Status of the SSPX

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Defensor Fidei:
It was never in the middle in the first place. Having the tabernacle in the center of the altar table is not standard, never has been, never will be. When you go to Europe you will see multiple tabernacles in the basillicas in side chapels. This is not because of tourism. Just those of us old enough here who grew up with tabernacle prensent on the altar or table behind the altar, have some crazy idea that this is a long standing tradition. The tabernacle in and of itself has not been around forever either.

So to ask to put it back is really not accurate.

-Ted
Consider this: The case of a church built in America in the early 20th Century, with the tabernacle in the center of the High Altar. Then, in the late 60’s and early 70’s, the High Altar is ripped out and the tabernacle removed to a side chapel, or even worse, shoved off into a corner as an afterthought. In place of the old High Altar, in the center of the sanctuary, the priest’s (presider’s?) chair is placed, looking like a throne. Thankfully, I’ve only seen this arrangement two times in my diocese and I’ve never seen it in a newly constructed church.

You can understand how, in that situation at least, some people might take offense? In the place where the Creator used to dwell, we now have the Creature.

Don’t get me wrong. I’ve seen some beautiful side chapels that house the tabernacle in American churches. Very conducive to prayer. But you must realize if it has been your custom to have the Blessed Sacrament in the center of the sanctuary, a side chapel does seem like a “demotion.”
 
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kmktexas:
Even then, wouldn’t you be trading one “illicit” but valid Mass for another illicit but valid Mass.

The examples I thought of were if the only approved Mass that one could attend used invalid matter for the Consecration or was one where the priest changed the words of the Consecration. In this case you would be trading a “highly illicit and probably invalid”
Mass for one that was vaid but illicit.

Another case of morally impeded might be a teen who had to chose between obeying his or her SSPX-attending parents and attending an “approved” Mass without permission.

TNT, any better?
Much better!
Now if I could get my wife, who is an SSPX attendee, to demand that I attend, instead of an indult, I could go to Mass with her, and not feel "schismatic…Jansenist…SSPXist…Lefebrevist, etc. and, not feel so, so separated…from her.
 
Catholic29 said:
SSPX and Lefebvrite = One and the same.

I also believe the term Lefebvrite is…TOO hard to spell! If A=B =C, then A=C… SSPX is ok for me, but you’ll know what I mean since they are equal, or redundant when combined.


Thanks.
I guess it would be fair to say the Lefebrevist “subsists in” the SSPX… or, better to say the SSPX “is” the Lefebrevist.
I’m soo confused.
 
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bear06:
It’s not that hard to fall into schism. You don’t have to fully remove your submission either. Full or partial is schism.
Kinda like the dentist…full or partial bridge, either way, you been “bridged”.
Falling into schism is like a man falling in love…with the wrong woman. So, I can relate how “It’s not that hard to fall…” JPII’s “Personalism” and “Phenomenology” in effect.
These VATII words are killing my spelling scores.
 
**Defensor Fidei:
It was never in the middle in the first place. Having the tabernacle in the center of the altar table is not standard, never has been, never will be. When you go to Europe you will see multiple tabernacles in the basillicas in side chapels. This is not because of tourism. Just those of us old enough here who grew up with tabernacle prensent on the altar or table behind the altar, have some crazy idea that this is a long standing tradition. The tabernacle in and of itself has not been around forever either.

So to ask to put it back is really not accurate.

Defensor Fidei, You say the tabernacle was NEVER in the center in the first place. I do not know why you said that. YOU ARE WRONG!

During the 40s the tabernacle was in the center of the altar all over Texas. Then I started traveling (USAF) all the following had the tabernacle in the center -Denver, Washington D.C., Corona, CA , Riverside, CA ,de Capistrano, CA : on into the 60s we saw the tabernacle in the center of the altar in Baton Rouge,LA , Houston,Texas , Austin, Texas , Corpus Christi, Texas and Brownsville, Texas. In all these places the tabernacle was in the center of the altar. So I do not know why Defensor Fidei says it was never in the center. It was in the center. How do I know? I was there, I saw it and now I speak. Maybe DF is a young man and never saw what I saw.
I say you were wrong because I was there, I saw the tabernacle in the center of the High Altar. There is no dispute. All you can do is say you made a mistake. Why else would you say the tabernacle was always off center. If you ignore this then you are agreeing with me.
 
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Fogny:
I point out that Luther,Cramner, and other Schismatics who are “Protestants” denied the real presence of Christ in the Euchurist as their Heresy was believing only in a spiritual communion as in “spiritual drink” which was condemed by the Council of Trent. The SSPX have never commited that heresy.
The ICEL cannot claim that.

Fogny
I agree the Lefebvrites(SSPX) have never denied the real presence(transubstantiation), nor have the Eastern Orthodox, and Rome recognizes they have a valid priesthood and episcopal succession. Yet they remain just as much in schism, though that doesn’t mean their Eucharists are invalid, which they are. And yes the “Protestants” of Luther, Cramner and others do not believe in the real presence, nor have they ever claimed to.
The ICEL cannot claim that
As for ICEL, they are an international committee appointed to translate the Mass into the vernacular(english), and they are not the Church. Which comes down to the question of validity for the Mass of Pope Paul VI, which can in fact be answered with an emphatic YES, it is valid! And before we get into Quo Primum, Bugninni and the Protestants, I ask that you read the response in this post forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=35146

So how can Rome be in schism from itself?:confused:
 
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Catholic29:
I agree the Lefebvrites(SSPX) have never denied the real presence(transubstantiation), nor have the Eastern Orthodox, and Rome recognizes they have a valid priesthood and episcopal succession. Yet they remain just as much in schism, though that doesn’t mean their Eucharists are invalid, which they are. And yes the “Protestants” of Luther, Cramner and others do not believe in the real presence, nor have they ever claimed to.

As for ICEL, they are an international committee appointed to translate the Mass into the vernacular(english), and they are not the Church. Which comes down to the question of validity for the Mass of Pope Paul VI, which can in fact be answered with an emphatic YES, it is valid! And before we get into Quo Primum, Bugninni and the Protestants, I ask that you read the response in this post forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=35146

So how can Rome be in schism from itself?:confused:
As for the ICEL and approval, as far as I know Pope Paul VI approved the language of the Missali Romano, The faithful interpretation. If a Pope or Ecuminical Council has approved the exact wording of ICEL language would somebody please correct me.
The abuses of the ICEL have been denounced by the Council of Trent, St Thomas Aquinas, Pope Benedict XIV, St Alphonsus de Liquori, Ect.
The Church can not contradict itself in matters of faith and dogma.
For the above cited example of the word and concept of “Spiritual” in the Liturgy. The word was used in the context to deny the real presence by heretics and schismatics: Luther, Wycliff,Cramner and others and was denouced in any form by the Trent council as false and in error. Yet the ICEL has inserted “let this be a spiritual drink” There cannot exist both a truth and a falsity, it is either one or the other, it is a contradiction.
The solution is to call a Dogmatic Council and have these contradictions resolved.
This would resolve the differences between the liturgy of the ICEL and the Council of Trent.
As for the Church being in Schism with itself, in matters such as this a Ecuminical Council is called.

Fogny
 
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TNT:
Much better!
Now if I could get my wife, who is an SSPX attendee, to demand that I attend, instead of an indult, I could go to Mass with her, and not feel "schismatic…Jansenist…SSPXist…Lefebrevist, etc. and, not feel so, so separated…from her.
What ever happened to her being submissive? Is this another teaching that got thrown out the window?
 
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Fogny:
As for the ICEL and approval, as far as I know Pope Paul VI approved the language of the Missali Romano, The faithful interpretation. If a Pope or Ecuminical Council has approved the exact wording of ICEL language would somebody please correct me.
The abuses of the ICEL have been denounced by the Council of Trent, St Thomas Aquinas, Pope Benedict XIV, St Alphonsus de Liquori, Ect.
The Church can not contradict itself in matters of faith and dogma.
For the above cited example of the word and concept of “Spiritual” in the Liturgy. The word was used in the context to deny the real presence by heretics and schismatics: Luther, Wycliff,Cramner and others and was denouced in any form by the Trent council as false and in error. Yet the ICEL has inserted “let this be a spiritual drink” There cannot exist both a truth and a falsity, it is either one or the other, it is a contradiction.
The solution is to call a Dogmatic Council and have these contradictions resolved.
This would resolve the differences between the liturgy of the ICEL and the Council of Trent.
As for the Church being in Schism with itself, in matters such as this a Ecuminical Council is called.

Fogny
Pope Paul VI on Modernism (Encyclical Ecclesium Suam) written during the V2 Council.

"Was not the phenomenon of modernism, for example, which still crops up in the various attempts at expressing what is foreign to the authentic nature of the Catholic religion, an episode of abuse exercised against the faithful and genuine expression of the doctrine and criterion of the Church of Christ by psychological and cultural forces of the profane world? Now it seems to us that to check the oppressive and complex danger coming from many sides, a good and obvious remedy is for the Church to deepen her awareness of what she really is according to the Mind of Christ, as preserved in Sacred Scripture and in Tradition, and interpreted and developed by the authentic tradition of the Church. The Church is, as we now, enlightened and guided by the Holy Spirit, Who is still ready, if we implore Him and listen to Him, to fulfill without fail the promise of Christ: “The Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send on my account, will in His turn make everything plan, and recall to your minds everything I have said to you.”

Pope Paul VI contradicts the spirit of ICEL

Fogny
 
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Fogny:
So what exactly are you saying, that the rite of mass prior to V2 should be abolished?

So that Catholics are denied a Rite that endured for almost 2000 years, and was free from all error.
I heard Cardinal Arinze say yesterday that in the 16th century the Tridentine Mass was the Novus Ordo.

It is not 2000 years old and not called the Tridentine Mass without cause.
 
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katolik:
The SSPX isn’t Protestant. Fr.Levis of EWTN… says so…

Then please tell me why no one calls Catholics schismatics?
If the SSPX were true schismatics they would set up a parallel hierarchy in place of the Catholic Church’s. Like when the “Orthodox” set up diocese with out the Pope’s permission. Has the SSPX set up any separate dioceses?
They do have a hierarchy of their own… They have their own bishops and they ignore the jurisdicition of the Catholic bishop whose diocese they act in.

I would also add that the SSPX are not only schismatic but they are also teaching heresy.

They actively teach that one should not attend an indult mass as the priest how celebrates an indult acknowledges the validity of the normative mass of the Catholic Church. The SSPX denies the validity of the normative mass, they also deny Vatican II. By denying these two things they teach that the Catholic Chruch teaches error, that is a heresy. This is also another reason why if the idult was offered everywhere the SSPX Chapels would still be full.
 
:yup: :amen:

The SSPX became a schismatic sect when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre ignored the express ORDER from the Holy See that he not ordain anyone! However on June 30, 1988 Archbishop Lefebvre caused the rupture in the Church that continues to this day when he illicitly ordained 4 SSPX priests to the episcopacy!

I have one question WHO DOES ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE THANK HE IS?

The Holy Father ordered that these ordination NOT take place, yet Archbishop Lefebvre took it upon himself to disobey the Pope. When he followed through with these illicit ordinations he caused a schismatic act…which officially caused the SSPX’s break with Rome! Basically the Archbishop publically denounced his ties with the Church of Rome, by disobeying his Pontif!

But alas, we should not be suprised with stories such as these for in scripture we clearly read:

“Be on your guard against false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but underneath are wolves on the prowl.”~Matthew 7:15

“False prophets will rise in great numbers to mislead many.” ~Matthew 24:11

and of course one need only to read 2 Corinthians 11:1-15 to see what Paul said about “false Apostles”.

There is really nothing more to talk about…the only thing anyone needs to know is that the SSPX is a schismatic sect that has alienated itself from the true flock of Christ by gross and direct disobedience to the Holy See! We should pray for our brothers and sisters that are wrapped up in this warped sence of “traditionalism”, and pray that God give them the grace and courage to return to the 1 Fold with 1 Shepherd!

Just my thoughts again!

God bless you and Mary keep you,

Cody
 
Thank you-to have Our Lord shoved off to the side, I guess people felt to lazy to genuflect when they pass him-which no one does now anyway and you wonder why people question the real presence-this is all part of a slow, methodical ploy little by little-to Modernize and Protestanize the church. When it happens slowly people dont get crazy-but as these older churchs, as many are being closed to pay for the pedophiles let in by the liberals running the seminary, as orthodox candidates were shunned, the new churchs that are taking their place look like a basketball arena or something-round and scary
Dr. Bombay:
Consider this: The case of a church built in America in the early 20th Century, with the tabernacle in the center of the High Altar. Then, in the late 60’s and early 70’s, the High Altar is ripped out and the tabernacle removed to a side chapel, or even worse, shoved off into a corner as an afterthought. In place of the old High Altar, in the center of the sanctuary, the priest’s (presider’s?) chair is placed, looking like a throne. Thankfully, I’ve only seen this arrangement two times in my diocese and I’ve never seen it in a newly constructed church.

You can understand how, in that situation at least, some people might take offense? In the place where the Creator used to dwell, we now have the Creature.

Don’t get me wrong. I’ve seen some beautiful side chapels that house the tabernacle in American churches. Very conducive to prayer. But you must realize if it has been your custom to have the Blessed Sacrament in the center of the sanctuary, a side chapel does seem like a “demotion.”
 
With all due respect-the traditionalists use the same reasoning and scripture to back up their claim, especially the sedevacantist-As they claim that these false prophets (the Bishops, the Pope in the sede cases) will be preaching false doctrine foreign from all past church teachings (Vatican II, the Novus Ordo Mass, ecumenism, etc). The trads have as much of a point as you do in bashing Lefebrve-he Is actually adhering to past tried and true church doctrine and not inventing new, as Vatican II has done, according to the traditionalists. Pope John XXIII did open the council stating that the council was a Pastoral council, but the supporters of Vatican II are trying to reverse the Pope’s own words.

I am not a Lefebrve supporter, but there is much valid in what the traditionalists have to say, if you just let down your anger, treat them as upholders of the faith, and listen to their point of view.

My father used to say that in every arugument the truth usually lies somewhree in the middle-with the deciding factor slanted one way or another.

romeishome said:
:yup: :amen:

The SSPX became a schismatic sect when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre ignored the express ORDER from the Holy See that he not ordain anyone! However on June 30, 1988 Archbishop Lefebvre caused the rupture in the Church that continues to this day when he illicitly ordained 4 SSPX priests to the episcopacy!

I have one question WHO DOES ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE THANK HE IS?

The Holy Father ordered that these ordination NOT take place, yet Archbishop Lefebvre took it upon himself to disobey the Pope. When he followed through with these illicit ordinations he caused a schismatic act…which officially caused the SSPX’s break with Rome! Basically the Archbishop publically denounced his ties with the Church of Rome, by disobeying his Pontif!

But alas, we should not be suprised with stories such as these for in scripture we clearly read:

“Be on your guard against false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but underneath are wolves on the prowl.”~Matthew 7:15

“False prophets will rise in great numbers to mislead many.” ~Matthew 24:11

and of course one need only to read 2 Corinthians 11:1-15 to see what Paul said about “false Apostles”.

There is really nothing more to talk about…the only thing anyone needs to know is that the SSPX is a schismatic sect that has alienated itself from the true flock of Christ by gross and direct disobedience to the Holy See! We should pray for our brothers and sisters that are wrapped up in this warped sence of “traditionalism”, and pray that God give them the grace and courage to return to the 1 Fold with 1 Shepherd!

Just my thoughts again!

God bless you and Mary keep you,

Cody
 
guess people felt to lazy to genuflect when they pass him-which no one does now anyway and you wonder why people question the real presence-this is all part of a slow, methodical ploy little by little-to Modernize and Protestanize the church.
Bulldog,

i think there is a passage in the Bible that says something about how the “gates of hell will not prevail against…” the Church. But i dont know maybe you should check it out. one could say to you ye of little faith in the Church that Christ founded.

God Bless
 
bulldogCatholic, you wrote a great post. Thanks.

romeishome, You wrote,"There is really nothing more to talk about…the only thing anyone needs to know is that the SSPX is a schismatic sect that has alienated itself from the true flock of Christ by gross and direct disobedience to the Holy See! We should pray for our brothers and sisters that are wrapped up in this warped sence of “traditionalism”, and pray that God give them the grace and courage to return to the 1 Fold with 1 Shepherd!

Just my thoughts again!"

You have laid out your argument well. But all you have is a legalistic argument. Legally you are possibly correct. But are you correct spiritually?
Are these SSPX people unholy? Do you think that they are anti-Christ?
Let me say that I do not consider them “out of the fold”. I betcha’ God hears their prayers in the same way that God hears your prayers. Do you cinsider them as “untouchables”?
Let The Holy Spirit open your eyes and look beyond the legalistic concerns.
JMJ , Bless your heart.
 
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Exporter:
bulldogCatholic, you wrote a great post. Thanks.

You have laid out your argument well. But all you have is a legalistic argument. Legally you are possibly correct. But are you correct spiritually?
I don’t think I have been legalistic at all! Spiritually yes, I do believe that I am correct. Our dear brother Cyprian of Carthage said it well:
*“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). … On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was *, but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]). **
So, while Archbishop Lefebvre is an apostle by virtue of his ordination, there is only ONE Church, and ONE CHAIR! Regretably Archbishop Lefebvre does not, and did not ever sit upon the Chair of St. Peter! So, legally and Spiritually I am correct in saying that SSPX is in schism and they are not in the One Church with the ONE Chair, because Archbishop Lefebvre alientated himself and his organization from the Holy See! It is rather simple to see if you ask me!
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Exporter:
Are these SSPX people unholy? Do you think that they are anti-Christ?
I never said that the people that attend SSPX chaples are “unholy” that is your estimation…because I never said it! No, I don’t believe that they are “unholy”, however, I can not…nor will I abandon my position that the SSPX is a schismatic sect that is not part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!..no I don’t believe that the people of the SSPX are the “anti-christ” once again that is your estimation…I never said that!..However, I would be willing to say that the leaders of the SSPX may have some form of an “anti-christ” spirit! For any one that does not heed to the voice of the CHURCH, and the Chair of St. Peter turns also a deaf ear to Jesus Christ…because the Church is the BODY of CHRIST! We hear Jesus’ voice through the Church!
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Exporter:
Let me say that I do not consider them “out of the fold”. I betcha’ God hears their prayers in the same way that God hears your prayers.
I am sure God hears there prayers, however, either you are in the Ship…or your out! If you are not in communion with Rome…(the SSPX is NOT) then you are out of the fold…weather you realize this or not.
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Exporter:
Do you cinsider them as “untouchables”?
Let The Holy Spirit open your eyes and look beyond the legalistic concerns.
JMJ , Bless your heart.
No, I don’t consider them as “untouchables”, (whatever that means)…I consider them as being lead astray by bishops and priests that refuse to heed the voice of Rome! I believe that they can be saved…if they truely do not know that they are in schism. I would pray the same prayer…let the Holy Spirit open your eyes so that you can look beyond the lies of SSPX and the other sedevacantist sects and see the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that John Paul II is still the Pope, and that He is the Vicar of Christ on earth!

God Bless you and Mary keep you,

Cody*
 
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bear06:
What ever happened to her being submissive? Is this another teaching that got thrown out the window?
Come now, you cannot say that a man who has a prot, jew, etc. wife must submit their conscience to their husband.
In matters of Faith, the husband or anyone else cannot demand submission.
 
An overture from Cardinal Hoyos and Rome was made to the Society of Saint Piux X.Here is the Reply and position regarding
there situation by Bishop Fellay

SOCIETY OF SAINT PIUS X
Priorat Mariae Verkundigung Schloss Schwandegg
Menzingen, ZG, CH-6313 SWIZTERLAND

+Menzingen, 6 June 2004
H.E. Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos

*Most Reverend Eminence,

*"Your letter of December 30, a letter of greetings with the new proposal of an accord did indeed reach us. We have taken some time to answer because it leaves us perplexed. Allow me to respond with the greatest frankness, the only way of making progress.

We are sensitive to your efforts and those of the Holy Father to come to our aid, and we see that this overture on your part is certainly very generous. Accordingly, we are much afraid lest our attitude and our response not be understood. When we made our request that two conditions be met at the beginning of our discussions, and when we repeated that request several times, we were simply indicating a natural and necessary order to follow: before constructing a roadway on a bridge, one must lay its foundations. Otherwise the enterprise is doomed to failure. We do not see how we could arrive at a recognition without passing through a number of steps.

Among these steps, the first seems to us to be the lifting1 of the decree of excommunication. The excommunication applying to the Orthodox was lifted without their in any way changing their attitude towards the Holy See; would it not be possible to do something similar in our regard, for us who have never separated ourselves from the authority of the Supreme Pontiff, which we have always recognized as defined by Vatican Council I. At the time of our2 consecration in 1988 we took an oath of fidelity to the Holy See; we have always professed our attachment to the Holy See and the Sovereign Pontiff, we have taken all kinds of measures to show that we have no intention of erecting a parallel hierarchy: it should not be so difficult to cleanse us from the accusation of schism…

As regards the penalty for the reception of the episcopate, the Code of Canon Law of 1983 foresees that the maximum penalty should not be applied in the case where a subject has acted on the basis of a *subjective *necessity. If the Holy See does not want to admit that there was a state of objective necessity, it should at least admit that we perceive things in this way.

Such a measure would be recognized as a real overture on the part of Rome and would create the new climate necessary for any progress.

At the same time, the SSPX would submit itself to what we could by analogy call an ad limina visit. The Holy See could observe us and examine our development without there being any engagement of the two sides for the time being.

With respect to the formulas that you ask us to sign, they suppose a certain number of conditions that we cannot accept and that leave us very ill at ease.

The propositions suppose that we are guilty and that this guilt has separated us from the Church. In reparation, and to certify our orthodoxy, they ask us for a sort of limited profession of faith (Vatican Council II and the Novus Ordo).

Most of our priests and faithful have been directly confronted with heresy, and often faced with grave liturgical scandal coming from their own pastors, from bishops as well as priests. The whole history of our movement is marked by a tragic succession of events of this kind up to today, as we are joined by religious, seminarians, and priests who have had the same experience. You cannot exact a justified penalty or contrition because alone, abandoned by the pastors and betrayed by them, we have reacted to conserve the faith of our baptism or in order not to dishonor the divine Majesty. It is impossible to analyze the 1988 Consecrations without considering the tragic context in which they took place. Otherwise, things become incomprehensible and justice no longer has its due.

Furthermore, it is often said that our status would be a concession, and that we would be accorded a situation suitable to our *“special charism.”

*Must one recall that what we are attached to is the **common **patrimony of the Roman Catholic Church? We do not ask nor do we seek a special status as a mark of singularity, but we want a “normal” place in the Church. So long as the Tridentine Mass is considered a particular concession, we remain marginalized, in a precarious and suspect position. It is in this perspective that we claim a right that has never been lost: that of the Mass for everyone. To reduce this right to an indult (which certain Roman voices hold to be provisory) is already to diminish it. "

This is PART 1 (TEXT TOO LONG)

Kellam
 
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ByzCath:
They do have a hierarchy of their own… They have their own bishops and they ignore the jurisdicition of the Catholic bishop whose diocese they act in.

I would also add that the SSPX are not only schismatic but they are also teaching heresy.

They actively teach that one should not attend an indult mass as the priest how celebrates an indult acknowledges the validity of the normative mass of the Catholic Church. The SSPX denies the validity of the mass, they also deny Vatican II. By denying these two things they teach that the Catholic Chruch teaches error, that is a heresy. This is also another reason why if the idult was** normative** offered everywhere the SSPX Chapels would still be full.
There’s that normative again. I’m still waiting to find out if there is an ABnormative. If not, what is normative needed for, to compare to what?
Or is it another VATII word to kill my spelling score?
 
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