Status of the SSPX

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Attendance at SSPX for moral necessity? Hmmm…does it become a moral necessity when your bishops, like here in Orlando allow Lutherans to use facilities to ordain their bishops, film an Easter Mass on March 1st (I ask the diocese if in July they can have a Christmas Mass, unfortunitely no reply) 20+ days before Easter Sunday, neo-conservative priests are targeted by the diocese office, the diocese office supporting pro-abortion politicians, parishes use money to support groups like Call to Action, nuns give homilies, churches being built that don’t resemble churches, mission priests mock the faith in their sermons and make crude comments/jokes, allow women to serve at the altar despite pope’s in the past calling it an “evil practice” (I’m waiting to see what the diocese liturgicial director has to say about that), and not one diocese sanctioned Tridentine Mass or at the very least a Novus Ordo completely in Latin? Some pleaces you might have a little Latin - say a hymn maybe or even Agnus Dei. C’mon now. This is just the tip of the iceburg. It’s like picking your own poision in some ways.
 
This is Part 2 of the letter I posted above :

"In the current situation, where everything of a traditional savor immediately becomes suspect, we have need of a protector and defender of our interests in the Curia. It is more a question of representing Tradition at Rome than of establishing a delegate of the Holy See for traditional matters, as in the case of *Ecclesia Dei *today. In order for this organization to have some credibility and to correspond to its purpose, it is important that it be composed of members who belong to Catholic Tradition.

To achieve a “recognition” without having first resolved these questions in principle would be to doom the proposed “practical accord” to failure, for we hope to act tomorrow with the same fidelity to Catholic Tradition as we do today.

Wanting to maintain the frankness with which we address these questions (which is not a matter of arrogance or of lack of charity), we would be condemned tomorrow as we were yesterday.

At baptism a contract is established between the Christian soul and the Church: “what do you ask of the Church?” “The faith.” This is what we ask of Rome: that Rome confirm us in the Faith, the faith of all times, the immutable faith. We have the strict right to demand this of the Roman authorities. We do not believe that we can truly progress towards a “recognition” so long as Rome will not have shown its concrete intention to dissipate the cloud which has invaded the temple of God, obscured the faith and paralyzed the supernatural life of the Church under the cover of a Council and subsequent reforms.

In the hope that this letter may make its contribution to overcoming the current inertia we assure you, Eminence, of our daily prayers for the fulfillment of your heavy duty in this grave hour of Holy Mother Church."

*+Bernard Fellay

*TRANSLATOR FOOTNOTES

1 I.e., a declaration on the invalidity of the decree, for as Bishop Fellay points out later in the following paragraph, the 1983 Code of Canon Law is clear that neither Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop de Castro Mayer nor the four consecrated bishops of the SSPX were liable for any canonical penalties.

2 “our” refers to the four bishops of the SSPX, respectively, Bishops Fellay, Tissier de Mallerais, Williamson and de Galerreta.
 
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TNT:
There’s that normative again. I’m still waiting to find out if there is an ABnormative. If not, what is normative needed for, to compare to what?
Or is it another VATII word to kill my spelling score?
Despite what you wish, the normal Mass of the Latin Catholic Church is the Mass that occurs according to the Missal of the Church. The Mass you perfer is allowed by an Indult. This is no normal as there is only one Liturgy per Rite.

This was just another instance of the Vatican givening in to a vocal minority, just like communion in hand and female altar boys.
 
“The gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church!”
~Jesus Christ
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Kellam:
At baptism a contract is established between the Christian soul and the Church: “what do you ask of the Church?” “The faith.” This is what we ask of Rome: that Rome confirm us in the Faith, the faith of all times, the immutable faith. We have the strict right to demand this of the Roman authorities.
Rome is doing excatly that! Confirming the Christian Faithful in the True Faith of Jesus Christ that is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets! The Second Vatican Council was a Council of the Church, and failure to adhear to this council is grave matter! The Church speaks authoritativly through its councils…(i.e Jerusalem, Nicea, ect, ect…)

Here is another quote for those who adhear to Extreme “traditionalism”…

Once again it is our dear friend Cyprian of Carthage:
. . . There [in John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest, and the flock clinging to their shepherd in the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishops; and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priest of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and catholic, is not split or divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere to one another" (Letters 66[67]:8 [A.D. 253]).
So, what our dear friend is saying…some may withdraw from the Church, and the Holy See of St. Peter (through disobedience), however, the Church does not withdraw from Christ!..Like it or Lump it…the Church is still the Church! The SSPX is is schism…that is the truth!

If you have a pious connection with the Latin Mass that is wonderful…but do not alienate yourself from the Church by adhearance to SSPX…attend and indult Latin Mass, and stay in communion with Rome!

Here is another quote…it is quite good…and should be adheard to:
“And if you ever are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the house of the Lord is—for the others, sects of the impious, attempt to call their dens ‘houses of the Lord’—nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God” (ibid., 18:26).~ Cyril of Jerusalem.
One more from St. Augustine:
“We believe in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church; for heretics and schismatics call their own congregations churches. But heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, ((although they believe the same things we do.)) Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God, and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor” (Faith and Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).
God bless you and Mary keep you,

Cody
 
Kellam,
Didn’t the SSPX “offer” the Vatican a solution like that of what happened I believe that of the Ukraine agreement that took place hundreds of years ago? Something along the lines of “accept us for who and how we are.”
 
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EddieArent:
Kellam,
Didn’t the SSPX “offer” the Vatican a solution like that of what happened I believe that of the Ukraine agreement that took place hundreds of years ago? Something along the lines of “accept us for who and how we are.”
But that is a problem.

Who the SSPX are is unacceptable.

They deny Vatican II.

They deny the validity of the Mass.

They want a new right granted to all priests, that right is the right to say the Trad Latin Mass, and only the Trad Latin Mass, if a priest so chooses.

Also I think you misunderstand the agreement that brought the Byzantine Catholic Churches back into communion with Rome.
 
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pnewton:
I heard Cardinal Arinze say yesterday that in the 16th century the Tridentine Mass was the Novus Ordo.

It is not 2000 years old and not called the Tridentine Mass without cause.
What is the Mass without the Holy Euchurist.
What Matter and Form did our lord Christ institute for this most holy mystery of the Catholic Church…

“Take and eat of this, all of you, FOR THIS IS MY BODY”

“Take and drink of this, all of you,
THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT
THE MYSTERY OF FAITH:
WHICH IS BEING SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS .As often as you shall do these actions, do this in memory of me.”

As you can see the words of consecration have been “The Mass” as Christ pronounced them until the changes of the Novus Ordo liturgy. This form has essentially been used by the Church for centuries.

Fogny
 
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Fogny:
What is the Mass without the Holy Euchurist.
What Matter and Form did our lord Christ institute for this most holy mystery of the Catholic Church…

“Take and eat of this, all of you, FOR THIS IS MY BODY”

“Take and drink of this, all of you,
THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT
THE MYSTERY OF FAITH:
WHICH IS BEING SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS .As often as you shall do these actions, do this in memory of me.”

As you can see the words of consecration have been “The Mass” as Christ pronounced them until the changes of the Novus Ordo liturgy. This form has essentially been used by the Church for centuries.

Fogny
Please show me where our Lord used these exact words.

As I showed else where, these are not the words used in all places in Scripture where this is layed out.

You also can not make the last claim that you do, that this form has been used by the Church for centuries, as we do not know what the form was in the beginning of the Church.

As evidence, the Anaphora of Addai and Mari used by the Assyrian Church of the East is one of the oldest known anaphoras in existence today and it does not contain the words of institution. The Catholic Church recoginizes this anaphora and sees the Qurbana (the Eucharistic Liturgy) as vaild.

The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East allow intercommuion under certain circumstances.

This statement on the words of institution has been discussed and seems after we refute it, it is not brought up again in that thread but then it pops up in another thread like we have never discussed it before.
 
I have read that, and if you have ever read the sede position on this, it is quite clever-and does have historical accuracy to back it up, with heretical Popes throughout history:
  • Arian Heresy in 318 with Arius, who was a priest preaching false doctrine
  • 928-rule of filth where the Roman Janulees controlled the papacy.
  • 956 to somewhere around 964 where the Temporal ruler of Rome John XII took the Papacy for himself later to be murdered
  • 1033-count of Tusculum till around 1076 where a rich Count purchased the papacy for his 10 year old son
  • 1294-Pope Boniface VIII took over the Papacy and had the previous pope imprisoned or murdered
  • 14-16th centuries-many heresies with severe Protestant infiltration into the church
So, as you can see-through all of these horrible times-and some bad Popes-the gates of hell never prevailed nor did the church defect. The trads still believe in the Pope-some think the seat is vacant, some think he is just a “bad” Pope.

I myself am loyal to the Holy father , but question the direction I see the church going-I read where we now have laymen giving sermons. Crazy
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chb03c:
Bulldog,

i think there is a passage in the Bible that says something about how the “gates of hell will not prevail against…” the Church. But i dont know maybe you should check it out. one could say to you ye of little faith in the Church that Christ founded.

God Bless
 
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ByzCath:
Please show me where our Lord used these exact words.

As I showed else where, these are not the words used in all places in Scripture where this is layed out.

You also can not make the last claim that you do, that this form has been used by the Church for centuries, as we do not know what the form was in the beginning of the Church.

As evidence, the Anaphora of Addai and Mari used by the Assyrian Church of the East is one of the oldest known anaphoras in existence today and it does not contain the words of institution. The Catholic Church recoginizes this anaphora and sees the Qurbana (the Eucharistic Liturgy) as vaild.

The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East allow intercommuion under certain circumstances.

This statement on the words of institution has been discussed and seems after we refute it, it is not brought up again in that thread but then it pops up in another thread like we have never discussed it before.
Is not the grass green in the summer, your argument is false and misleading.

The Council of Trent :

" Christ instituted the Mass at the last supper that it’s salutary power might be applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit."
Session XXII Chapter 2

Fogny
 
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ByzCath:
Please show me where our Lord used these exact words.

As I showed else where, these are not the words used in all places in Scripture where this is layed out.

You also can not make the last claim that you do, that this form has been used by the Church for centuries, as we do not know what the form was in the beginning of the Church.

As evidence, the Anaphora of Addai and Mari used by the Assyrian Church of the East is one of the oldest known anaphoras in existence today and it does not contain the words of institution. The Catholic Church recoginizes this anaphora and sees the Qurbana (the Eucharistic Liturgy) as vaild.

The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East allow intercommuion under certain circumstances.

This statement on the words of institution has been discussed and seems after we refute it, it is not brought up again in that thread but then it pops up in another thread like we have never discussed it before.
The Anaphora of Addai and Mari is currently being debated about in Rome. THeologians in Rome at the Gregorian University have said that this acceptation of this anaphora is a destruction of the Catholic Faith.
 
Come now, you cannot say that a man who has a prot, jew, etc. wife must submit their conscience to their husband.
Come now, T! Are you saying that your wife is a prot, jew, etc.?
In matters of Faith, the husband or anyone else cannot demand submission.
What??? What exactly are we supposed to be submissive to? This is why mixed marriages are hard. However, I don’t believe you’d say that you are in a mixed marriage, would you?
 
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ByzCath:
Please show me where our Lord used these exact words.

As I showed else where, these are not the words used in all places in Scripture where this is layed out.

You also can not make the last claim that you do, that this form has been used by the Church for centuries, as we do not know what the form was in the beginning of the Church.

As evidence, the Anaphora of Addai and Mari used by the Assyrian Church of the East is one of the oldest known anaphoras in existence today and it does not contain the words of institution. The Catholic Church recoginizes this anaphora and sees the Qurbana (the Eucharistic Liturgy) as vaild.

The Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East allow intercommuion under certain circumstances.

This statement on the words of institution has been discussed and seems after we refute it, it is not brought up again in that thread but then it pops up in another thread like we have never discussed it before.
ByzCath,

I show a link here to a liturgy. Is this the Anaphora of Addai and Mari ?
mishqana.org/en/documents/liturgy/addai.php

cired.org/liturgy/apostles.html

Pope John Paul II has approved this liturgy. We might Discuss this in another thread as I deem it most important.
The approval is important because the consecration is told in the narrative and differs in that respect to the latin rite.
One point is that this form of liturgy has been a part of the Eastern Church and has not been questioned before.
A interesting devolpment in Church history.

Fogny
 
Extract from Part II - Frits Albers:
  1. A third concentrated attack from the ‘Tridentiners’ which is better settled from Tradition rather than from theology (the next Section) is their assertion that the change in the words of the Consecration of the wine renders the Consecration (i) invalid (some), or (ii) gravely doubtful (others) and so, on whatever count (iii) to be avoided at all cost (all). This is a more serious charge and calculated to cause some anxiety amongst fair-minded priests and lay-people. If the point is raised in the absence of charge, mistrust and invective, an answer can be found dealing with the discrepancy between the *Latin Missa Normativa * (i.e. the *Novus Ordo * in Latin) and the various translations. But for this it is necessary that people are genuinely interested in an answer and are not subscribing to other charges and claims made by the Latin Mass people and refuted elsewhere. In other words, we can only settle this question completely satisfactorily, if we accept Pope Paul as the legitimate Holy Father competent to introduce the Novus Ordo Missae, which we accept as coming from his will. In this climate of trust and Faith the difficulty still exists, but an answer is not impossible.
a. A first answer is that no theologian holds (since it was never taught by the Church) that only the words of the Consecration as laid down by the Bull *Quo Primum * constitute the form of the Sacrament of the Blessed Eucharist. As already stated elsewhere, there are so many different forms of the words of the Consecration, at one time or another used by the Church, that the general consensus is that the proper form of the Sacrament of the Blessed Eucharist is:

This is My Body” and “This is (the chalice of) My Blood”, spoken over the proper matter: bread and wine.

This takes the sting out of the argument that the English words of the Consecration of the wine make the Consecration invalid or even doubtful, since the remaining words are spoken after Transubstantiation has taken place.

b. A second answer must settle the question: “Is it true that a lie has been introduced in the very heart of Catholicism, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, by the change of ‘pro multis’ in the Latin Novus Ordo to the ‘for all’ in the vernacular?

i. The beginning of the answer is that, apart from the words already mentioned, “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood”, we do not know the exact words Christ used after that. “For many” is used in Mt. 24:28 and Mk 14:24, but not in Luke or St. Paul. St. Luke says “pro vobis” “for you” (plural). How restrictive is that? If the Apostles were the representatives of the whole human race, the meaning of ‘*for all’ * as ‘*for you all’ * is then quite legitimate. For Christ did shed His Blood ‘for all men’.

ii. St. Paul is emphatic that Christ died for the whole human race. See e.g. Rom. 8:32, 2 Cor. 5:14, Rom. 5:12 sqq., 1 Tim. 2:6, 9:10, to mention only a few passages. See also Jn. 1:29, 3:16, 17, 6:33, 51, 1 Jn 2:2, 4:14, etc. All these texts make it perfectly clear that there is no heresy on the lips of a priest when he says during the Consecration: “*This is the cup of My Blood … which is shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven”. * The change in words reflects the classical distinction between the *subjective * and *objective * Redemption won by Christ, i.e. between *salvation * (many) and *redemption * (offered to all).

iii. Finally, may I refer the reader (and I do hope that they will bring the following to the notice of any ‘Tridentiner’ in their circle of friends) to quite a few *Prayers over the Gifts * immediately before the Preface and the beginning of the Eucharistic Prayer in the old Tridentine Mass prescribed by Pope St. Pius V, ‘Several Prayers for the Dead’:

“Grant us we beseech Thee O Lord, that this offering may benefit the soul of Your servant Bishop N, since through the offering of these gifts You grant that the sins of the whole world are loosened.”

(“Annue nobis, quaesumus Domine, ut animae famuli tui N. Episcopi haec prosit oblatio, quam immolando totius mundi tribuisti relaxari derelicta.)
 
This is much stronger than the words of the English Consecration and should, to be consistent, be open to doubt to anyone who doubts the words of the (English) Consecration without due regard for papal authority and Church Tradition.

Christ not only shed His Blood *“for all” * (St. Paul, St. John): according to this Prayer over the Gifts, the renewal of His Sacrifice in every Mass is for the undoing (relaxari) of the sins of the whole world. In the old Tridentine Rite these words constituted the heart of Christ’s Sacrifice, both on Calvary and in every Mass as the re-enactment of this Sacrifice, and they were pronounced very close to the centre of every Mass: the Consecration. They never meant, or stated, that *all men * would be saved. Neither, therefore, should this exclusive meaning be attached to these words when they are in use in the New Rite. The old Tridentine Rite was not frightened to stress the universality of Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross and in the Mass. Neither, therefore, should we.

c. More can be said about this very question, but this is as far as it can be taken from Tradition. In the next two sections, theology and Faith, we will come back to it for further development. Suffice to say here that there are words of the Consecration which do not include ‘pro multis’, ‘for many’, showing that these words are **not ** part of the *form * of the Sacrament.
 
Defensor Fidei quoted:
Quote:
The Masses [the SSPX] celebrate are also valid, but it is considered morally illicit for the faithful to participate in these Masses unless they are physically or morally impeded from participating in a Mass celebrated by a Catholic priest in good standing (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 844.2). The fact of not being able to assist at the celebration of the **so-called “Tridentine” Mass ** is not considered a sufficient motive for attending such Masses. (ECCLESIA DEI)
It is important to note the correct terminology for the post Trent liturgy of the Mass as being the “so-called ‘Tridentine’ Mass”!

NO Roman Missal has been printed describing the Mass as being “The Tridentine Mass.”

Every Missal printed from Pope Pius V to John-Paul II is simply known as “The Roman Missal.” Each “Roman Missal” authorised by the respective popes for the saying of Mass IS the “normative” Missal.

Upon any alteration to a printed Roman Missal - the new Missal authorized by the pope of the day becomes the “normative” Missal for the saying of Mass.

The Roman Missal authorized by Pope Paul VI is now the “normative” Mass of the Roman Rite. The so-called “Tridentine” Mass is no longer the “normative” Mass of the Roman Rite. It is permitted as a result of the Indult granted by Pope John-Paul II.

It is licitly and validly celebrated by those who are in communion with Pope John-Paul II through their lawful bishops. The SSPX are NOT in full communion with the the Pope and the Catholic Church.

Archbishop Lefebvre and his SSPX priests were suspended a divinis in the late 1970’s from performing the sacraments, including the saying of Mass. They couldn;t care less about the suspensions - nor being in a state of schism and excommunication.

The SSPX Mass is valid but illicit. So too are the Masses of various vagrant validly ordained priests who operate in “Independent” Chapels. They may ONLY be attended in cases of genuine necessity - and that does NOT occur when a parish so-called “Novus Ordo” is readily available.

Facts are facts!
 
katolic wrote:
So are the hierarchs and priests of OCA,GOCA,ROCA,UOCA, and AOA, but who cares they ain’t but they is schismatic
Just as there are levels of reward in Heaven and degrees of punishment for unrepented sin in Hell - so too are there levels of responsibility for being in a state of schism.

Originators of schism and/or heresy bear the greater burden of guilt for their sins than do their successors and progeny.

Present day SSPX, “Independents” and sede-vacantists bear that greater guilt for initiating and feeding present-day schism than do the present-day successors to the 11th, 16th, etc. schismatics.

The old adage applies: look not at the mote in your neighbour’s eye when you have a log in your own. (or thereabouts).
 
Sean O L:
katolic wrote:

Just as there are levels of reward in Heaven and degrees of punishment for unrepented sin in Hell - so too are there levels of responsibility for being in a state of schism.

Originators of schism and/or heresy bear the greater burden of guilt for their sins than do their successors and progeny.

Present day SSPX, “Independents” and sede-vacantists bear that greater guilt for initiating and feeding present-day schism than do the present-day successors to the 11th, 16th, etc. schismatics.

The old adage applies: look not at the mote in your neighbour’s eye when you have a log in your own. (or thereabouts).
The SSPX is not in schism. That old adage does apply to most independent priests and sedevacantists. It’s amazing how fast some of the independents reproduce bishops.

Sean O’ L, go to www.orthodoxchristianity.net forums and ask in a poll how many people are exCatholics. The forum is controlled by exCatholics. Look at how many souls are lost to the schismatic churches becuase Vatican II told eastern Catholics to return to their eastern “roots”. A good tree grows fruit, but a bad tree is burnt.

Since many know who you are for your antiTraditional tirades, I have a question. Since you now curse the SSPX everywhere, do you still attend the Traditional Latin Mass? How often
 
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