Statues: Biblical or Unbiblical?

[vsedriver]

OK, I’ve been to the Vatican, I’ve seen this statue. I have a fine arts degree which means I’ve studied art history. There is NO STATUE OF JUPITER in the Vatican. This is a statue representing St. Peter made long after the fall of the Roman Empire and during the rise of Christianity. When the faithful kiss the foot of St. Peter they are showing love and respect for ST. PETER. Not a piece of bronze. Not a god. Do you think it is wrong to show respect and love for a real man who was loved by Christ, who died for Christ? Who has written Sacred Scripture?

I dont worship my piano as god, so that means its a great thing to bow to the thousands of graven images provided by the church. Hey, i didnt write the commandments. Its not me who you have to convince breaking the 2nd command is a wonderful thing.But i do believe that using material things to aid in worship keeps you from a relation with the invisible god

.

Do you not love the saints and prophets? If you love your mother and you kiss her picture are you worshiping a graven image? If you love those who loved Christ and you kiss their picture are you worshiping stone, wood, bronze or paint?

Are we not called to love one another? Does this love end when we die? Are we no longer called to love St. Peter, The Blessed Virgin, St. John the Baptist? Do you no longer love your dead relatives?

Please don’t confuse the object with the PERSON the object represents. Please don’t confuse love and respect with worship and adoration. The Mass is where Catholics worship and give adoration to God. For Christians who don’t have the Mass it is hard for them to know when Catholics are worshiping and when they are honoring.

 

[patrick457]

Praying, kneeling, incense , repeated prayer, poems, songs, adoration.

Is that worship? It’s really up to interpretation.

That’s a crucial distinction. In Catholic parlance, ‘worship’ means the sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ in the Mass. All the praying, singing, kneeling etc. may be components of worship or veneration, but they themselves are not in and of themselves ‘worship’ or ‘veneration’. We don’t offer a sacrifice to an icon in the name of an icon.

 

[vsedriver]

Praying, kneeling, incense , repeated prayer, poems, songs, adoration.

Is that worship? It’s really up to interpretation.

no, it is up to understanding. All that glitters is not gold.

I guess those are OK, except that i heard that repeated prayer is vain

So, is it “repetitions” that are bad or was Our Lord speaking of “vain repetitions,” vainglory, and frivolousness? Was Our Lord wrong for praying the same prayer more than once, using the same words, in the Garden of Gethsemani? Are the angels in Heaven wrong for singing the Sanctus (“Holy, Holy, Holy”) all day and night, without ceasing? Is it wrong to say the Lord’s Prayer twice in a row?

.Im not accusing anyone , in here, of worshiping statues. Im here to find out why people make and bow to the work of their hands and why the practice is supported by a major “christian” religion.

People like to have reminders of the people they love. You are confusing the object with what the object represents. In a religion as old as Catholicism having a picture or a statue helped tell the story of Christ and his followers since the vast majority of people couldn’t read and there were no printing presses to mass produce holy scripture.

So once again… just because it ‘looks’ like worship doesn’t mean it is worship.

 

[patrick457]

OK, I’ve been to the Vatican, I’ve seen this statue. I have a fine arts degree which means I’ve studied art history. There is NO STATUE OF JUPITER in the Vatican. This is a statue representing St. Peter made long after the fall of the Roman Empire and during the rise of Christianity. When the faithful kiss the foot of St. Peter they are showing love and respect for ST. PETER. Not a piece of bronze. Not a god. Do you think it is wrong to show respect and love for a real man who was loved by Christ, who died for Christ? Who has written Sacred Scripture?

There’s actually a recent thread on this. For now I’d say that the statue is most likely actually medieval in origin - so it’s unlikely to be a likeness of ol’ father Jove. Why would a medieval artist create a statue of a pagan deity that would be identified as a Christian saint? Besides, that statue of St. Peter hasn’t got the flowing hair or the thunderbolt that Zeus/Jupiter has.

Also, the Eastern Churches have a more comprehensive theology on icons (I think) than the West has on images. After all, the Iconoclast controversy sprung in the East. Why not ask them as well?

 

[vsedriver]

There’s actually a recent thread on this. For now I’d say that the statue is most likely actually medieval in origin - so it’s unlikely to be a likeness of ol’ father Jove. Why would a medieval artist create a statue of a pagan deity that would be identified as a Christian saint? Besides, that statue of St. Peter hasn’t got the flowing hair or the thunderbolt that Zeus/Jupiter has.

Also, the Eastern Churches have a more comprehensive theology on icons (I think) than the West has on images. After all, the Iconoclast controversy sprung in the East. Why not ask them as well?

Anyone who has ever studied art history would be able to tell you that statues of Jupiter didn’t have halos or keys.

 

[patrick457]

Anyone who has ever studied art history would be able to tell you that statues of Jupiter didn’t have halos or keys.

Exactly. Neither does Zeus/Jupiter wear a tunic with a mantle: he is either naked or draped only with a toga.

BTW, there is a legend which says that the statue was made during the time of Pope St. Leo the Great after Attila’s attempt to sack Rome, and that the bronze used for this statue was originally that of Jupiter Capitolinus (which may be where this idea comes from). But as mentioned, the oldest historical information about the work dates back only to the 15th century and is more likely a late 13th-century work by Arnolfo di Cambio.

 

[patrick457]

So, is it “repetitions” that are bad or was Our Lord speaking of “vain repetitions,” vainglory, and frivolousness? Was Our Lord wrong for praying the same prayer more than once, using the same words, in the Garden of Gethsemani? Are the angels in Heaven wrong for singing the Sanctus (“Holy, Holy, Holy”) all day and night, without ceasing? Is it wrong to say the Lord’s Prayer twice in a row?

Battalogein, ‘to stammer’, ‘to stutter’, ‘to babble’, ‘to speak gibberish,’ ‘to use many words’.

After driving out the demon, hang around N. an amulet, which the patient puts on after the expulsion of the demon, with these things written on a tin metal leaf: BOR PHOR PHORBA PHOR PHORBA BES CHARIN BAUBA TE PHOR BORPHORBA PHORBABOR BAPHORBA PHABRAIE PHORBA PHARBA PHORPHOR PHORBA BOBORBORBA PAMPHORBA PHORPHOR PHORBA, protect N.

=====

"*Hail, O Lord, Great Power, Great Might, King, Greatest of gods, Helios, the Lord of heaven and earth, God of gods: mighty is your breath; mighty is your strength, O Lord. If it be your will, announce me to the supreme god, the one who has begotten and made you: that a man –

I, _______ whose mother is _______ who was born from the mortal womb of _______ and from the fluid of semen, and who, since he has been born again from you today, has become immortal out of so many myriads in this hour according to the wish of god the exceedingly good-- resolves to worship you, and prays with all his human power (that you may take along with you the horoscope of the day and hour today, which has the name THRAPSIARI MORIROK, that he may appear and give revelation during the good hours, EORO RORE ORRI ORlOR ROR ROI OR REORORI EOR EOR EOR EORE!).*"

 

[kimberly87]

Hello to the art history experts. Of course the faithful want to believe all is well with their particular religion. Its known history that the CC in the beginning took pagan statues and renamed them. Tamuz is now Mary with child. Its all in the history books. Its also most well known Jupiter is now Peter. To the art historian that didnt know the halo is from Roman pagan religion, is it too late to get your money back?

 

[kimberly87]

VSdriver my friend, you got me.Ill have to admit, when Jesus said not to do vain repititions, he was just kidding. its the most glorious thing to repeat prayer, so god will hear us for our much speaking.

 

[patrick457]

Hello to the art history experts. Of course the faithful want to believe all is well with their particular religion. Its known history that the CC in the beginning took pagan statues and renamed them. Tamuz is now Mary with child. Its all in the history books. Its also most well known Jupiter is now Peter. To the art historian that didnt know the halo is from Roman pagan religion, is it too late to get your money back?

Two words. So what?

A little food for thought here.

Ancient Israelite religion, aside from a few distinctive characteristics, was not really different from that of other West Semitic religions in general. In Exodus for instance, God commands Moses to construct altars for the Tabernacle: the golden altar of incense and the brazen altar of sacrifice. Curiously, these altars have horns in them. The dig is, horned altars are not unique to the Israelites. In many archeological digs in the Holy Land, a number horned altars have been found, many of them unrelated to Israel.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1504/ekronironiihornedaltars.jpg
Horned altars from Iron Age-II (10th-6th centuries BC) Ekron, modern-day Tel Miqne.

http://www.bibleplaces.com/images/Beersheba_four_horned_altar,_tbq110702.jpg
An altar at Beersheba, probably connected to a temple or cult center in the city. When Tel Be’er-Sheva was first excavated, archeologists discovered sandstone blocks in the walls of storehouses - most of the blocks used in the ancient city was made of limestone. They eventually took these blocks and reconstructed the altar, as shown here. It is thought that the altar was dismantled during the reforms of King Hezekiah in circa 8th century BC.

Plus, sacrifice of animals and incense ain’t really a unique custom to the sons of Israel. Also, we have the Ark of the Covenant, functioning both as the receptacle of the Law and God’s portable throne-chair: well, we do have gods and Pharaohs in Ancient Egypt who are carried around in box-like litters or shrines too. Some find a parallel between the cherubim on the kapporet - loosely paraphrased as ‘mercy-seat’ - and the winged humans/human-animal hybrids/animals usually seen flanking or overshadowing the thrones of kings and gods in the Ancient Near East and Ancient Egypt as well (sometimes they are seen riding on them as well).

The Temple of Solomon sports many features which are also present in other Ancient Near Eastern temples, in part due to the Tyrian workers and craftsmen who helped built it: say, that ‘cherubim-palm tree-flower’ motif that decorated the interior walls, or the idea of having two big pillars in front of the entrance themselves. In layout, appearance and iconography, it would not have looked that much different from any other temple you can see in other areas. The Temple has for example the private, innermost sanctuary usually dubbed in scholarly parlance the adyton (Hebrew: debir) usually containing the cult image of the deity being worshipped inside the edifice (in the case of the Israelites, the one contained inside the the ‘Holy of Holies’ is the box which also served as the throne of their unseen God), a rectangular room called the cella (Hebrew: heikal), and a pronaos (aka ulam) or an outer hallway. A courtyard surrounding the god’s house, marked with stones, is also one common feature.

All of the elements I have mentioned also exist among other, ‘pagan’ ANE cultures, but they are not in itself ‘evil’ or ‘satanic’ just because they were used by these peoples. The lesson is: ‘pagan’ usually does not automatically equal ‘evil’. Ultimately I don’t care whether the symbol of the eye or the image of a mother and child or cross-like geometric shapes were used in other pre-Christian cultures. I think G.K. Chesterton summed it best.

It is often said by the critics of Christian origins that certain ritual feasts, processions or dances are really of pagan origin. They might as well say that our legs are of pagan origin. Nobody ever disputed that humanity was human before it was Christian; and no Church manufactured the legs with which men walked or danced, either in a pilgrimage or a ballet. What can really be maintained, so as to carry not a little conviction, is this: that where such a Church has existed it has preserved not only the processions but the dances; not only the cathedral but the carnival. One of the chief claims of Christian civilisation is to have preserved things of pagan origin. In short, in the old religious countries men continue to dance; while in the new scientific cities they are often content to drudge.

 

[patrick457]

But when this saner view of history is realised, there does remain something more mystical and difficult to define. Even heathen things are Christian when they have been preserved by Christianity. Chivalry is something recognisably different even from the virtus of Virgil. Charity is something exceedingly different from the plain pity of Homer. Even our patriotism is something more subtle than the undivided love of the city; and the change is felt in the most permanent things, such as the love of landscape or the love of woman. To define the differentiation in all these things will always be hopelessly difficult. But I would here suggest one element in the change which is perhaps too much neglected; which at any rate ought not to be neglected; the nature of a vow. I might express it by saying that pagan antiquity was the age of status; that Christian mediaevalism was the age of vows; and that sceptical modernity has been the age of contracts; or rather has tried to be, and has failed.

 

[kimberly87]

You are correct. A mans worth is in his word. Is his word reliable?

 

[TEPO]

Hello to the art history experts. Of course the faithful want to believe all is well with their particular religion. Its known history that the CC in the beginning took pagan statues and renamed them. Tamuz is now Mary with child. Its all in the history books. Its also most well known Jupiter is now Peter. To the art historian that didnt know the halo is from Roman pagan religion, is it too late to get your money back?

That’s good… I support renaming and regaining pagan statues as Catholic. The Church has always allowed itself to adapt to the various traditions and cultures of different people -that way it helps people to be able to relate better with the truth… Because sometimes the truth is hard to swallow. For others it’s down right painful.

 

[TEPO]

You are correct. A mans worth is in his word. Is his word reliable?

Not exclusively… Actions speak louder than words.

 

[TEPO]

VSdriver my friend, you got me.Ill have to admit, when Jesus said not to do vain repititions, he was just kidding. its the most glorious thing to repeat prayer, so god will hear us for our much speaking.

So how are we supposed to pray then? By rambling on about whatever comes to mind, as if God doesn’t already know?

The truth about Catholic prayer is that it’s less about the words, and more about the Spiritual connection… When we “say” the rosary, we’re actually supposed to be meditating on the “Mysteries”. It’s actually much more spiritual than it is verbal -of course, this doesn’t fit into what a lot of non-Catholics would like to believe… To them, we’re just babbling.

(if they only knew…. )

Here’s what some ignorant people attempt to portray… jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/vain_repetitions.htm

 

[pablope]

Praying, kneeling, incense , repeated prayer, poems, songs, adoration.

I guess those are OK, except that i heard that repeated prayer is vain.

.

All repeated prayer is vain? Is praying continously for the healing of a sick child…do you consider this vain?

When praying for a job…continously praying for God to grant it…is this considered vain repetition?

In 2 Cor 12…St. Paul says…7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.

Let me ask…is St. Paul being vain for praying three times to plead with the Lord?

Or in Matt 26…44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

The Lord prayed the same thing for three times…is He being vain for repeating the same prayer three times?

So is all repeated prayer vain?

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

My vote is biblical. Some thoughts:

  I am reminded of a story I once heard from a traveling priest.  He mentioned touring the church he was to celebrate mass at the next day and he noticed a group of children praying to the statue of Mary.  
 Upon further inspection, he realized that it was a collective statue of the Fatima children and Our Lady of Fatima.  
 He couldn't resist commenting to the tour guide: "What a religion! Not only do we worship statues, but our statues worship statues!"
 Of course Catholics do not worship statues, but fellow Catholics will get a laugh out of this story.

Common Misconceptions

 As a Catholic, I know that a very common misconcetion about Catholics is the belief that they worship statues. 

 The most common bible verse our protestant brothers and sisters will use in their defense is: 

                    You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of
                      anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, 
                     or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to 
                                                 them or serve them (Ex. 20:4-5).  

 Yet our brothers and sisters forget to mention a verse in the bible (in Exodus, none the less) that mentions God commanding the building of statues in a religious worship context:

                And you shall make two cherubim of gold of hammered work shall you 
                make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the 
                one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat
                shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread 
               out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings,
               their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the
                                                  cherubim be (Ex. 25:18-20).

**
In An Aide of Prayer **

 I don't know about your family, but I know that around my house, the walls are full of pictures depecting loved ones who are alive, or have left this world.  Never in a million years would someone walk into my house and declare that I was worshiping those pictures.  Yet they do the same for the images of Mary, Jesus, and the Saints that are also in my house.
 When one hangs a crucifix on the wall by no means does he believe "Oh my! This is the true Christ hanging on my wall!" No! He believes that this image of Christ crucified will remind him of the true Christ in Heaven - the crucifix serving as an aide in prayer.
 God did ban the worship of statues.  But He did not ban the making of them, otherwise where would the great photos, statues by famous sculptors and paintings be?  
  Christ revealed himself to us in a tangible form (His body here on earth in human form and His body now under the veil of bread and wine).  Since these tangible forms were given, common sense leads us to the conclusion that we are able to use these images to bring oursevles closer to God.

**So, In Conclusion… **
Thus, in an answer to the question “Do Catholics worship statues?” the answe is No. Infact, the Catholic Church condems idolatry and similar pratices.
What those who question Catholic action fail to realize is the difference between seeing a statue as a god or seeing a statue as a visual reminder of the true presence in Heaven.

 

[pablope]

Hello to the art history experts. Of course the faithful want to believe all is well with their particular religion. Its known history that the CC in the beginning took pagan statues and renamed them. Tamuz is now Mary with child. Its all in the history books. Its also most well known Jupiter is now Peter.

To the art historian that didnt know the halo is from Roman pagan religion,QUOTE]Where did you get this from? From Hislop? Dave Hunt? Boettner?

newprotestants.com/2babylons.htm

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Research Methodology

By Ralph Woodrow

This article can be found in the Christian Research Journal Volume22/ Issue 2 2000 Book Reviews 54-56

Many preferred my book over The Two Babylons because it was easier to read and understand. Sometimes the two books were confused with each other, and once I even had the experience of being greeted as “Reverend Hislop”! As time went on, however, I began to hear rumblings that Hislop was not a reliable historian, I heard this from a history teacher and in letters from people who heard this perspective expressed on the Bible Answer Man radio program. Even the Worldwide Church of God began to take a second look at the subject. As a result, I realized I needed to go back through Hislop’s work, my basic source, and prayerfully check it out… I realized that no recognized history book substantiated these and many other claims.

While seeking to condemn the paganism of Roman Catholicism, Hislop produced his own myths. By so doing, he theorized that Nimrod, Adonis, Apollo, Attes, Ball-zebub, Bacchus, Cupid, Dagon, Hercules, Januis, Linus, Lucifer, Mars, Merodach, Thithra, Molock, Narcissus, Oannes, Oden, Orion, Osiris, Pluto, Saturn, Teitan, Typhon, Vulcan, Wodan, and Zoraster were all one and the same. By mixing myths, Hislop supposed that Semiramis was the wife of Nimrod and was the same as Aphrodite, Artemis, Astarte, Aurora, Bellona, Ceres, Diana, Easter, Irene, Iris, Juno, Mylitta, Proserpine, Rhea, Venus, and Vesta.

If finding a pagan parallel provides proof of paganism, the Lord Himself would be pagan. The woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand; the Lord has a cup in His hand (Ps. 78:8). Pagan kings sat on thrones and wore crowns; the Lord sits on a throne and wears a crown (Rev. 1:4; 14:14) Pagans worshipped the sun; the Lord is called the “Sun of Righteousness” (Mal. 4:2), Pagan gods were likened to stars; the Lord is called “the bright and Morning star” (Rev. 22:16). Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them; the Lord has a temple (Rev. 7:15). Pagans built a high tower in Babylon; the Lord is a high tower (2 Sam. 22:3). Pagans worshipped idolatrous pillars; the Lord appeared as a pillar of fire (Exod. 13:21-22). Pagan gods were pictured with wings; the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4).

is it too late to get your money back?/

 

[TEPO]

My vote is biblical. Some thoughts:

  I am reminded of a story I once heard from a traveling priest.  He mentioned touring the church he was to celebrate mass at the next day and he noticed a group of children praying to the statue of Mary.  
 Upon further inspection, he realized that it was a collective statue of the Fatima children and Our Lady of Fatima.  
 He couldn't resist commenting to the tour guide: "What a religion! Not only do we worship statues, but our statues worship statues!"
 Of course Catholics do not worship statues, but fellow Catholics will get a laugh out of this story.

Common Misconceptions

 As a Catholic, I know that a very common misconcetion about Catholics is the belief that they worship statues. 

 The most common bible verse our protestant brothers and sisters will use in their defense is: 

                    You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of
                      anything that is in heaven above, ***or that is in the earth beneath, 
                     or that is in the water under the earth***: you shall not bow down to 
                                                 them or serve them (Ex. 20:4-5).  

 Yet our brothers and sisters forget to mention a verse in the bible (in Exodus, none the less) that mentions God commanding the building of statues in a religious worship context:

                And you shall make two cherubim of gold of hammered work shall you 
                make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the 
                one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat
                shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread 
               out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings,
               their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the
                                                  cherubim be (Ex. 25:18-20).

**
In An Aide of Prayer **

 I don't know about your family, but I know that around my house, the walls are full of pictures depecting loved ones who are alive, or have left this world.  Never in a million years would someone walk into my house and declare that I was worshiping those pictures.  Yet they do the same for the images of Mary, Jesus, and the Saints that are also in my house.
 When one hangs a crucifix on the wall by no means does he believe "Oh my! This is the true Christ hanging on my wall!" No! He believes that this image of Christ crucified will remind him of the true Christ in Heaven - the crucifix serving as an aide in prayer.
 God did ban the worship of statues.  But He did not ban the making of them, otherwise where would the great photos, statues by famous sculptors and paintings be?  
  Christ revealed himself to us in a tangible form (His body here on earth in human form and His body now under the veil of bread and wine).  Since these tangible forms were given, common sense leads us to the conclusion that we are able to use these images to bring oursevles closer to God.

**So, In Conclusion… **
Thus, in an answer to the question “Do Catholics worship statues?” the answe is No. Infact, the Catholic Church condems idolatry and similar pratices.
What those who question Catholic action fail to realize is the difference between seeing a statue as a god or seeing a statue as a visual reminder of the true presence in Heaven.

The blue highlighted section above – does that mean I have to get rid of my Big Mouth Billy Bass, wall mounted singing fish…? I’ve gotten hours of joy and laughter out of that rascally fish…. D)

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

The blue highlighted section above – does that mean I have to get rid of my Big Mouth Billy Bass, wall mounted singing fish…? I’ve gotten hours of joy and laughter out of that rascally fish…. D)