Star Trek Beyond - Farewell to a Franchise

[Vanny]

This is just another example of the liberal agenda being pushed into our entertainment. However, I’d still see it. The Walking Dead has some gay characters, I don’t agree with it but I still watch the show.

Yes same here. I was a Stargate fan and the 3rd series, Universe, had a gay character(Camille Wray) although they handled it well, and I still watched the show, it could have been left out in my opinion.

 

[Vanny]

I’m not really enamored of the JJ Abrams take on ST, much of it seems to be a case of “let’s change something just a little, not enough to make a big difference, but just enough to put my Own Stamp On It”.

Star Trek has included interesting twists on traditional heterosexuality before, not just the “Trills who were man and woman in a prior life meeting up as two women” episode of DS9, but I recall on TNG, Riker once has an affair with an alien from a culture in which any romantic relationships are considered “unnatural”.

Also, the Enterprise series (though IMO the franchise jumped the shark with that one already), had one episode feature aliens who actually have 3 sexes, traditional “male” and “female” and a “congenitor” that plays some kind of role in the conception of children, and are treated very shabbily, essentially as slaves who don’t even have any right to parent the children they help conceive. Troy keeps calling the congenitor “she” and though no one corrects him, his attempts to help “her” end tragically and it did seem the message was supposed to be “he shouldn’t have gotten involved in something he didn’t understand, this is why the Prime Directive exists”.

Although even that storyline seemed to me a ripoff of the Alien Nation concept of a 3rd sex, the “binnaum”, whose function is to “catalyze” the conception of an embryo by having what appears to be intercourse with the female, but the “binn” doesn’t actually contribute to the offspring’s genetic makeup, but apparently whatever chemicals wind up in the female’s reproductive system are essential for conception to occur when the actual male later has intercourse with the female. (Not to mention the idea of a quasi-male pregnancy, in which the female transfers the fetus early on in pregnancy to a kangaroo-like pouch in the male’s abdomen.)

Anyway, I think there could have been other more creative ways to address homosexuality in the series than “let’s make Sulu gay because the guy who played him on the original show is gay”. AFAIK there is a scene in the “Eden” episode that makes it fairly obvious Sulu is straight, though I suppose one can retcon this into Sulu being bisexual.

I remember both the Enterprise episode with the “congenitor” one of my least favorite episodes of that series, and also the TNG episode.

 

[Viki63]

FYI, that article quoting Mr. Takei points out that the new Star Trek series are prequels, so if they make Sulu gay, with a spouse and child, they are saying he was gay in the beginning, “married” to a spouse, then went into the closet and didn’t mention it again for another however many years.
Which makes no sense at all. But I suppose you can do anything in an alternate universe.

.

 

[didymus]

Think about it, by the 24th century gay/straight won’t even enter into it.

Sex will be totally divorced from procreation (except for a few religious sects probably exiled to remote planets). Forget the holodeck, people will have brain implants that let them have the experience virtual reality, including porn so who know if real human contact will be able to compete?

I’ve only watched the original series and the first movie series though I’m now watching ST: Voyager. It’s kind of hard to take what with all the inconsistencies: how many times can the ship be 90% destroyed? given all the problems with the holodeck why not just shut it down? why is 7 of 9 wearing a body stocking instead of a uniform? Just kidding, I know the answer to the last one.

I may try TNG next, my wife used to like it.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Think about it, by the 24th century gay/straight won’t even enter into it.

Sex will be totally divorced from procreation (except for a few religious sects probably exiled to remote planets). Forget the holodeck, people will have brain implants that let them have the experience virtual reality, including porn so who know if real human contact will be able to compete?

I’ve only watched the original series and the first movie series though I’m now watching ST: Voyager. It’s kind of hard to take what with all the inconsistencies: how many times can the ship be 90% destroyed? given all the problems with the holodeck why not just shut it down? why is 7 of 9 wearing a body stocking instead of a uniform? Just kidding, I know the answer to the last one.

I may try TNG next, my wife used to like it.

DS9 takes place in the 24th century and and the roles of mothers and fathers is still valued and shown to be important through various character representations.

 

[Padres1969]

FYI, that article quoting Mr. Takei points out that the new Star Trek series are prequels, so if they make Sulu gay, with a spouse and child, they are saying he was gay in the beginning, “married” to a spouse, then went into the closet and didn’t mention it again for another however many years.
Which makes no sense at all. But I suppose you can do anything in an alternate universe.

.

They’re not prequels per se. Rather they happen several years prior to the time the original series was set, but in their own separate universe. So nothing hat happens in the JJ-verse impacts the original series or anything that came after it.

 

[Potter]

It’s uncanon considering Sulu’s obvious interest in women in the original series, but then again they make the Federation sound like NATO. There’s nothing of interest in the Abramsverse except for Urban as McCoy.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

DS9 takes place in the 24th century and and the roles of mothers and fathers is still valued and shown to be important through various character representations.

It is true though that the original Star Trek as well as TNG really minimized the role of actual married couples. None of the original ST characters were married. On TNG, only O’Brien, a rather minor character at the time, was married. I believe Worf was engaged at one point to K’Ehleyr and referred to her as his “mate” but I don’t think he was counted as married per Starfleet. He certainly didn’t go through the whole Klingon marriage ceremony with her, the way he did when he later married Jadzia Dax on DS9.

I guess perhaps DS9 was the most marriage-friendly ST incarnation. Worf and Dax got married, the married O’Brien had a larger role on that series, Sisko was a widower, and even the Ferengi Rom got married.

I only watched the first 3 seasons of Voyager, so don’t know if anyone got married on that show, but I recall Janeway had a long-time male “partner” but no sign they were actually married. Neelix and Kes weren’t married either.

 

[Padres1969]

It is true though that the original Star Trek as well as TNG really minimized the role of actual married couples. None of the original ST characters were married. On TNG, only O’Brien, a rather minor character at the time, was married. I believe Worf was engaged at one point to K’Ehleyr and referred to her as his “mate” but I don’t think he was counted as married per Starfleet. He certainly didn’t go through the whole Klingon marriage ceremony with her, the way he did when he later married Jadzia Dax on DS9.

I guess perhaps DS9 was the most marriage-friendly ST incarnation. Worf and Dax got married, the married O’Brien had a larger role on that series, Sisko was a widower, and even the Ferengi Rom got married.

I only watched the first 3 seasons of Voyager, so don’t know if anyone got married on that show, but I recall Janeway had a long-time male “partner” but no sign they were actually married. Neelix and Kes weren’t married either.

Spoiler Alert

On Voyager B’Elanna Torres and Tom Paris marry during the 7th season after an extended courtship that started around the 4th season. They eventually have a child together in the series finale.

Also at least two minor characters were married. Samantha Wildman, whose Katarian husband was stationed at DS9 when Voyager went missing. She was also unknowingly pregnant when their mission started and she later had her daughter Naomi who went on to be a minor character in her own right with Neelix as her godfather. And Assistant Chief Engineer Joe Carey, who was a reoccurring character from the second episode until late in the 7th season when he was tragically killed (the last crewmember to die on their trip home), is mentioned to have had a wife back home as Janeway and Chakotay are mourning his loss.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Though I know Rodenberry was “progressive” in his politics, I agree that all the main characters being single in TOS was more a bow to conventions about “action hero types” than any attempt to subvert the importance of marriage. In-story, I can see why the high mortality rate in Starfleet (especially if you’re assigned a red uniform ) would make many who work for it reluctant to get married. Also, most of the main characters are career officers and Starfleet is certainly presented as a quasi-military organization.

Indeed, comic book heroes are also single for the most part, some are even “playboys” such as Batman and Iron Man, the only major comic book character who was married was Spider-Man, and “was” is the operative word, he and MJ aren’t married anymore in the main universe.

Sulu has kids in main timeline where he is not gay, the other character’s marital status was indefinite and probably unlikely to be resolved or revisited now. At one point there was an idea of marrying of Spock to Saavik as a possible spouse for him, but that was never part of official continuity and more something that was part of spin-off material or fan fiction.

Dr Crusher is also a widower, however personally I found her dull as a character and had a preference for Dr. Pulaski who replaced her for one season of TNG and was a far more interesting character. Troi and Riker eventually got married in the movies but that was long after show ended of course.

One can also make the case that Dr. Crusher eventually married Picard though the marriage is not quite “canon”. It appears in one of the alternate timelines in the “All Good Things” series finale, but that ends in divorce, and the whole timeline is erased at the end of the episode. They are also presented as married in one of the Star Trek spinoff book series, and Picard is listed as one of Crusher’s “spouses” on her Wikipedia page, but I’m not sure that series is considered “canon”.

Padres1969, thanks for the update on Voyager. I’m not surprised that B’Elanna and Paris wound up married, I noticed chemistry between them even in the earlier episodes when Paris was still panting after Kes.

 

[Padres1969]

Padres1969, thanks for the update on Voyager. I’m not surprised that B’Elanna and Paris wound up married, I noticed chemistry between them even in the earlier episodes when Paris was still panting after Kes.

Almost forgot on Voyager. Tuvok was also mentioned to be married to T’Pel on several occasions. She remained on Vulcan with his 3(?) children for the duration of his mission in the Delta Quadrant.

DS9 also had a decent married dynamic to it. Sisko of course being a widower for the majority of the series and in the last season he married his long time girlfriend Kassidy Yates. Worf and Jadzia Dax were married in season 6 only to have Dax be murdered in the Season 6 finale (this was one of many marriages Dax had been involved in during her many lives). O’Brien’s marriage from his days on the Enterprise to Keiko carried over into DS9 for the duration of the show. Major reoccurring character, and Quark’s brother, Rom and Leeta married in the Season 5 finale. Minor reoccurring character Joseph Sisko, Ben’s father, was a twice married man, his first wife having left him after the “Prophet” inhabiting her body abandoned her and she regained control of her body. The second being the woman Ben believed to be his mother growing up who had passed away by the time of the show. We also were told that the on again off again bad guy Gul Dukat had a wife and several children. And at least once we were shown Major Kira’s father and mother who were married during the Bajoran occupation before they were both killed.

Enterprise, the prequel show, had at least one married character on the NX-01, albeit less than standard Christian convention. Dr. Phlox, the Denobulan, had at least 3 wives back home on Denobula (who in turn had 2 other husbands of their own) as was Denobulan custom.

 

[Padres1969]

Spoiler Alert for DC

Actually the pre-New 52 Superman is back and is once again married to Lois with a son now too. Post-New 52 Superman is no longer with us.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Thanks for the information, I don’t really follow comic books these days, but I do know that there are multiple “alternate universes” and timelines that make it very confusing to determine what “canon” is.

Roddenberry was very progressive in his sexual politics, he was at one point involved in a menage a trois with the actress who played Uhura and Majel Barret who played Christine Chapel and who was of course his real life spouse. He had views regarding sex and relationships that were rather freewheeling even by today’s standards.

I actually considered the number of single officers and lack of families on the ship as preferable in TOS. In TNG I noticed as it went on that whole thing about their been families on board faded into the background over the seasons, thankfully. Spock I could see retiring and marrying but not Scotty or Kirk, the latter two are career officers married to their jobs and the way they were written both knew it deep down.

I know that about Roddenberry, though I hadn’t heard the menage a trois story, though I do know he was involved with both Nicols and Barret. I also know he was also essentially an atheist. However, I do think that Scotty and Kirk being bachelors were more about them being “married to the job” then about sexual liberation. Maybe Scotty more than Kirk, though I do recall a storyline when he’s accused of murdering a woman he met on a planet and it was strongly implied something sexual had happened there, though of course Scotty didn’t actually murder her.

Indeed, many of the marriages that do take place in ST tend to happen toward the end of the series’ runs, at least the ones that aren’t prematurely interrupted by the death of one of the spouses. It seems accepted that young officers who are on their way up in Starfleet really have a lot of other priorities than pursuing serious relationships leading to marriage, but many will eventually settle down. On the other hand, Janeway was fairly well established in her career at the start of Voyager and it seemed she and Mark had been together for a while, but they still weren’t married.

 

[Padres1969]

Thanks for the information, I don’t really follow comic books these days, but I do know that there are multiple “alternate universes” and timelines that make it very confusing to determine what “canon” is.

I know that about Roddenberry, though I hadn’t heard the menage a trois story, though I do know he was involved with both Nicols and Barret. I also know he was also essentially an atheist. However, I do think that Scotty and Kirk being bachelors were more about them being “married to the job” then about sexual liberation. Maybe Scotty more than Kirk, though I do recall a storyline when he’s accused of murdering a woman he met on a planet and it was strongly implied something sexual had happened there, though of course Scotty didn’t actually murder her.

Indeed, many of the marriages that do take place in ST tend to happen toward the end of the series’ runs, at least the ones that aren’t prematurely interrupted by the death of one of the spouses. It seems accepted that young officers who are on their way up in Starfleet really have a lot of other priorities than pursuing serious relationships leading to marriage, but many will eventually settle down. On the other hand, Janeway was fairly well established in her career at the start of Voyager and it seemed she and Mark had been together for a while, but they still weren’t married.

Indeed Mark was actually Janeway’s fiance, not just boyfriend at Voyager’s outset. And later on we find out that several years after Janeway had been declared dead he had moved on and eventually married another woman. Harry Kim was in a long term relationship at the beginning of Voyager with Libby, that was implied during an “alternate timeline” episode was going to develop into an engagement before long if they hadn’t been sucked across the galaxy. And as I mentioned above Tuvok was married for the duration of the show. Actually Voyager and DS9 both had quite a few marriages or relationships on the way to marriage that were in place when the respective series started.

In the Star Trek universe it seems the Starship Enterprise is the one ship in Starfleet where marriage just isn’t something anyone has time for (except Riker and Troi 16 years on)

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Indeed Mark was actually Janeway’s fiance, not just boyfriend at Voyager’s outset. And later on we find out that several years after Janeway had been declared dead he had moved on and eventually married another woman. Harry Kim was in a long term relationship at the beginning of Voyager with Libby, that was implied during an “alternate timeline” episode was going to develop into an engagement before long if they hadn’t been sucked across the galaxy. And as I mentioned above Tuvok was married for the duration of the show. Actually Voyager and DS9 both had quite a few marriages or relationships on the way to marriage that were in place when the respective series started.

Okay, I didn’t know Mark was actually engaged to Janeway, and I do remember the episode where Kim has a flashback of Libby that did imply they were in a serious relationship. I guess Tuvok being married wasn’t that memorable to me, because he was Vulcan, and I assume his marriage was arranged, and he doesn’t seem to think about his wife much.

In the Star Trek universe it seems the Starship Enterprise is the one ship in Starfleet where marriage just isn’t something anyone has time for (except Riker and Troi 16 years on)

LOL! I also recall that the importance of the “carefree bachelor” character diminished each time a new ST series came out. Kirk was the epitome of that stereotype, and while Riker does eventually marry Troi but spends a lot of time sowing his wild oats first, and Troi herself had a child with another man, contemplates an arranged marriage, briefly dates Worf, etc. But Picard himself didn’t have too many romantic storylines, of course there was the UST with Crusher but that didn’t go anywhere until the very end of the series.

And certainly, Tom Paris started out as a “carefree bachelor” type but he wasn’t nearly as major a character as Kirk or Riker, at least not in the seasons I saw.

 

[Padres1969]

Okay, I didn’t know Mark was actually engaged to Janeway, and I do remember the episode where Kim has a flashback of Libby that did imply they were in a serious relationship. I guess Tuvok being married wasn’t that memorable to me, because he was Vulcan, and I assume his marriage was arranged, and he doesn’t seem to think about his wife much.

LOL! I also recall that the importance of the “carefree bachelor” character diminished each time a new ST series came out. Kirk was the epitome of that stereotype, and while Riker does eventually marry Troi but spends a lot of time sowing his wild oats first, and Troi herself had a child with another man, contemplates an arranged marriage, briefly dates Worf, etc. But Picard himself didn’t have too many romantic storylines, of course there was the UST with Crusher but that didn’t go anywhere until the very end of the series.

And certainly, Tom Paris started out as a “carefree bachelor” type but he wasn’t nearly as major a character as Kirk or Riker, at least not in the seasons I saw.

Actually Troi was impregnated by an alien presence, not another man. But your main point is sound. I mean the “carefree bachelor” on Voyager was the one who eventually settled down into a long term stable relationship and ended up married to her with a kid by the end of the series. It was the ultimate evolution of that archetype over the course of the ship based shows.

Picard actually had quite a few romantic story lines. He hooked up with Vash during season 3 on the pleasure planet Risa. He briefly had a relationship with Lt. Commander Neela Darren in season 5 I believe it was (which had one of the series defining musical moments when Darren and Picard played a duet of “The Inner Light” suite). And of course he had his long term not-relationship with Crusher. He wasn’t Captain Kirk’s woman in every port type captain. But Picard did have his romantic moments.

As for Tuvok, his wife actually does come up with fair consistency over the course of the series, and he actually mentions he often thinks of her often on at least one occasion. But of course being that he’s fully Vulcan he doesn’t mention her in the way a human would someone he is missing half a galaxy away since of course, no emotions.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Picard actually had quite a few romantic story lines. He hooked up with Vash during season 3 on the pleasure planet Risa. He briefly had a relationship with Lt. Commander Neela Darren in season 5 I believe it was (which had one of the series defining musical moments when Darren and Picard played a duet of “The Inner Light” suite). And of course he had his long term not-relationship with Crusher. He wasn’t Captain Kirk’s woman in every port type captain. But Picard did have his romantic moments.

I realize Picard did have some romances, that’s why I wrote that “Picard himself didn’t have too many romantic storylines”, not that he didn’t have any at all. Just that Picard’s love life didn’t seem to be as emphasized or important as some other characters.

As for Tuvok, his wife actually does come up with fair consistency over the course of the series, and he actually mentions he often thinks of her often on at least one occasion. But of course being that he’s fully Vulcan he doesn’t mention her in the way a human would someone he is missing half a galaxy away since of course, no emotions.

True that I’m probably not giving Tuvok enough credit, after all even in TNG there was that weird Tasha/Data episode, and a being with supposedly no emotions at all (not even suppressed ones) for the whole show run, seemed oddly attached to Tasha’s memory for much of it. As in, actually having a picture of her in his quarters.

ETA: Not only that, Data later gets completely fooled by Tasha’s sister, and it seemed his attachment to Tasha herself seemed to “bias” him in some way. None of this really makes sense for an android who wasn’t (at the time, I know it changed in the movie sequels) programmed to feel emotions.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I’ve watched quite a few sci-fi tv series’, and same-sex relationships aren’t represented very much. These relationships don’t seem to make common appearance in sci-fi, at least sci-fi that I’ve seen, it’s a rarity.

 

[Padres1969]

I’ve watched quite a few sci-fi tv series’, and same-sex relationships aren’t represented very much. These relationships don’t seem to make common appearance in sci-fi, at least sci-fi that I’ve seen, it’s a rarity.

Yeah I’m trying to think of the times I have seen SS relationships/marriage in Sci-fi shows I watch and it’s comparatively rare but there are instances all across Scifi including several of the major pillar shows of the genre.

Babylon 5 had the first officer Ivonova in a brief SS relationship with the station’s resident telepath Talia Winters before the latter was revealed to be a spy.

Stargate Universe had Camile Wray in a SS marriage, though her wife was back on Earth and their interactions were limited to times Wray used the “stones” to transfer her mind back to someone else’s body on Earth.

Doctor Who/Torchwood of course had Capt Jack Harkness who was kind of a “post sexual” character from the 51st century who was attracted to everyone, men and women, and who actually exuded a pheromone that made him attractive to both sexes (and many other species). But his biggest relationship was with fellow agent Ianto Jones.

Star Trek DS9 briefly flirted with the idea when Jadzia Dax briefly reunited with Lenara Khan. Dax’s male host in the past had been Khan’s host’s husband.

Firefly had Inara Serra who had relationships with both men and women, in addition to being a “companion”, which was a professional prostitute, which in universe was a very legitimate business (she was actually seen as the most respectable member of the crew other than perhaps the resident preacher Shepherd Book.

Battlestar Galactica had a SS relationship between Lt. Felix Gaeta and Lt. Hoshi until the former was executed for treason. Though Gaeta was portrayed as bisexual prior to the relationship.

I mean really if SS relationships are going to cause you to give up on Star Trek you might want to give up on anything in the genre in the last 25 years. All the major properties have touched on SS relationships in some form or others and almost always as either a positive or a “no big deal”.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Yeah I’m trying to think of the times I have seen SS relationships/marriage in Sci-fi shows I watch and it’s comparatively rare but there are instances all across Scifi including several of the major pillar shows of the genre.

Babylon 5 had the first officer Ivonova in a brief SS relationship with the station’s resident telepath Talia Winters before the latter was revealed to be a spy.

Stargate Universe had Camile Wray in a SS marriage, though her wife was back on Earth and their interactions were limited to times Wray used the “stones” to transfer her mind back to someone else’s body on Earth.

Doctor Who/Torchwood of course had Capt Jack Harkness who was kind of a “post sexual” character from the 51st century who was attracted to everyone, men and women, and who actually exuded a pheromone that made him attractive to both sexes (and many other species). But his biggest relationship was with fellow agent Ianto Jones.

Star Trek DS9 briefly flirted with the idea when Jadzia Dax briefly reunited with Lenara Khan. Dax’s male host in the past had been Khan’s host’s husband.

Firefly had Inara Serra who had relationships with both men and women, in addition to being a “companion”, which was a professional prostitute, which in universe was a very legitimate business (she was actually seen as the most respectable member of the crew other than perhaps the resident preacher Shepherd Book.

Battlestar Galactica had a SS relationship between Lt. Felix Gaeta and Lt. Hoshi until the former was executed for treason. Though Gaeta was portrayed as bisexual prior to the relationship.

I mean really if SS relationships are going to cause you to give up on Star Trek you might want to give up on anything in the genre in the last 25 years. All the major properties have touched on SS relationships in some form or others and almost always as either a positive or a “no big deal”.

That’s complicated in the case of Trill Jadzia Dax, and Lenara Khan, because Lenara Khan had been involved with the male host that had the symbiont that then had been implanted into Jadzia Dax… And trills take on the personality aspects etc. of hosts the symbiont has been implanted in, so wasn’t it that Lenara Khan was after, that Jadzia Dax had aspects of the man that Lenara Khan was involved with, and that’s what Lenara Khan was after really… not Jadzia Dax…? It’s complicated!

There are definite examples of same-sex relationships in sci-fi, but I think it is pretty rare.