst the “sons of God” (Job 1:6). Are we going to appeal to imagery? Seems he’s the most “unclean” of all.
Well, look at it this way than, it is the Blood of Christ that washes us through purgatory, or rather in purgatory.
Indeed. In fact, all Christians believe in Purgatory–some sort of transition from our “sinful, earthly” state to a “perfected, completely-pure” state that can properly come face to face with the Beatific Vision–they just don’t have a word for this transition, nor a theology that explains how this happens.
You’ll get no quarrel from Catholics on that point. The issue is when and how that happens. I don’t believe you believe that you are perfect now, or at death. So that perfection must occur at some point.
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon The dragon and his angels waged war,
Job1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Wow…I have never looked at it that way. That is a pretty good way of looking at it.
I don’t buy it. Does the Lord have a separate meeting place? If Satan accuses us day and night before the Lord, where does the Lord reside? It is very clear that the “accusing” was happening BEFORE he was cast down (it is past tense), thus this must be another event and not the Fall (which you seem to be alluding to), thus there is no contradiction.
Amen!
It would sem that you are confusing a angelic being (Satan) with a material being (man) here when you make this analagy, This compairson does not make theological sense.
Maybe I’m missing something in what you wrote here. The point is that Satan is in the presence of God in Job 1. Revelation 12 indicates that he accuses us before God’s presence BEFORE being cast out of “heaven” (vs.7). In both cases, the most unclean of all is before God. I’m not confusing anything.
So are you saying that there is no purification for our sins? Is not Christ’s death on the Cross a purification for our sins? If His death on the Cross served as a purification for our sins, than purgatory dervies from that Sacrifice. Without his Sacrifice…, no purification. No purification…, no purgatory.
So your position is, Satan is in heaven. Again, I’ve never heard a Christian espouse this idea.
Well, here’s a “bible Christian” pastor and PhD who strongly believes in purgatory. If there is no purgatory, then aren’t you in effect claiming that you are perfect? If not, where does scripture claim that you are washed automatically each time you sin, or even as you are sinning?
We debate all salvation topics … using all of scripture. Catholics are multifaceted, multi-talented apologists … and are still sky high from the SAINT’s victory.
Because many Protestant seldom read/know their OT. Too much ‘legalism’ for them to consider. They tend to stick to Pauline themes … at least the parts they feel agree with their Faith w/o works paradigms.
