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Roguish
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Was just watching some scenes again, and I realized that the “emo brat” impression that Kylo gives in TLJ is simply the result of him having removed his mask. It sets him back, from being a menacing leader, to the scowling, sulking adolescent he was before – but he still emains a leader in the evil camp.
As I pointed out earlier, TLJ thus ridicules the mask (Snoke explicitly calls it “ridiculous”), and thus implies that we viewers were silly to ever consider it (or Vader’s) mask menacing. But removing his mask really does turn Kylo from a very dark figure into a sulky adolescent – an emo brat. And apparently it wasn’t even necessary to wear it, for he is fine without it.
Things were very different with Vader’s mask. When he dons it, he loses his humanity, which is visually expressed as him no longer having a human face; and when he removes it his humanity is restored, and his evil overcome – at the cost of his life, but that’s worth it.
Again, I read de-religionization into this. In Vader’s case, becoming evil and becoming dehumanized, are one and the same thing – which is a religious view. In Kylo’s case – as depicted in TLJ – he is re-humanized (by the removal of his mask) but remains evil. In other words, evil is turned into a human flaw, a sort of psychological disposition, a nastiness of character rather than an alliance with Darkness. It is ontologically downgraded.
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hvizsgyak
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As standalone movies, each Star Wars movie was action packed and fun to watch. The first six though were amazing saga when you watch them all together. They remind me of American society. The evil corporate businesses (Trade Federation) trying to get their way and bullying certain planets. In steps a chaotic and divided Senate of the Republic to try and end the trade embargo. Most people are looking for the Republic to save the day but certain people in the Republic have a hidden agenda. These certain people want the dark forces to succeed and the want to destroy the forces of good - the Jedi.
In the first three SW movies (TPM, AOTC, ROTS), you not only see the corruption of a single person, Anakin Skywalker, you also see the corruption of the government entity. It has everyone fooled into believing it helping the trade problem when in actuality its going to take over everything and run the universe itself. And its driven to snuff out the only good in the universe.
I agree the last SW movie, TLJ, totally threw that all out the door where a supernatural good overcame evil. It made what we hold as good obsolete and wants us to believe there is a better way, a better good, a more humanistic way to solve our problems. Once again, the people will look to these enlightened people for saving them from their problems. In the end, they will be fooled again by evil. Now a proper ending for the SW saga would be to have the force come back into peoples lives (in SW#9) but we can probably guess
(who controls Hollywood?) it won’t happen.
You know, when I’m tired I really don’t make much sense. hopefully, some will understand. I’m with you Roguish.
In the first three SW movies (TPM, AOTC, ROTS), you not only see the corruption of a single person, Anakin Skywalker, you also see the corruption of the government entity. It has everyone fooled into believing it helping the trade problem when in actuality its going to take over everything and run the universe itself. And its driven to snuff out the only good in the universe.
I agree the last SW movie, TLJ, totally threw that all out the door where a supernatural good overcame evil. It made what we hold as good obsolete and wants us to believe there is a better way, a better good, a more humanistic way to solve our problems. Once again, the people will look to these enlightened people for saving them from their problems. In the end, they will be fooled again by evil. Now a proper ending for the SW saga would be to have the force come back into peoples lives (in SW#9) but we can probably guess
(who controls Hollywood?) it won’t happen.
You know, when I’m tired I really don’t make much sense. hopefully, some will understand. I’m with you Roguish.
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abucs
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I would disagree a little bit Roguish. I think a hero can be complicated, in fact because everyone is complicated the complicated hero is more real and relatable. I think a good hero learns to face his own complications and shortfalls and overcome them for the good of himself and others. So you are right in that Han is more complex as a hero as he is a smuggler, and self centred and wanting to be compensated for helping the resistance. He becomes one of the heroes in the episode 4 because he overcomes this to come back and help Luke blow the death star rather than continue is his original plan to escape to safety after he was paid.
I think Luke was complex as well as he was restless in being a young farmhand having to obey his uncles and of course he had his dreams but being a young immature man he couldn’t realise any of them at the time. He also had to overcome the death of his family and learn this new weird thing call the force and relate to people completely out of his experience including the space smuggles Han and Chewie, the former resistance general Obi Wan, not to mention the resistance and the Empire. You are right though in that he did not have the complication of being intrinsically a bad person. His goodness is always there and I guess part of his attraction is that he keeps his goodness among all of the complications he faces.
In a later episode the added complexities were learning the force and choosing between helping his friends and continuing his training and then of course having to deal with the fact that the most evil villain (who he had joined to oppose) was actually his father that he had always idealised without knowing him.
What was a disappointment for me in this latest episode was that it gave Luke lots of new complications added by the writers. These complications overcame him rather than him overcoming them. Luke had overcome so much in his journey and become a Jedi master. This should have meant he had mastered self control, wisdom and complications.
It looked very poor to me for the writers to have invented all these complications (in the missing years) which had overcome him. This is another example of disregarding the power of the Force with regards to wisdom and self control which is what the good side of the Force was all about.
Regards.
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tomarin
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I never understood why Jar Jar was worse than the Ewoks or even cute little R2D2. George Lucas has always had a predilection for injecting cute or silly stuff in his Star Wars movies, perhaps to keep them from being too moody or serious, or because he thought the logical audience was children and they would like that sort of thing.Oh me too! I remember watching that and thinking “this feels really wrong…”
Jar Jar…oh don’t get me started…
BlueMaxx:
LOL!!!
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tomarin
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It also seems to me, in response to the OP, that mysticism and religion are not one and the same thing.
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Joe_5859
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I just read an article recently about how the actor who voiced Jar Jar was borderline suicidal because of all the hate he received for his character. I never quite understood the hate, either. He’s a comedic relief character, for sure. I thought he performed that function well.
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tomarin
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Part of it no doubt was his style of speaking which some people took to be making fun of minorities, although I don’t think Lucas intended it to be.
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BlueMaxx
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I do not think “making fun of minorities” was ever a consideration or reason for the hate…Joe_5859:
Part of it no doubt was his style of speaking which some people took to be making fun of minorities, although I don’t think Lucas intended it to be.
(He) was simply a horrific character on so many different levels…
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Joe_5859
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Oh yeah? I never heard that (nor thought of that) before. I’d think the Trade Federation has a larger claim to that complaint, though.
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Angel_Gabriel
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Well, Jar Jar had dialog which I think made things worse. Both the Ewoks and R2D2 just made noises and spoke in their own language.
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tomarin
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it didn’t help Jar Jar’s cause that he spoke in what sounded like a Stepnfetchit routine (and he had dreadlocks or something akin to them). I think Lucas thought he would be cool but clearly he misread the situation.
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sheepovrep
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“I always thought that the Jedi “religion” was more akin to Zoroastrianism”
I thought it was similar to Taoism ying yang with half good and half evil. Or good and evil in equal amounts. Too many Jedi I suppose. The way I see it the Jedi were too big of people to forgive someone from going to the dark side. The dark side not to much. It would be up to the One, to see the dark and call it light, calling the whole ying yang the light side. Let he who has no sin cast the first stone. Its kind of sad how Darth Vader did not stop the Emperor without Luke’s help. But would the Rebellion be too big of people to forgive Darth Vader if he had?
I thought it was similar to Taoism ying yang with half good and half evil. Or good and evil in equal amounts. Too many Jedi I suppose. The way I see it the Jedi were too big of people to forgive someone from going to the dark side. The dark side not to much. It would be up to the One, to see the dark and call it light, calling the whole ying yang the light side. Let he who has no sin cast the first stone. Its kind of sad how Darth Vader did not stop the Emperor without Luke’s help. But would the Rebellion be too big of people to forgive Darth Vader if he had?
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Roguish
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@Joe_5859 @tomarin @BlueMaxx @Angel_Gabriel
Just as info (and this is way off-topic), Jar Jar was not primarily meant to be a comedic relief character; he was meant to be the ultimate villain and the ultimate easter egg. He was the hidden threat, i.e. the “Phantom Menace”, until Lucas changed his mind due to all the criticism. This has been pretty much established fact since 2015, and is known as the “Darth Jar Jar theory”. I pointed this out earlier in the thread. If you’re not familiar with this (and it takes your interest), you might want to spend a couple of hours reading up on it; I linked the original Reddit above. There are also plenty of Youtube vids that will take you through the evidence step by step. I consider this one the best.
P.S. If you guys feel like discussing Jar-Jar or other SW theories more, please spawn a new thread for it. (I might join in.) I opened this one to discuss the view that SW’s religious overtones were intentionally undermined in TLJ.
EDIT: Here’s the new thread for Jar-Jar (and related) discussion. Already gaining traction! (I think we might swamp the CAF servers with this one.)
Just as info (and this is way off-topic), Jar Jar was not primarily meant to be a comedic relief character; he was meant to be the ultimate villain and the ultimate easter egg. He was the hidden threat, i.e. the “Phantom Menace”, until Lucas changed his mind due to all the criticism. This has been pretty much established fact since 2015, and is known as the “Darth Jar Jar theory”. I pointed this out earlier in the thread. If you’re not familiar with this (and it takes your interest), you might want to spend a couple of hours reading up on it; I linked the original Reddit above. There are also plenty of Youtube vids that will take you through the evidence step by step. I consider this one the best.
P.S. If you guys feel like discussing Jar-Jar or other SW theories more, please spawn a new thread for it. (I might join in.) I opened this one to discuss the view that SW’s religious overtones were intentionally undermined in TLJ.
EDIT: Here’s the new thread for Jar-Jar (and related) discussion. Already gaining traction! (I think we might swamp the CAF servers with this one.)
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BlueMaxx
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pretty much established fact
I am not sure you get the meaning of a fact?
P.S. If you guys feel like discussing Jar-Jar or other SW theories more, please spawn a new thread for it. (I might join in.) I opened this one to discuss the view that SW’s religious overtones were intentionally undermined in TLJ.
I think we established Jar Jar Binks was pure evil, akin the the satan spawned Jim Henson Muppet fest Ewoks…sooooo that is under the category of religious…
I am not sure you get the meaning of a fact?
P.S. If you guys feel like discussing Jar-Jar or other SW theories more, please spawn a new thread for it. (I might join in.) I opened this one to discuss the view that SW’s religious overtones were intentionally undermined in TLJ.
I think we established Jar Jar Binks was pure evil, akin the the satan spawned Jim Henson Muppet fest Ewoks…sooooo that is under the category of religious…
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Roguish
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C’mon BlueMaxx, there’s no need for us to have an argument about it. I said I opened this thread to discuss my view that SW’s religious overtones were intentionally undermined in TLJ, not to discuss SW’s religiousness in general. Whether Jar-Jar was a good character or not is just not directly related to that, and he isn’t even in TLJ, the film I put up for discussion. Am I wrong to ask others to stay on topic in my own thread? We have a forum rule for it, you know. Anyway, here’s your new thread, have at it. I’ll join in.
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BlueMaxx
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No, but be prepared for disappointment…it is the internet…and I am in no way arguing…I go to the clinic for that…
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ZMystiCat
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No you don’t…
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Roguish
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I just watched AotC again. What you wrote here isn’t exactly what happens. (I had to watch it again myself; couldn’t remember the precise story.)
Yoda does not send Obi-Wan to ask for clones. He sends Obi-Wan after an assassin, and the trail leads him to a hidden planet where accidentally and to his surprise he discovers that a clone army has been manufactured already on the orders of a long-dead Jedi master called Sifo-Dyas. This Sifo-Dyas apparently acted alone because Yoda and Mace Windu inform Obi-Wan that he did not have the approval of the Jedi council.
So as I see it, this episode didn’t really downplay the Jedis’ supernatural abilities.
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