Statistics About Pastors

[Dhc8_Type]

1 primary church 2 Sunday 1 Wednesday service. And rural church about 10 miles from our church on Sunday. He’s always been a good speaker and had the ability to articulate well. Plus years of experience help I’m sure.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I would imagine if one’s father was also a pastor then you learn a lot of helpful tips.

 

[Tommy999]

Some 60 years ago I attended a Big 10 college. I kid you not: the absolutely wildest girls in the dorm were daughters of ministers. They weren’t all that way, of course, but enough that we looked upon them as problem children, even when sweet and lovable.

While I don’t doubt your experience, the reason why I said, “I was most surprised By how many children of pastors elect not to attend church. That’s sad and counterintuitive” was because I’ve only known a handful or so of “PKs” aka “preacher’s kids” and they were usually well-behaved and model students in class, etc. For example, I’d expect the son of a basketball coach to know a lot about basketball and be instilled with the fundamentals. I’d also expect the son of a renowned chef to know a lot about cooking. The same way, I would expect a PK to be well versed in Christian morals and ethics and act accordingly, as in Proverbs 22:6: 'Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it. That is why I said I was surprised by the stat. However, there is always free will of the person and the time (or lack thereof) spent by any parent with their child is critical in their formation.

One PK friend of mine in high school was the son of an Assembly of God pastor. He was a nice kid and is now a pastor, too. His biggest issue in high school was that he wanted to attend school dances but his parents wouldn’t allow him. He always asked me about them and asked for a play-by-play of what took place. In a sense, he was living vicariously through me, and I felt sorry for him because back in the day dances at my school were relatively rated G with lots of chaperones, so his parents didn’t have too much to worry about. Plus, if kids are going to be promiscuous, not going to a dance isn’t going to stop them.

I grew up in Presbyterian Church , USA (God’s frozen chosen ) and the pastor and his wife had three kids. The oldest boy became an agnostic and an intellectual who quit going to church, and the daughter married a young pastor after college. The youngest son had Asperger disease so he continued to live with the pastor and his wife into adulthood.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The center of our worship is Jesus in the Eucharist, not a 45 minute sermon.

I think we can agree that depending on the particular Protestant church, this timeline will vary a lot. The most recent Protestant church service I attended was 1/2 hour of music, 10 minutes for announcements and offertory, and then 2 hours of the pastor talking, followed by a song to pipe everybody out.

I know if I went to an Episcopal church or a Lutheran church, I would see something more along the lines of a Catholic Mass, including a relatively short (15-30 minute) sermon time.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

What I don’t understand is the need for Catholics to constantly turn every thread into a “we have the Truth and you dont” scenario.

I would gently suggest that you and perhaps some of the other Protestants here are somewhat sensitive to any mention of the fact - and it is a fact - that our religious practice revolves around the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. That is just how it is - it’s why we can have an entire Mass without the pastor giving any homily or sermon or speech at all.

You seem to be interpreting any mention of the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist as a dig at non-Catholics. This is a Catholic forum and we have to be able to state truths about our own faith without others getting upset. I read the poster’s statement as a factual one, namely that our priest giving a sermon is a significantly less important part of the Mass than it would be at many Protestant churches, where the weekly sermon is the main event and puts significant demands on the pastor’s time to compose and deliver. You apparenty read it as a dig at Protestantism, even though the poster did not add anything on like “and you Protestants don’t have that.”

Maybe chill out a little.

 

[Wannano]

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing. So, saw this and it was eye popping:

45% of pastors spend 10-15 hours a week on sermon preparation

So many people complain about dry toast homilies in the RCC…and say the sermons are much better in the protestant Churches. Welp, there’s the reason why. That is a ton of time to prepare for something, so yeah, the finished product better be very good.

The center of our worship is Jesus in the Eucharist, not a 45 minute sermon.

I am willing to chill out other than for the fact I am left feeling quite cold already.

One more time. …in Protestant Church’s the center of our worship IS Jesus…the center of our worship is not a sermon.

 

[TULIPed]

I am a fan of military history. I remember reading an account of a battle from a soldier who fought in Vietnam. He wrote that it was not uncommon for the enemy to attempt to wound the point man of a patrol. The enemy knew that a wounded man would always draw a medic. A medic was a juicy target, as he could put men back into battle, and was a general help to morale. Similarly, the enemy looked for radio antenna, as they knew that often an officer was close by. An officer, and the leadership he provided, was - and is - a key target for the enemy.

Similarly, it makes sense that our enemy would go after our spiritual leaders and healers. If he can disable, distract or otherwise take them out of the battle, how much more will the rest of the troops be affected. Our pastors need to be bathed in prayer and support.

 

[TULIPed]

Oh come on W - don’t go, and don’t get cross (no pun intended). A little grace my friend. I don’t think any offense was meant, and if it was, what a great time to exercise the other cheek

Besides, I can’t be the only heretic around here!! Don’t leave me!

 

[Tommy999]

Yes, services can vary. The one you attended seems much longer compared to the ones I’ve attended. At my conservative Methodist congregation, the service lasts about an hour and 15 minutes. Announcements are about 5 of that, music/hymns and Apostles Creed + Lord’s Prayer + offering takes about 30 of that, sermon about 25, plus the sharing of the peace and communion. We usually have communion every other week, with sermon being a tad longer and overall service a tad shorter on days when there is no communion.

I understand that everything is centered around the Eucharist in Catholicism. I respect that. In my Protestant service, the focal point is the sermon. A good one will keep the attention of the congregation and will be remembered and its message applied in the real world the rest of the week and (hopefully) beyond.

 

[Angannas]

There has been research published that shows that non-denominational pastors have a much more difficult time than those in supportive denominations - just because there is someone above them who can give support. I believe that Fueller, who published the stats referred to by the OP tends towards the non-denoms, so is probably a bit skewed. This difference has been found to particularly apply to the numbers of clergy who leave ministry - much higher in non-denoms than denoms.

 

[Wannano]

Yes, services can vary. The one you attended seems much longer compared to the ones I’ve attended. At my conservative Methodist congregation, the service lasts about an hour and 15 minutes. Announcements are about 5 of that, music/hymns and Apostles Creed + Lord’s Prayer + offering takes about 30 of that, sermon about 25, plus the sharing of the peace and communion. We usually have communion every other week, with sermon being a tad longer and overall service a tad shorter on days when there is no communion.

I understand that everything is centered around the Eucharist in Catholicism. I respect that. In my Protestant service, the focal point is the sermon. A good one will keep the attention of the congregation and will be remembered and its message applied in the real world the rest of the week and (hopefully) beyond.

You have a nice way of saying what I thought I was saying. Sure, the sermon is a focal point but not the center of our worship. Jesus is the center of your worship, right?

“The center of our worship is Jesus in the Eucharist, not a 45 minute sermon.”

 

[OddBird]

Jesus is the center of your worship, right?

Of course. Here in my French-speaking part of Europe, a Reformed theologian, Laurent Gagnebin, wrote that the Reformed service is an ellipse with to focal points : Jesus made manifest in the preaching of the Word, and Jesus made manifest in the Lord’s Supper (celebrated weekly here)

 

[jack63]

jack63:

Nobody is proposing to immediately put married priests in to major positions like a pastor at a major parish.

I am not sure how one would avoid this. We have a priest shortage and these days you often see priests with just a few years of priestly experience being given their own parish.

Not sure how one would define “major parish” because your typical Catholic parish in my experience in USA is going to have at least a couple hundred members at minimum, and often more than that.

There are two models that really do work where I think married priests could play a meaningful role. The first is very similar to a model of a Jesuit Parish where there are well over a thousand members. There are lots of Jesuit priests. Most of them hold other jobs as teachers or researchers. Maybe only a couple are actually full time at the parish. They work together to give homilies and blessings etc.

In rural areas of the US now you can have one priest traveling around to multiple very small parishes and maybe a school during the weekdays. In these parishes there are less than 100 parishioners. Could one of these much smaller parishes be handled by a married Catholic priest? Sure! In fact I think it would be very meaningful for these smaller rural parishes to have their own priests who is also part of their community. This is similar to what is being proposed in the Amazon now. For whatever it is worth, it is what I experienced growing up before I converted.

Would married priests fix every problem in the church? Of course not! However, I think it would be a healthy and part of the solution.

 

[jack63]

And regarding the idea of “older married men”, a lot of Catholic couples are raising children right into their 40s, especially if they have a big family or didn’t marry until their early 30s, so it’s not like you’re going to have only empty nesters as priests unless you only take married men who are over 50, which I don’t think would be the plan.

I hear what you are saying. Let me point out the counter point/argument that I don’t think has been pointed out here or in the article. Often the issue with married ministers is money. They simply don’t get paid enough, and this is a big part of what causes the massive stress. An older married man would ideally have a stable job and income. That is why you’d go for the older married man…not so much due to the fact that his children were raised. In this sense a married Catholic priest’s ministry would really be a gift.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m sorry you are upset about this, but we have discussed it at length before.
You are on a Catholic forum.
Our belief in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is THE central tenet of our faith.

This is a thread about pastoral stress on marriages and families, something I was unaware of until this other pastor brought the statistics to my attention. I am interested in the topic mainly because we have a Catholic synod meeting to discuss, among other things, the possibility of married Western Catholic priests.

This is not a thread for us to have the umpteenth discussion/ debate about Protestants not feeling comfortable with how Catholics express themselves on a Catholic forum about the central belief and high point of our faith.

If someone is going to take offense each time a Catholic mentions that our Mass revolves around the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, then perhaps it would be best for that person to take a break from the forum, put posters on ignore etc. Catholics shouldn’t have to hide their central mystery and truth of their Catholic faith under a bushel basket on their own Catholic forum for fear of offending someone. Adios to you.

Edited because I can’t believe somebody flagged a statement of truth of the Catholic faith on a Catholic forum. If someone finds that offensive on a Catholic forum, then I am truly left shaking my head.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I hear what you are saying. Let me point out the counter point/argument that I don’t think has been pointed out here or in the article. Often the issue with married ministers is money . They simply don’t get paid enough, and this is a big part of what causes the massive stress. An older married man would ideally have a stable job and income. That is why you’d go for the older married man…not so much due to the fact that his children were raised. In this sense a married Catholic priest’s ministry would really be a gift.

This is a good point. The Church would presumably pay Mr Married Priest a salary, and I’m further presuming it might be more than that of a single priest if Mr Married Priest has dependents. The Church might also make some accommodations such as free tuition for the priest’s kids at the local Catholic school including high school, college tuition benefits at Catholic colleges, some type of housing allowance or accommodation for a family since a priest with a wife and children cannot live in a room in a shared rectory with two or three other priests. The help from the diocese could at least ease some of the monetary stresses.

Non-Catholic pastors may or may not get support from some central authority. I’ve heard of cases where the pastor basically has to support himself and his family out of the church donations, other cases where the church elders complained about the size of a pastor’s family, and as someone else said, some pastors have to work a second job. I was actually surprised to hear that many Protestant congregations don’t get above 100 people. I think it would be hard to rely on the donations of just 100 people to support both all the church needs and your own family, even if every single person tithed, and I’m sure there are some who don’t or can’t.

 

[Tommy999]

I was actually surprised to hear that many Protestant congregations don’t get above 100 people. I think it would be hard to rely on the donations of just 100 people to support both all the church needs and your own family

My brother who lives in another state belongs to a small non-denominational church with about 100 people or so. His pastor has a full time job outside of his pastoral duties at the church. Therefore, his time for congregational care is limited, but his congregation seems to understand, according to my brother. He says the pastor remains busy, though. Kind of reminds me of the Apostle Paul. Wasn’t he a tent maker on the side?

My church congregation is a large one with at least 5 or 6 full time ministers. I don’t know how much they make, but I think they live well. In addition, a large portion of the budget is designated for missionary activities, especially in Africa, where all Christian denominations seem to be growing by leaps and bounds.

 

[twf]

30 hours a week of prep time just wouldn’t work for a priest. He has daily Mass, confessions, visitations, parish and often school administration, baptisms, funerals, catechesis, etc etc. Daily Mass and the need for a daily homily alone is a huge difference.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, and a number of them skip the daily homily, or make it about 3 sentences long, just reflecting on something in the day’s gospel. I’m actually impressed with how many priests actually bother to do the full 10 minute daily homily nowadays.

 

[PeterT]

Reading this thread, I’m not sure why many who are hypothesizing how it would be like if Catholic priests were allowed to marry (or if someone who was already married would be allowed to become a Catholic priest) are making comparisons with Protestant ministers when the closest facsimile would be the married priests of our Eastern-rite and Orthodox churches. Those churches don’t seem to have any issues with it.