Stay Catholic or change religions?

[CARV]

No, CARV. You transmitted lies and misinformation. I am williing to accept that you may not know any better, but what you “pointed out” is NOT Catholic teaching!

I agree with you that the OP should not pretend to be Catholic if she cannot accept the catholic teachings. But she needs to study them first, understand what they really are. You are encouraging her to leave before this has been done, and that is a mistake.

You are leading people out of Catholicism, or trying to, and you are making assumptions (some of them false) about what the Church. I don’t think you are facing impending damnation for your opinion, but it is wrong for you to spread lies about Catholicism.

As I former catholic, I am accustomed to the rules. And according to Catholic teaching, denying that confession is necessary for the forgiveness of sins is heresy. Using contraception is a mortal and damnable sins. If one doesn’t repent of these things, then you are damned. That’s what the Catholic Church teaches. Take it or leave it.

And I’m not leading anyone out of Catholicism. She is really only nominally catholic. She had already left for 10 years. Why lay that on me? Her question was should I attend a Catholic Church even though I don’t, and don’t show much desire, to accept all of Rome’s doctrine and my honest answer was no. Had she said “I believe in Rome’s teaching…should I go to a Catholic Church?” i would have said yes.

 

[jmcrae]

To proselytize someone means to try to convince them to adopt your beliefs. I have done nothing of the sort.

Of course you have - you keep pointing out that with her current set of beliefs, she would be welcome in the Episcopalian Church.

That may or may not be true, since we don’t know the OP’s stand on other issues that may be of more importance to Episcopalians than merely disagreeing with the Catholic Church on things like birth control - she might find that she has a belief in Karma imbibed from grocery store magazines that is incompatible with the teachings of the Episcopalian Church (I trust, anyway, that the Episcopalians don’t believe in Karma … )

I don’t care whether or not the OP chooses to be catholic or episcopalian or anything else. But her views are already clearly protestant, and I didn’t say a word to convince her of the beliefs she already held before she got here. I merely suggested that she go to a church that conforms to what she believes.

No one should go to Church to find out what they themselves believe - they should go to Church to find out what God believes, and then strive to conform themselves to God’s beliefs.

 

[CMatt25]

My best wishes to you. But it seems that you bear many convictions akin to protestant Christianity that are shunned by your own. Remember that you are always welcome.

Thanks. I don’t live in a cocoon and have come in contact with both Catholic priests and Protestant clergy including some in TEC of which you are part of. One in fact a former Roman priest who gave me some of the greatest advice I’ve ever received. Simply that if we open our hearts to God’s spirit, He will let us know where He wants us to be. I know I would be welcomed, warts and all, in any of the Protestant churches whose clergy I have known (Better put that in there so they don’t accuse you of proselytizing me to TEC which you’re not) if the Holy Spirit ever guides me to one. God bless and peace!

 

[CARV]

Of course you have - you keep pointing out that with her current set of beliefs, she would be welcome in the Episcopalian Church.

That may or may not be true, since we don’t know the OP’s stand on other issues that may be of more importance to Episcopalians than merely disagreeing with the Catholic Church on things like birth control - she might find that she has a belief in Karma imbibed from grocery store magazines that is incompatible with the teachings of the Episcopalian Church (I trust, anyway, that the Episcopalians don’t believe in Karma … )

No one should go to Church to find out what they themselves believe - they should go to Church to find out what God believes, and then strive to conform themselves to God’s beliefs.

I have not once suggested the episcopal church to the OP. I just said that the Catholic Church isn’t a good fit for her. We all have to make a decision, which, if any, church we attend. It appears that she has decided (well before I said a word to her) that she doesn’t believe Roman Catholic dogma. Why on Earth would someone advise her to attend a Catholic Church if that is the case?

Obviously, a Roman Catholic who sees one of their former sisters as a lost sheep searching for the way home might take that position. But I saw a woman who had made up her mind about a few things and gave her what I believe was sound advise. I didn’t see an opportunity to steal a sheep from your flock. I never once even invited her to the EC. Episcopalians aren’t exactly known for proselyting. Catholics are much more prone to that behavior.

 

[CARV]

Thanks. I don’t live in a cocoon and have come in contact with both Catholic priests and Protestant clergy including some in TEC of which you are part of. One in fact a former Roman priest who gave me some of the greatest advice I’ve ever received. Simply that if we open our hearts to God’s spirit, He will let us know where He wants us to be. I know I would be welcomed, warts and all, if the Holy Spirit ever guides me there. God bless and peace!

As long as you are happy, that is all that matters. Like I said before, most Catholics don’t believe all of what Rome teaches but they still feel at home there. I guess it wasn’t for me because I wasn’t a cradle catholic so leaving wasn’t all that hard. I had no cultural or family ties so when I changed my beliefs I simply changed my church again…just like before RCIA. Anyways, good luck and God bless.

 

[guanophore]

Guan, Our Heavenly Father gave us the Lord’s Prayer and in it words asking for forgiveness of our trespasses.

Yes, we are in agreement on this point.

James gave us confessing to one another not only to priests. And it’s also fine to confess in front of a priest. I am not arguing against the Sacrament of Penance as a means of forgiveness.

You use an interesting choice of words here “in front of a priest”. It is consistent with your apparent lack of awareness of the priest acting in the person of Christ.

I answered your question as to any benefits. You just don’t like the answer. But we shall know when He comes again.

you did? I think you are wrong. I think that I missed your answer, so I can’t tell if I don’t like it, or not! Maybe you are right, and I did not like it, because I don’t remember it. Can you refresh my remembery? what benefit is there to being an apostasized Catholic? Excommunicated?

Your last sentence is one of those anti-Catholic comments you enjoy repeating. It indicates that you reject the promise of Jesus to lead the Church into all Truth. You reject that the HS has held the Truth infallibly in the Church. These are fundamental Catholic Teachings.

 And you say I do not realize who is Catholic.

No, I don’t think I said that. I said you are lacking Catholicity. You claim to be Catholic, yet you reject Catholic teaching.

Yet it is you who appears to continue having difficulty accepting the Church’s definition of who is Catholic. Not I. So yes of course one is either a Catholic by the Church’s teaching or is not.

I can accept that you were baptized Catholic. Your baptism, however, is the starting point in a walk of faith. Since you now have grown up, and as an adult you have rejected the faith into which you were baptized, your baptism will not give you any eternal benefit. Baptized Catholics go through the gates of hell every day.

But when bishops are not even on the same page in regards to Mass Holy Day obligations required to avoid mortal sin and fellow Catholics worldwide are not all under the same edicts and obligations on something as serious as mortal sin, then I believe they are manmade.

They don’t have to be on the same “page”, CMatt. The bishop presides over his jurisdiction, and is the shepherd of those within it. Different cultures and societies have different pastoral needs. Our duty is to be obedient to our shepherds, since they give an account for our souls to God. How does it damage your soul for your bishop to require your attendance at Mass on a Holy Day? I could see your objection if he was asking you to do something that was a sin, but it is a spiritual discipline intended to help you grow in the faith! your rejection of it demonstrates a heart of rebellion. That is why people express concerns about your spiritual status. A heart of rebellion is at the center of mortal sin.

 

[guanophore]

And I submit to Christ’s authority first and foremost. You can believe Christ is telling one bishop one thing and another something else and that Christ determines the obligation of Mass attendance based on location. I do not.

If you submit to Christ, then you will submit to the authority he has placed over you. To refuse that authority is to refuse Christ. “He who hears you, hears me, and He who rejects you, rejects me”. It seems to me that, it might be more advantageous for you to exercise your rebellion over something that is of real spiritual consequence. Refusing to participate in something intended for your holiness is a strange way to express it.

And in another example, the Ascension either occurred on a Thurs 40 days after His Resurrection from the tomb or it occurred on a Sunday as observed in Canada.

Yes, and during the 40 days between the resurrection and the ascension, Jesus gave the Apostles instructions on how to manage the Church. He gave them authority to decide which days to celebrate the feasts, to order the fasts, etc. You are rejecting this authority.

I don’t recognize Jesus in the Sacraments? Huh? Guan, was it not I who told you God is in the confessional with you?

I can only speculate as to why you do not seem to encounter Christ in the sacraments. One reason may be a rebellious heart. One may be a seared conscience. One may be a lack of proper catechesis. It is possible you don’t have any personal experience encountering Jesus sacramentally. All I can see is that you don’t seem to “get” that the priest is acting in the person of Christ. I apologize if I was offensive, it was not my intention. I am just trying to make sense out of your posts.

But Guan the main difference is not what you or I think the Apostles taught or what anyone else thinks. The difference is recognizing the difference between faith and belief vs presuming to think one knows with absolute 100% certainty everything there is to know about someone as perfect as God.

No, that was never involved. I am sure we will all agree that none of us knows with certainty everything there is to know. However, we can know for 100% certainty the Truth that He has revealed and preserved in the Church. Your posts clearly reject this Apostolic Teaching.

For me to claim I know everything there is to know about God, and thinking with all certainty that I have every dotted 'i" and crossed “t” absolutely correctly, I believe is to place myself on the same level as Him.

This is good. I think we are all in agreement on this point. But to waver all the way to the other side, and purport that we cannot know what He has clearly revealed is just as wrong.

We have not yet attained our Heavenly home, Guan. He has not yet come again for us. It is there where we shall abide in all perfection and truth.

Jesus did not leave us orphans, Matt. He has preserved the Church in His Truth, just as He said He would. No, we don’t know all there is to know, and we never will, since our humanity is dwarfed by HIm. But the Truth that was deposited Once for All to the saints has been preserved infallibly in the Church by the HS. YOu have chosen to reject this Apostolic Teaching.

Guan, you can continue questioning the Church on Her definition of who is Catholic. I am not going to continue responding every single time. But yes I know some who are more faithful and some less.

No question, and no arguement Matt. My confusion lies in not undertanding why a person would claim to be Catholic when one rejects Catholic faith. And I am confused about why one would think there is any benefit to being Catholic when one has excommunicated oneself, or is apostate.

How is being Catholic and being in hell preferable in some way?

I sometimes wonder if when many of us or with faith and hope all of us, meet abiding in His Heavenly presence someday, how we will rejoice together and may share a laugh at some of the things we “argued” about here on CAF. God bless you, Guan, on your lifelong journey of faith with Him. Peace.

I sure hope we can. I don’t find the impending loss of an eternal soul much of a laughing matter.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was that if you are raising your kids in a particular religion (be it Catholic or otherwise) it would be prudent to actually believe that religion yourself. Your kids are eventually going to pick up on the fact, by the way you live, that you don’t live according to the tenets of your own faith. It would probably cast a lot of doubt on the concept of religious faith itself. I can comfortably raise my family in the Episcopal Church because I am a professed and practicing protestant Christian.

Ok-I’m sorry if I misunderstood you. I was a little defensive because I was raised Catholic…and my parents left the faith during their divorce. I think my upbringing in the faith is the ONLY thing that kept Christ in my heart. I spent years in Protestant faiths but it was my coming home to the Catholic faith that has led me to fall deeply in love with Christ. Something I didn’t find in the other churches.

 

[jmcrae]

Guan, Our Heavenly Father gave us the Lord’s Prayer and in it words asking for forgiveness of our trespasses. James gave us confessing to one another not only to priests. And it’s also fine to confess in front of a priest.

Just a clarification, here - the priest reveals in his own body Jesus, revealing Himself to us in the form of a man. The words coming forth from the priest are the words of Jesus, speaking through him. The priest himself has become a kind of window, through which we see and hear Jesus.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, we are in agreement on this point.

You use an interesting choice of words here “in front of a priest”. It is consistent with your apparent lack of awareness of the priest acting in the person of Christ.

you did? I think you are wrong. I think that I missed your answer, so I can’t tell if I don’t like it, or not! Maybe you are right, and I did not like it, because I don’t remember it. Can you refresh my remembery? what benefit is there to being an apostasized Catholic? Excommunicated?

Your last sentence is one of those anti-Catholic comments you enjoy repeating. It indicates that you reject the promise of Jesus to lead the Church into all Truth. You reject that the HS has held the Truth infallibly in the Church. These are fundamental Catholic Teachings.

No, I don’t think I said that. I said you are lacking Catholicity. You claim to be Catholic, yet you reject Catholic teaching.

I can accept that you were baptized Catholic. Your baptism, however, is the starting point in a walk of faith. Since you now have grown up, and as an adult you have rejected the faith into which you were baptized, your baptism will not give you any eternal benefit. Baptized Catholics go through the gates of hell every day.

Sigh. Guan, is the priest you’re in front of in Christ’s physical flesh too while you’re sitting there?

Yes Guan I pointed out some benefits in a previous post to you.

Here’s what you said Guan, “He (meaning me) does not seem to realize that being Catholic is like being pregnant. You either are, or you are not.” And you said that despite me having told you over and over I realize you either are or you are not a Catholic according to how the Church defines a Catholic in her teaching.

I am more than a starting point baptized Catholic Guan. Catechized, confirmed, with an informed conscience too!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Just a clarification, here - the priest reveals in his own body Jesus, revealing Himself to us in the form of a man. The words coming forth from the priest are the words of Jesus, speaking through him. The priest himself has become a kind of window, through which we see and hear Jesus.

And it’s completely WONDERFUL…:extrahappy:

 

[jmcrae]

Sigh. Guan, is the priest you’re in front of in Christ’s physical flesh too while you’re sitting there?

It is the priest’s body, but Christ’s spirit acting through the priest -not possessing him like a demon, but using him and speaking through him, while at the same time he is also still there. This phenomenon is called “in persona Christi” - the priest is acting in the person of Christ. What comes forth from the priest originates with Christ.

By the way, it is physically impossible for an informed conscience to disagree with Church teaching. If you disagree with anything, you still require more information, so as to become more fully informed.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

As I former catholic, I am accustomed to the rules. And according to Catholic teaching, denying that confession is necessary for the forgiveness of sins is heresy. Using contraception is a mortal and damnable sins. If one doesn’t repent of these things, then you are damned. That’s what the Catholic Church teaches. Take it or leave it.

And I’m not leading anyone out of Catholicism. She is really only nominally catholic. She had already left for 10 years. Why lay that on me? Her question was should I attend a Catholic Church even though I don’t, and don’t show much desire, to accept all of Rome’s doctrine and my honest answer was no. Had she said “I believe in Rome’s teaching…should I go to a Catholic Church?” i would have said yes.

That’s where we disagree. Instead of listening to someone who says they know all the teachings of the Catholic Church, I thought it would be more beneficial for her to go find out for herself, see where God is leading her, and make her own decision. That way she doesn’t regret later on…IMHO.

 

[TedDC]

They don’t have to be on the same “page”, CMatt. The bishop presides over his jurisdiction, and is the shepherd of those within it. Different cultures and societies have different pastoral needs. Our duty is to be obedient to our shepherds, since they give an account for our souls to God. How does it damage your soul for your bishop to require your attendance at Mass on a Holy Day? I could see your objection if he was asking you to do something that was a sin, but it is a spiritual discipline intended to help you grow in the faith! your rejection of it demonstrates a heart of rebellion. That is why people express concerns about your spiritual status. A heart of rebellion is at the center of mortal sin.

So it’s a spiritual discipline intended to help me grow in my faith - to be obeyed under penalty of burning in hell forever? What rubbish! That’s like a parent telling a child “You must go to school because it’s important for your future, and if you don’t go I will kill you.”

It makes no sense because the punishment for disobedience (eternal damnation) is worse than the consequence the bishop is ostensibly trying to avoid (a possible reduction in faith or grace) by threatening the punishment.

I’ve learned through long experience to be very wary of people who claim authority over me. They rarely have my best interests at heart. Sorry, I just can’t put that much faith in a mere man.

 

[CMatt25]

There are plenty of Protestant forums where your views would be the majority view. Surely they would be more comfortable for you.

So now what? The non-Catholic section of CAF is supposed to now only be for a small community too of those who consider themselves the devoutest, purist Catholics?

 

[TedDC]

It is the priest’s body, but Christ’s spirit acting through the priest -not possessing him like a demon, but using him and speaking through him, while at the same time he is also still there. This phenomenon is called “in persona Christi” - the priest is acting in the person of Christ. What comes forth from the priest originates with Christ.

By the way, it is physically impossible for an informed conscience to disagree with Church teaching. If you disagree with anything, you still require more information, so as to become more fully informed.

Prove that.

 

[CMatt25]

So it’s a spiritual discipline intended to help me grow in my faith - to be obeyed under penalty of burning in hell forever? What rubbish! That’s like a parent telling a child “You must go to school because it’s important for your future, and if you don’t go I will kill you.”

It makes no sense because the punishment for disobedience (eternal damnation) is worse than the consequence the bishop is ostensibly trying to avoid (a possible reduction in faith or grace) by threatening the punishment.

I’ve learned through long experience to be very wary of people who claim authority over me. They rarely have my best interests at heart. Sorry, I just can’t put that much faith in a mere man.

:clapping:

 

[DebCat129]

Honestly, who is judging who. I merely pointed out the Catholic Church’s teaching to the OP and suggested that she find another church if she doesn’t accept them, which she indicated that she doesn’t. You have accused me of leading people astray, making assumptions about people, and even warned me of my impending damnation for giving her my sincere opinion.

Look I am basing my observations on your own words, and they are clear…I can do the same and scoff at all those who attend church on Sunday, but live secular lives the rest of the week, and who believe contrary to Church teachings…But then I would get caught up in that… and I have a lot to work on within myself. I am a sinner I don’t deny that, but I’m not going to give credence to what my fellow parishioner is or is not doing…because I can have it all wrong, they may be struggling. So again I say…work on your own wholeness and be prayerful.

And I said instead of telling him or her to find a new church, (which IS pushing him or her off the cliff), You should not advise them to leave but to seek out a priest’s guidance…you may not realize it, but you will be called to account for anyone you cause to leave…you can twist what I say, but you cant fool the almighty…

 

[DebCat129]

i think you misunderstood me. What i meant was that if you are raising your kids in a particular religion (be it catholic or otherwise) it would be prudent to actually believe that religion yourself. Your kids are eventually going to pick up on the fact, by the way you live, that you don’t live according to the tenets of your own faith. It would probably cast a lot of doubt on the concept of religious faith itself. I can comfortably raise my family in the episcopal church because i am a professed and practicing protestant christian.

interesting carv how everyone seems to be misinterperting what you are trying to say… A lot of misunderstandings…maybe you should mean what you say and stop backpeddeling!

 

[CMatt25]

Prove that.

Ted, it can’t be proven. I’m sure they’ll try though. But it’s just what they believe apparently. It could get interesting seeing them try though.