Star Wars 8 The Last Jedi destroyed the Star Wars saga on purpose

[Vonsalza]

The Holdo Maneuver was very difficult for me to buy in TLJ.

I saw someone write a summary that it was “ok” to break Star Wars naval warfare doctrine because they needed to show Admiral Feminist panic and subsequently space-ram her ship into the evil Patriarchy.

Maybe a bit over-the-top, but I still laughed.

 

[Roguish]

Following on from this, Disney has actually made Star Wars seem more religious at times. Look at Rogue One;

Yes. But I made my point on the basis of SW8 The Last Jedi, which as you know is the most recent instalment. That film made a total break with a religiousness that was present in earlier episodes, including Rogue One.

 

[abucs]

Yes. But I made my point on the basis of SW8 The Last Jedi, which as you know is the most recent instalment. That film made a total break with a religiousness that was present in earlier episodes, including Rogue One.

For me the force was something very mysterious and a major attraction of the whole Star Wars story. It had a transcendent spiritual component and it took a long time for someone to master themselves and have access to the force. The more in tune with the force the more powerful one could become, either on the good side or the bad side.

Yet, Rey becomes the most powerful Jedi without any knowledge or spiritual journey at all. It is just a physical ability with her and yet she is more powerful than Luke within a week of just hearing about the force!

That writing ruined the whole idea of a spiritual and mysterious force, Such a shame. The force was Star Wars.

 

[Roguish]

For me the force was something very mysterious and a major attraction of the whole Star Wars story. It had a transcendent spiritual component and it took a long time for someone to master themselves and have access to the force. The more in tune with the force the more powerful one could become, either on the good side or the bad side. […] That writing ruined the whole idea of a spiritual and mysterious force, Such a shame. The force was Star Wars.

Yes. The concept of The Force (as we knew it) was destroyed in TLJ. The dialogue that Luke and Rey have during her first training session on the island basically wipes out everything we’ve come to understand about it, and it’s turned into a joke. Even Yoda is turned into a comedian when he sets fire to the Jedi scriptures and comments “Page turners they were not, were they?” The underlying message: the Force is nothing special, nor are the Jedi, and scripture isn’t worth preserving. Anti-religious? Me thinks so. Even the dark side is mocked when Snoke tells Kylo to remove that “silly mask”. Apparently we, the viewers, too were silly to ever think of Vader’s mask as menacing.

It’s telling that Mark Hamill confessed in an interview that he was very puzzled about Rian Johnson’s take on Luke Skywalker in TLJ. Hamill even told Johnson so, but to no avail. And of course Hamill was under contractual obligation to act the part according to the script, so he himself couldn’t do anything about it, even though acting out a Luke that was totally different from the Luke he’d played in 4-5-6 was visibly (in the interviews, not the film) agonizing for him.

 

[Roguish]

I liked ‘Rogue 1’ but ‘A Force Awakens’ just seems to repeat much of the storylines in previous movies.

It’s beside my original point, but you’re right. In fact, it is the main reason that TFA is lame. It would have been a good movie if it hadn’t been such a glaringly obvious remake of SW4.

 

[Bataar]

I believe it failed due to Kathleen Kennedy using it as an excuse to promote her political SJW philosophy. Can’t have strong male characters, female characters are always right (even when they’re not), male characters are dumbed down as much as possible, female characters have no flaws, adds a long, boring, tedious scene to try to demonize rich people, etc etc

And then when fans criticized the problems, rather than addressing them, the higher ups at Disney/Lucasfilm called the fans racist, sexist, etc. Claimed the problem is that most critics are white males. Apparently, you’re not allowed to criticize a poorly written character.

 

[Roguish]

What’s most interesting about the original interview that the blogpost you linked is a comment on, is that at one point Cameron literally tells Lucas: “You were creating a religion, George.”

I’m just pointing that out in response to those who claim that I’m mistaken to see religious sentiment behind the original (i.e. Lucas’) Star Wars episodes.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Actually, the director’s been canned. Apparently J.J. Abrams is back for #9.

I agree with everything else you wrote though.

 

[Roguish]

By far worse than the advent of Jar-Jar.

Your comment makes me wonder if you are even aware of the “Darth Jar-Jar” theory, which by now is considered pretty much proven beyond dispute. If you’re not aware, better read up on it. Might change your mind about how silly the Jar-Jar character was, and therefore about how incompetent George Lucas was as a storywriter and filmmaker. Truth is, if fan criticism hadn’t been so bad early on, and Lucas would have remained at the helm, the truth about Jar-Jar, revealed some time in 7-8-9, would have been the biggest surprise ever in all movie history. And Lucas’ success at hiding Jar-Jar’s true nature in spite of dozens of clearly visible clues in 1-2-3, planted by Lucas himself, would have vindicated him as a superb story teller and movie maker.

Here’s the Reddit post that started it all.

P.S. Something that I haven’t seen pointed out anywhere yet, is that even SW8 supports the DJJ theory. Look at Snoke’s body language in the first scene with Kylo, where he tells Kylo to remove the mask. Look especially at how he moves his arms. It’s identical to the way Jar-Jar moves his arms in many scenes. Not that we needed more evidence, but it shows that even with Lucas gone, Abrams dismissed, and Johnson in charge, the concept of an evil Jar-Jar remains in place.

 

[Roguish]

Actually, the director’s been canned. Apparently J.J. Abrams is back for #9.

Yep, and that’s a very, very interesting development. I read a while ago that Johnson had ideas for both 8 and 9. Apparently at the time the idea was that he would be doing both films. Why did Disney change its mind? And why back to Abrams, who did 7? It’s puzzling, because 7 and 8 are so very different. On the other hand, maybe Johnson just had other stuff to do, and maybe Abrams has taken no offense at Johnson’s bull-dozing of the ground-work he (Abrams) laid in 7. We’ll have to wait for 9 to find out, I suppose.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I was actually talking about this with a friend this weekend. Basically, the lead of Lucas Arts half pushed J.J. out, and replaced a lot of the Lucas Arts higher ups with people who shared her views. She is now in the process of being canned, as she pissed off the higher ups at Disney, and J.J. is being brought back because he helmed TFA to such great success. (Whether you like it or not, you can’t deny that movie did really well.)

Personally, I loved TFA, and wish Abrhams had stayed on for #8 and #9. It’d be nice to see a trilogy with a cohesive vision behind it.

 

[po18guy]

Destroyed?

Or did it…

 

[Roguish]

J.J. is being brought back because he helmed TFA to such great success. (Whether you like it or not, you can’t deny that movie did really well.)

It did, and understandably so. It’s basically a good movie. As I commented earlier in the thread, its only weakness is that it so blatantly copies scenes and story elements from SW4.

Who is this lead of Lucas Arts that you’re talking about? Not Kathleen Kennedy, right?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Destroyed?

Or did it…

According to most long time fans of the series, yeah, it did.

It’s a matter of opinion, to be sure, but even as someone who enjoyed about half of the movie, I can’t deny that they took some major liberties with established lore. For example, never once before in any of the movies (and I also don’t think in the books) have they ever discussed the concept of ship fuel. In TLJ, it’s basically the main plot point that sets the entire story in motion. It’s really just bad writing, and and exercise in contrivance for the sake of bad story telling.

Then there’s Holdo… where to begin. Far from being a strong female character (ala Leia or, arguably, Padme in episode 1), she just comes of as a whiny know-it-all who withholds very, very important information from her main squad commander (and focal point of team cohesion) just because she doesn’t like him. Poe made a bad decision, true, but it was a bad decision fueled by an unnecessary lack of knowledge. (His bad decision at the start of the movie is another point entirely… which I discuss below)

As for Poe and Finn, they got royally F-ed over by the new “vision”. Finn’s entire arc in the last movie was overcoming his fear and standing up for what’s right. He confronts Kylo in order to protect Rey, even though he knows he’s severely outmatched. That was his crowning moment, the conclusion of that movies character arc, and a defining point for him going forward. Then, literally a few hours later (in universe time), he’s a coward again running away from a fight. They reset his character to the start of the first movie, and ignored all the development he’d undergone. Poe also got the Jacka** treatment and went from being a competent leader with high level skills, to an idiot who basically makes every bad decision imaginable and completely ignores every order given to him.

The director went out of her way to make the strong men of the first movie look like idiots and cowards, and then created a “strong female figure” who was far more incompetent then the people the movie was trying to demean…

Egh… the more I think back over that movie the more I dislike it… I wish it had just been the Rey and Luke movie T_T

 

[ProdglArchitect]

ProdglArchitect:

J.J. is being brought back because he helmed TFA to such great success. (Whether you like it or not, you can’t deny that movie did really well.)

It did, and understandably so. It’s basically a good movie. As I commented earlier in the thread, its only weakness is that it so blatantly copies scenes and story elements from SW4.

Who is this lead of Lucas Arts that you’re talking about? Not Kathleen Kennedy, right?

I don’t know her name, sorry.

 

[Roguish]

Egh… the more I think back over that movie the more I dislike it… I wish it had just been the Rey and Luke movie T_T

Yep, that’s the thing. It gets worse the more you carefully think about it. But for me that extends even to the Rey-and-Luke-on-the-island story arc. I mean, I admit I giggled when Yoda commented about the Jedi scriptures that “page turners they were not, were they?” and set them on fire. As comedy it works, sure, but when I thought about it after the movie I realized that for me it had damaged who Yoda is. Han could have said it, of course. Or any other witty non-Jedi character. That would’ve been fine. But not Yoda, because this kind of sarcasm basically subverts his entire character. Same with Luke throwing the light-saber over his shoulder. That was his Father’s light-saber, kept safe by Obi-Wan for many years and given to Luke in a defining moment in SW4. And he tosses it away as if its garbage? I mean, even if we buy into Luke’s complete change of character (which I personally don’t), he should at least show some emotion when he is presented with it again by Rey. But no, it’s discarded as a worthless trinket.

 

[Usagi]

Colin Trevorrow, who directed Jurassic World, was the original choice to helm Episode IX. Rian Johnson was never going to do two in a row.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

But not Yoda, because this kind of sarcasm basically subverts his entire character.

I’m going to have to ask you to refer back to Empire, because that was the most in-character thing I’ve seen Yoda do since that movie. Prequel trilogy Yoda always struck me as way too serious after seeing him for the first time in Empire. Yes, Yoda had his moments of seriousness in Empire and Return, and they were excellently handled and fit well thematically. In 1-3, he’s serious all the time, and it just didn’t make sense seeing how he ends up.

As for Luke, I actually bought his character change the most. He’s done. He spent years of his life fighting his father, changed him only for him to die, started up a school to train new Jedi, and then watched that get totally destroyed by his top pupil and nephew… No, his completely and utter done-ness makes perfect sense. If you see something that reminds you of what you believe to be the defining failure of your life, you wouldn’t really have much respect for regardless of its history.

I don’t like that moment either, but I do understand it.

 

[Roguish]

Prequel trilogy Yoda always struck me as way too serious after seeing him for the first time in Empire.

Hm, interesting point. I guess the difference between me and many other fans is that I never had any strong feelings against the prequels, especially not story-wise. So you’re right in saying (implicitly) that my view of Yoda is a prequel-type Yoda and probably less a 4-5-6 Yoda. To be honest, I don’t remember much Yoda comedy from the original trilogy, though I’m sure it was there. Maybe it’s time to watch them for the umpteenth time

I actually bought his character change the most. He’s done. He spent years of his life fighting his father, changed him only for him to die, started up a school to train new Jedi, and then watched that get totally destroyed by his top pupil and nephew… No, his completely and utter done-ness makes perfect sense.

This is interesting too, and has a direct bearing on my original hypothesis. To me, Luke giving up on the Jedi order is somewhat analogous to a knight giving up on the Church after some serious setbacks. Sure, Luke has his reasons – but why can’t he get over them? Anyway, I do see that your interpretation is plausible at least. I’ll give it some thought.

I’m off to bed now. Thanks for some good discussion.

 

[Usagi]

I can’t agree with you here. As I saw it, TLJ continues Rogue One’s trajectory of adding more mystical and religious elements to the Force than it explicitly had before. There’s a First Jedi Temple, and Ancient Jedi Texts. Luke’s description of the Force to Rey is deeper and more mystical than we’ve heard in a long time.

The Force is nothing important? The Force is literally everything. It exists beyond the constraints of Jedi or Sith, and raises up champions for itself without need of gifted bloodlines or extensive training.

The Jedi? Luke, who is hurting from his own failure to do any better than Obi-Wan, says at first that the tradition should be allowed to die out, But, y’know, the movie doesn’t end there. Rey and Yoda reignite Luke’s faith in himself, and in his title-dropping line near the end he affirms that the Jedi will continue even beyond his own end.

The but with the Ancient Jedi Texts is another matter of misdirection. Rey still has them at the end of the movie, and sly old Yoda undoubtedly knew that when he appeared to destroy them to shock Luke into realizing that he did value them after all.