Statistics About Pastors

[Diaconia]

Reading this thread, I’m not sure why many who are hypothesis how it would be like if Catholic priests were allowed to marry (or if someone who was already married would be allowed to become a Catholic priest) are making comparisons with Protestant ministers when the closet facsimile would be the married priests of our Eastern-rite and Orthodox churches. Those churches don’t seem to have any issues with it.

This is the most salient point to this [tangential] point of the thread.

In addition, the Church would and should look to the experience of deacons, the vast amount of which are married.

If the pool of priestly candidates included married men, seminaries could be pickier about admission, and bishops could be pickier about whom they are ordaining.

Consider also the fact that priests wouldn’t have to work 60 hours a week with all the problems that come from that, if there were more priests to cover the parishes.

Married priests work well in Eastern practice (Orthodox and Catholic), and married deacons are a blessing the Church could not exist in its present form without.

Deacon Christopher

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Based on your experience as a deacon, do you think it would work well to have, say, a married priest and a single celibate priest working together at the same parish? Are there any concerns with the single guy being stuck with more work because he doesn’t have the family responsibility?

Also, do you think we would still have significant numbers of single, celibate priests outside of the religious orders and FSSP/ ICKSP / other traditionalist circles, or would it gravitate towards the majority of priests being married?

 

[Diaconia]

No, there wouldn’t be problems with married and celibate priests working together.

It provides priestly fraternity for the celibate, who would have been alone otherwise; and both priests back each other up in emergencies, vacations and the like.

The married priest’s family has an additional good example of priestly life through the celibate, and often future vocations come from a priest’s family.

There might be interesting [good?] uses of large rectories where the married priest could live with his family, perhaps with the other priest, or the other priest might live separately.

In most dioceses there are vacant rectories, old convents, and the like.

There would continue to be plenty of celibate priests (both Religious and secular), and some of these men would become the future bishops.

Deacon Christopher

 

[Lenten_ashes]

So I was not really taking a shot at protestantism by saying our Mass is centered on Jesus in the Eucharist, not a 45 minute sermon.

Keep in mind, a sermon can be straight up fire – focused on Jesus and when you hear it you know the Spirit is directing it . Sometimes it was so excellent it gives you chills. But that same pulpit can also be used as a plea for money or whatever, not really focused on Jesus.

Whether you believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is legit or not, what can never be doubted is who the focus is always on.

So, since the beginning it’s always been Word and Sacrament. You, need both, imo. In fact, the Mass is invalid without a reading from the Holy Gospel.

 

[twf]

I agree that married deacons are a great blessing, but they still are non-existent in much of the Catholic world. I imagine parts of the world that are used to married deacons, such as the US, would adapt more easily to married priests. My archdiocese (Vancouver, Canada) only instituted a formation program for permanent deacons within the last decade. Sadly, many Catholics around the world have never met a deacon.

 

[Diaconia]

Yes, there is a diaconal shortage in our world, just as there is a priestly shortage.

But without the current deacons (the majority of which are from the USA) things would be EVEN more dire than they presently are.

Incidentally, the Council Fathers thought the diaconate would take off in Africa and South America, but nearly all deacons are from North America and Western Europe (with Germany leading the charge in the Continent).

Deacon Christopher

 

[adamhovey1988]

I hate to be that guy, and I know what you’re saying, but a friendly reminder that there are a couple of hundred married Catholic priests in the US, and many more elsewhere, such as Ukraine and Lebanon

 

[Tommy999]

Although most of the statistics in the article were not positive, it was good to see that over 90% of clergy feel called to the ministry and believe that they are where God wants them to be.

It’s good to know it’s more than just another job to those surveyed. I think parishioners can tell when clergy are just going through the motions, and vice versa.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yeah, I know. There are also some married Anglican Ordinariate priests around, one of whom in my area has young kids.

My main concern about using them as a yardstick is that their congregations, at least in my part of the US, seem significantly smaller than the average Latin Catholic parish. At the same time, their congregations are bigger than probably the majority of Protestant congregations.

So the next question is, why aren’t we as Latin Catholics hearing more about how the EC’s and Ordinariate handle all of the issues above?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think another factor is the “empty pulpit crisis” that they mentioned. Some Protestant ministers are awesome at preaching and evangelizing, but not so good at handling other aspects of their church, like interpersonal drama between themselves and longtime members. Plus, these churches may have a greater dependency on longtime members for helping with church stuff, often on a volunteer basis. Catholic parishes are generally big enough that losing a few people is not going to stop the show, and the only time I really see priests concerned is when the people leaving are major money donors or have some actual clout with the Bishop; both are rare.

I have heard a pastor of an independent church say that if he could find someone to take over pastoral duties, he would put all his efforts into evangelization, which he enjoys. He is the kind of guy who IMHO gets way too hung up over interpersonal stuff with his congregation, like if someone sent him a critical text message. Another pastor might be better able to just let that slide off.

 

[Tommy999]

That sounds similar to my lead pastor. He loves preaching, evangelizing, praying with and for parishioners, fellowshipping, leading pilgrimages to Israel, etc, and even called and chatted with me on my birthday. I was impressed by that because our church congregation has thousands of members. He just doesn’t enjoy the administrative part of the job.

As a result, they hired an assistant pastor to perform the administrative duties, which has freed the lead pastor to focus on other duties that are more in his wheelhouse, so to speak.

 

[JonNC]

I learned a lot from Dad. He loved the Church and his family. His faith was such a wonderful example. I wouldn’t change being a PK.

 

[lanman87]

Pastor burnout and family stress is a known issue. Many churches are taking steps to help the Pastor have more time with family and more time to “recharge”.

One of the best things I’ve seen is to have multiple pastors share the preaching/teaching duties and giving the lead pastor several preaching Sundays off during the year. At the church I attend we have a lead teaching Pastor who preaches about 3/4 of the time. The other 1/4 is split among a few of the other pastors. We also give the lead teaching pastor the entire month of July off from preaching duties so he can spend time with his family and spend time in prayer.

Of course, this is easier if you are in a larger church that has the ability to have multiple pastors. For a small rural church a single Pastor is the norm and he is expected to do just about everything.

 

[catholic03]

I understand. In Britain and former British colonies such as NZ, we simply say ‘parish priest’ (curate for an assistant priest). The word ‘vicar’ is used in England to refer to an CofE (Anglican) parish priest and some people in Britain and NZ say ‘vicar’ when referring to their Catholic priest. E.g. “my vicar Fr John Smith”.

 

[catholic03]

But without the current deacons (the majority of which are from the USA)

Why would you say that is, Deacon?

Maybe it is because of the unique character of America. Many faithful Catholic Americans want to enter holy orders, but the American ideals of patriotism and family may conflict with the celibate life. Maybe that is why the USA has the largest number of any country.

 

[catholic03]

I believe we only have one permanent deacon in our Archdiocese, which is the most important diocese in our country of almost 5 million people. In fact, our country has more people than Ireland and our main diocese has only 1 deacon!

 

[Peeps]

I understand that everything is centered around the Eucharist in Catholicism. I respect that. In my Protestant service, the focal point is the sermon.

Tommy999, I have Methodists in my family (my parents-in-law, who started going to a UMC several decades ago when they left the Assemblies of God).

I’ve been doing some research (under the tutelage of a professor) about church music history. I’ve discovered that Methodism, before it became an actual “church”, emphasized frequent, preferably DAILY, Holy Communion!

Yes, there were other emphases in early Methodism–being “holy” was the goal, and the way to get there was study of the Word of God, prayer, giving alms, MUSIC (the Wesleys wrote so many hymns, and wrote essays on what a “good” hymn is!), fellowship with other believers, and…frequent Communion of Jesus in the Eucharist!

Also, Methodism taught that Jesus was Truly Present in the Bread and Wine!

I think it’s sad that many in the UMC have departed so far from traditional Christianity and embraced sinful beliefs (e.g., acceptance of gay marriage).

Also, most of the Methodist churches that I know in my city and surrounding small towns have women pastors, and I have always found this incompatible with the Word of God

I am wondering if these statistics take women pastors into account. It seems to me that many of the questions are geared towards male pastors with families. Sexual issues are not generally a problem for many women (although I know, I know–there are exceptions and women who struggle with sexual temptation to masturbate, seek sexual gratification outside of marriage, seek our illicit sexual acts in their marriage, etc.). Perhaps I have missed something when I read through the questions and stats in the cited survey.

 

[Tommy999]

I’ve been doing some research (under the tutelage of a professor) about church music history. I’ve discovered that Methodism, before it became an actual “church”, emphasized frequent, preferably DAILY, Holy Communion!

Yes, the more conservative ones still have it often. At my local church, for example, holy communion is celebrated every week in one service, but around every two weeks in the other. I’ve heard of others that only celebrate once a month, but each congregation has leeway.

Also, Methodism taught that Jesus was Truly Present in the Bread and Wine!

The liturgy still says, “May they become for us the body of blood of Christ…”

I think it’s sad that many in the UMC have departed so far from traditional Christianity and embraced sinful beliefs (e.g., acceptance of gay marriage).

Me, too, although the official UMC position still is that gay marriage is inconsistent with Biblical Christianity, or something to that effect. The day that UMC embraces that teaching will be the day I am no longer a Methodist.

Also, most of the Methodist churches that I know in my city and surrounding small towns have women pastors, and I have always found this incompatible with the Word of God

Yes, there are a few UMC congregations where I live that have pastors who are women . At my large congregation, there are no women pastors currently, but there used to be an assistant pastor who is a woman. She moved after a year or so to a small town to a small congregation of her own. When she was at our church, she was the minister who specialized in greeting the congregation and guests at the beginning of service and made announcements, but otherwise didn’t preach unless the lead pastor wasn’t there and it was her turn in the rotation (there were about 3 or 4 others who took turns when the lead pastor didn’t preach).

While I prefer male pastors because I am more of a traditionalist (my wife thinks I am a chauvinist because I think this way), I’ve gotten used to hearing women pastors from time to time and have not experienced any less of the gospel message because a woman is doing the sermon. In fact, sometimes a woman’s perspective may add some new and valuable insights that a man might not think of in a sermon.

I know Catholicism does not have women priests, but they have “women religious”, like sisters and nuns, if I understand correctly that are considered in high regard. I am interested in knowing where in the Bible that God prohibits a woman from being a pastor. Maybe I can point that out to my lead pastor, who might tell me to mind my own business, lol.

By the way, Peeps, I’ve read some of your posts. Just curious… did you used to be on CAF under a different pseudonym name in the past? You sound very familiar. By the way, I often liked your comments in the past if you are the same person I am thinking of. If not, please disregard.

 

[Peeps]

I know Catholicism does not have women priests, but they have “women religious”, like sisters and nuns, if I understand correctly that are considered in high regard. I am interested in knowing where in the Bible that God prohibits a woman from being a pastor. Maybe I can point that out to my lead pastor, who might tell me to mind my own business, lol.

I was raised in the Conference Baptist denomination, and I’m not sure if they still forbid women from being ordained as pastors–they did back when I was growing up!

I don’t think that the Bible forbids women from preaching and teaching, although my denomination used Paul’s comments about women to justify not allowing them to be ordained. (I don’t think it’s good to use historical precedent to justify a teaching. Another example of this would be the teaching for women to cover their heads in the church–this is totally out of context and disregards the historical reason why Paul gave these instructions to Christian women in Corinth.)

I think it is unwise for a woman to be in a position in Christ’s church where she is the HEAD authority over men.

I have no objection to a woman choir director who is in authority over men–I grew up with this, and she had musical chops to be in charge of the choir!

I have no objection to a woman heading up various committees when she has the expertise and wisdom to be the best leader.

I have no objection to a woman teaching a class where men are among the students, or to a woman preaching a message (sermon, homily).

But a woman PASTOR–someone who will counsel men in her office, or visit men in the hospital, or discipline a man who has done something that hurts the Church and brought shame to the Gospel of Christ–I can’t accept that and I don’t think it’s proper or wise. I think that women have quite enough ministries in and out of the Church open to them, not to mention that they may become mothers and raise up children to love and serve God.

Tommy999, I’m sure you know that women priests are an impossibility in the Catholic Church. The apostles, chosen by Christ, were all men. Many women helped with His ministry, but the apostles who established the Church were all men. I think that this model of the Church is what Christ intended from the very beginning–Jacob had twelve SONS who became the patriarchs of Judaism. Jacob also had daughters, but none of them were selected to be the patriarchs.

But as you said, there are plenty of opportunities in the Catholic Church for women to serve in leadership roles and use their gifts, talents, skills, and abilities to bring glory to God.

 

[dochawk]

Even though we have but one priest, and he is our pastor, I’ve never heard him called, “Pastor,” but only by, “Father (Last Name),” which has been the policy here since the forties. Although we’ve been very close to most of them, we’ve never used their first names.

I have never heard a Catholic priest referred to as “Pastor Walsh”, or whatever. I kind of think that it would be offensive and insulting . . .

“my pastor” or “the pastor” distinguish him from the other priests; it’s not part of a name.

Also, note that in the East the use of the first name is the norm (Father Joe, Bishop Fred, etc.). When you see an EC or EO bishop referred to by last name, it tips you off that the author isn’t familiar with his subject matter . . .

It would be interesting to know the scope of pastors who contributed to the stats. For instance, were certain denominations included or excluded or was the study a representative cross-section of American Protestant clergy.

Even more important (speaking as a Statistics professor) is how the sampling was done. Mailing surveys and hoping some come back is an atrocious way of gathering data, which skews towards those that, whether malcontent or otherwise, are answering to be heard . . .

But I have also wondered if allowing priests to marry would help decrease the amount of sex scandal in the Church.

The statistics say no. While the RCC gets most of the press, when the statistics were compiled, RC actually had the lowest (but still far to high) rate of any US church. Also, the rate was higher fro married than unmarried Protestant clergy.