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cfrancis
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean by “nature of Christ’s sacrifice” but I believe the issue is the ***application ***of His sacrifice.
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Redrum
Guest
I’m fine with that.
R
Redrum
Guest
You are correct, it is about the state of one’s soul, but as for us we are 100% dependant upon Christs sacrifice in regard to the very state of our souls.
If Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.”
I have difficulty pulling this from Scripture as 1) an actual place or phase and 2) as a necessary process. Scripture seems to state pretty clearly in the Gospel (Good News not Pretty Good News) that Christ did the suffering here.
R
Redrum
Guest
So my first point about this debate is only that both sides agree or believe that in some sense we are justified by the rightousness of Christ…
Now we ask (or argue) but in what sense?
Now we ask (or argue) but in what sense?
C
cfrancis
Guest
Scripture tells us we Christians will suffer, for our belief (up to and including martyrdom) and for our sin (Ananias and Sapphira come to mind).
What do yo believe is the result of our individual sin?
B
Byzman
Guest
See, I think there is a mistaken connotation with purgatory. When we immediately hear the word purgatory, we think of a place where our souls our at waiting after death. Well, there is something wrong with that. Purgatory is here and now. It is also now and then. So too is Christ’s Sacrifice…not only did this event take place in the past, but it is here and now, now and then. It is all centered on Christ’s Sacrifice. We are only able to be purged, now and then, because of that Sacrifice.
B
Byzman
Guest
Not imputed rightousness.
D
DCNBILL
Guest
I Very much understand your difficulty as you are looking on it from the standpiont of one paying a price rather than Christ but that is not the Catholic teaching. There have been numerous previous posts which have links to the teaching of purgatory by the Church.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Properly speaking, you are quite correct! As the Catechism states:1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the electThe way I paraphrased it earlier was that Purgatory is identified with a “particular occasion of sanctification after death.” So while the label “Purgatory” refers to that final stage of sanctification, any sanctification we undergo on this earth by God’s discipline (Hb 12) or suffering with Him are the earlier stages on that same road.
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Pete_Holter
Guest
I brought this up earlier, but I want to elaborate on it. Sorry for the repetitiveness and wordiness of this post. Here is Dr. White:
“So we have one group who build on the one foundation but with different quality materials. Now obviously the different terms, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and straw, are all figures of speech, they’re all metaphors. Christian leaders are not known for having an abundance of gold, silver, or precious stones, let alone is the building being done here a literal activity either. These are terms referring as Paul himself puts it to the quality of each man’s work. Some labor selflessly, and in obscurity with motivations pure and honorable, while others have mixed motivations tinged to a lesser or greater degree by selfishness and vainglory. During this lifetime we cannot necessarily know which Christian leaders, even within the bounds of orthodox teaching and practice, are doing what they do with motivations that are pleasing to God. But Paul is reminding us that such will not always be the case. God will reward those who have labored diligently for His glory in that Day when all the secrets of men’s hearts will be revealed… the works that were not done to God’s glory are destroyed.”
He also makes the point in his conclusion that there’s nothing about sin in this passage:
“Mr. Staples has failed to show us any purification in this text. He’s gone to all sorts of other texts, but he has not been able to demonstrate that any of those texts can be drawn back to First Corinthians Chapter 3, that overthrows the immediate context. Mr. Staples has failed to provide any contextually based connection between any of those other texts that he cited, most of which had to do with suffering in this life, especially Romans 8:17 which in the very next verse says it’s talking about the sufferings in this life.
“Mr. Staples has failed to show us where the actions of fire in this text are purifying. He’s asserted it, but he hasn’t been able to show us where the actual words mean that. He’s assumed it based upon his external authorities.
“Mr. Staples has failed to show us that Paul has moved his discussion to the cleansing of sins before entrance into God’s presence. He has not been able to show us sins or anything like that in this particular text.
But are not “mixed motivations tinged to a lesser or greater degree by selfishness and vainglory” sinful? Are not works that are “not done to God’s glory” sinful? He says that we can’t know whether Christians “are doing what they do with motivations that are pleasing to God.” Doesn’t this imply that the “mixed” motivations are displeasing to God, i.e., sinful? And isn’t it the mixed motivations of “wood, hay, and straw” themselves that are “burned up” (1 Corinthians 3:15)?
The disclosing Day makes the “work” manifest through the revealing fire (1 Corinthians 3:13), and Paul tells us that it is “the purposes of the heart” that are thereby disclosed (1 Corinthians 4:5). The Day discloses the works, i.e., they are hidden to man before then. These hidden motives are so deeply laid within us that we can only know them in part, and we wait for the Day to disclose them even to ourselves! In agreement with this, Dr. White says that our motives are what are revealed by the fire. But if the purposes of the heart are revealed by the fire, then the bad purposes revealed to be wood, hay, and straw are exactly what will be burned up by that same fire.
The sinful “purposes of the heart” are being burned up so that we might have that pureness of heart without which we cannot see God (cf. Matthew 5:8; Hebrews 12:14). It is out of the abundance of the heart that our mouth speaks (cf. Luke 6:45). “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality…” (Mark 7:21). This holiness that we need, this pureness of heart: this is exactly what is being established by the fire through the destruction and consumption of the wood, hay, and straw. The burning up of these items, of these sins, is the purification. James says that these “are all figures of speech, they’re all metaphors… let alone is the building being done here a literal activity either.” And yet he incongruously demands that there be words that denote the literal activity of purification when it is the destructive activity of the fire applied to the metaphorical materials of wood, hay, and straw that conveys this meaning.
The “mixed motivations tinged to a lesser or greater degree by selfishness and vainglory” will be disclosed “when all the secrets of men’s hearts will be revealed…” and “the works that were not done to God’s glory are destroyed.” Now, the fact that we do not know what works are being done out of either selfless or selfish motives attests to the objective value of the outward manifestation of these works. There’s nothing wrong with them, objectively speaking. The only thing that’s going to be “revealed” by the fire, and consequently the only thing that’s going to be “burned up” by the fire, is the internal, subjective disposition with which those works were carried out. This is nothing other than an internal purification of “the purposes of the heart” which have been formed by the way we’ve lived our lives.
“So we have one group who build on the one foundation but with different quality materials. Now obviously the different terms, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and straw, are all figures of speech, they’re all metaphors. Christian leaders are not known for having an abundance of gold, silver, or precious stones, let alone is the building being done here a literal activity either. These are terms referring as Paul himself puts it to the quality of each man’s work. Some labor selflessly, and in obscurity with motivations pure and honorable, while others have mixed motivations tinged to a lesser or greater degree by selfishness and vainglory. During this lifetime we cannot necessarily know which Christian leaders, even within the bounds of orthodox teaching and practice, are doing what they do with motivations that are pleasing to God. But Paul is reminding us that such will not always be the case. God will reward those who have labored diligently for His glory in that Day when all the secrets of men’s hearts will be revealed… the works that were not done to God’s glory are destroyed.”
He also makes the point in his conclusion that there’s nothing about sin in this passage:
“Mr. Staples has failed to show us any purification in this text. He’s gone to all sorts of other texts, but he has not been able to demonstrate that any of those texts can be drawn back to First Corinthians Chapter 3, that overthrows the immediate context. Mr. Staples has failed to provide any contextually based connection between any of those other texts that he cited, most of which had to do with suffering in this life, especially Romans 8:17 which in the very next verse says it’s talking about the sufferings in this life.
“Mr. Staples has failed to show us where the actions of fire in this text are purifying. He’s asserted it, but he hasn’t been able to show us where the actual words mean that. He’s assumed it based upon his external authorities.
“Mr. Staples has failed to show us that Paul has moved his discussion to the cleansing of sins before entrance into God’s presence. He has not been able to show us sins or anything like that in this particular text.
But are not “mixed motivations tinged to a lesser or greater degree by selfishness and vainglory” sinful? Are not works that are “not done to God’s glory” sinful? He says that we can’t know whether Christians “are doing what they do with motivations that are pleasing to God.” Doesn’t this imply that the “mixed” motivations are displeasing to God, i.e., sinful? And isn’t it the mixed motivations of “wood, hay, and straw” themselves that are “burned up” (1 Corinthians 3:15)?
The disclosing Day makes the “work” manifest through the revealing fire (1 Corinthians 3:13), and Paul tells us that it is “the purposes of the heart” that are thereby disclosed (1 Corinthians 4:5). The Day discloses the works, i.e., they are hidden to man before then. These hidden motives are so deeply laid within us that we can only know them in part, and we wait for the Day to disclose them even to ourselves! In agreement with this, Dr. White says that our motives are what are revealed by the fire. But if the purposes of the heart are revealed by the fire, then the bad purposes revealed to be wood, hay, and straw are exactly what will be burned up by that same fire.
The sinful “purposes of the heart” are being burned up so that we might have that pureness of heart without which we cannot see God (cf. Matthew 5:8; Hebrews 12:14). It is out of the abundance of the heart that our mouth speaks (cf. Luke 6:45). “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality…” (Mark 7:21). This holiness that we need, this pureness of heart: this is exactly what is being established by the fire through the destruction and consumption of the wood, hay, and straw. The burning up of these items, of these sins, is the purification. James says that these “are all figures of speech, they’re all metaphors… let alone is the building being done here a literal activity either.” And yet he incongruously demands that there be words that denote the literal activity of purification when it is the destructive activity of the fire applied to the metaphorical materials of wood, hay, and straw that conveys this meaning.
The “mixed motivations tinged to a lesser or greater degree by selfishness and vainglory” will be disclosed “when all the secrets of men’s hearts will be revealed…” and “the works that were not done to God’s glory are destroyed.” Now, the fact that we do not know what works are being done out of either selfless or selfish motives attests to the objective value of the outward manifestation of these works. There’s nothing wrong with them, objectively speaking. The only thing that’s going to be “revealed” by the fire, and consequently the only thing that’s going to be “burned up” by the fire, is the internal, subjective disposition with which those works were carried out. This is nothing other than an internal purification of “the purposes of the heart” which have been formed by the way we’ve lived our lives.
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Pete_Holter
Guest
Paul gives us a similar list of juxtaposed materials in his letter to Timothy:
“Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
“So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart” (2 Timothy 2:20-22).
The wood and clay of “youthful passions” need to be cleansed from us so that we can “call on the Lord from a pure heart.” What Paul exhorts us to do actively in this life through moral striving in the grace of God (cf. 2 Timothy 2:20-22), God Himself completes in us after we die through our passive participation in His burning fire of judgment (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15).
In Christ,
Pete
“Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
“So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart” (2 Timothy 2:20-22).
The wood and clay of “youthful passions” need to be cleansed from us so that we can “call on the Lord from a pure heart.” What Paul exhorts us to do actively in this life through moral striving in the grace of God (cf. 2 Timothy 2:20-22), God Himself completes in us after we die through our passive participation in His burning fire of judgment (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15).
In Christ,
Pete
po18guy
Well-known member
I didn’t think that you would dare use the “H” word, but, now that you’ve opened the door…
So, does that mean he’s wrong on purgatory? How does such a theological misfit arrive at purgatory using only the bible?
po18guy
Well-known member
Isn’t this rather an example of Peter holding their sins bound? Both Ananias and Sapphira sinned against the Holy Spirit by lying to Him and paid with their lives. It was not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but rather the sin of lying by withholding from their promise to the early Church.
po18guy
Well-known member
And, more specifically, how does this man, with his level of education, reach both proper and improper conclusions from scripture alone - from the exact bible which you hold? The answer is private interpretation, prohibited in the selfsame bible, and which accounts for all theological error in Christendom. Private interpretation relies on the guidance of any passing spirit, as the leading of the Holy Spirit in teaching was granted only to the Apostles. When you look for it, it is amazing just how much of Christ’s teaching was directed solely at the Twelve.
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Byzman
Guest
That is definitely a good verse to go along with the 1 Corinthians 3 text. It adds more light to what we Catholics have been saying for a long time.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Tim tried to make this point when James demanded to know which verb in the passage meant anything like “purification.” You’ll see I thought the same thing was significant back in post 39. Both your posts were very good and well done.
R
Redrum
Guest
The problem that I have is that If you read 1 Corinthians 3, you will never find purgatory in there unless you literally bring the idea to the text. That’s why I don’t believe in it. Keep in mind belief is a matter of the intellect, and not the will so there is no need to become angry with me.
If Purgatory were some where in the Bible then I think it would be taught a little better than having to reach, and reach, and reach into some metaphorical language about building genuine works upon Christ. I think it would say, “you won’t go immediately to heaven but you will be burned for a while and purged of your remaining sin…etc”. Instead we are sitting here searching for some clue that points to this Purgatory.
If you’re going to refer to Paul, he does say that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”.
Now I do have two questions, 1) where do you guys look stuff up to determine THE exact and current RCC stance on things. I’ve seen a lot of different references on here and since Roman Catholics are left with no choice but to accept whatever the church tells you, I just assume we look there and there only.
If Purgatory were some where in the Bible then I think it would be taught a little better than having to reach, and reach, and reach into some metaphorical language about building genuine works upon Christ. I think it would say, “you won’t go immediately to heaven but you will be burned for a while and purged of your remaining sin…etc”. Instead we are sitting here searching for some clue that points to this Purgatory.
If you’re going to refer to Paul, he does say that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”.
Now I do have two questions, 1) where do you guys look stuff up to determine THE exact and current RCC stance on things. I’ve seen a lot of different references on here and since Roman Catholics are left with no choice but to accept whatever the church tells you, I just assume we look there and there only.
- Is this evil or sin stuck to us after we die like an actual thing like mud, or is it a privation, an absence of good? In other words are we missing perfect goodness or do we need to be cleansed to reveal this underlying perfect goodness that is being hidden by some evil moral slime that floats around the universe?
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Redrum
Guest
I would say the same way the US government reaches entirely different conclusions on the same heralded document. Is the answer a dictatorship? Institutions are run by men. Given enough time men will corrupt anything.
God know the church is a mixed body of wheat and tares, and it always will be until he separates them.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Indeed. And private interpretation is the inspiration for the obscene 40,000 denominations in Christendom, each teaching different understandings of Scripture, each claiming guidance by the Holy Spirit.
R
Redrum
Guest
I think you should increase your number, because if you think that any two men will die with the exact same doctrine or understanding or feelings or core convictions, you are making quite an amazing assumption.
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