Stay Catholic or change religions?

[TedDC]

I think you misinterpreted what Tantum said. The greatest minds in the world were Catholic-
St. Thomas Aquinas, Augustin. Pope Benedict XVI is probably has more brains in his little finger than 99% of anyone alive today. Would you call them docile and submissive?

I’m not sure that they were “the greatest minds”. Certainly great minds, though. I don’t know if they were “docile and submissive” or not. I just know I’m not; I can’t afford to be. Remember, when some organization tells you they now what’s best for you - watch out!

Submission also carries the meaning of opening oneself to the Lord. The Church does not tell us to be doormats.

I am open to the Lord, and I am not a doormat - including to those mere men who claim to wield the Lord’s authority.

The Church has always had sort of an ambivalent relationship with the intellect. As best I can tell, the guiding concept is “It’s OK to think, as long as your thinking leads you to the answer we want you to get.”

On this forum we see a tremendous number of “appeal to authority” arguments, citing everyone from Aquinas and Augustine, G.K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis, right on down to Father Corapi, Christopher West (though I gather he’s in the doghouse right now), and that unctious SSPX guy on YouTube.

 

[TedDC]

Not from what I see on this forum, they way words like “heretic” and “apostate” get thrown around.

 

[CMatt25]

What ‘is said?’

Is it Truth, Matt?

Tantum, in answer to another question you had, I believe if Christ is present then He is present. That’s good enough for me. I don’t need everything spelled out for me with every “i” dotted and “t” crossed for me.

What is said was in reply to another poster asking whether or not I know we are not to receive Communion in other churches. Of course I know that is what is said to us.

Is it truth that we shouldn’t commune with fellow Christians? I don’t believe it is, no.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’m not sure that they were “the greatest minds”. Certainly great minds, though. I don’t know if they were “docile and submissive” or not. I just know I’m not; I can’t afford to be. Remember, when some organization tells you they now what’s best for you - watch out!

Read the lives of the saints, St. Jerome, St. Catherine of Siena. See how docile they were!

I am open to the Lord, and I am not a doormat - including to those mere men who claim to wield the Lord’s authority.

You are the one who said Catholics were supposed to be docile and submissive.

The Church has always had sort of an ambivalent relationship with the intellect. As best I can tell, the guiding concept is “It’s OK to think, as long as your thinking leads you to the answer we want you to get.”

Do you think Jesus would demand the same? He allows us our free will, but there are consequences if our will takes us away from him.

On this forum we see a tremendous number of “appeal to authority” arguments, citing everyone from Aquinas and Augustine, G.K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis, right on down to Father Corapi, Christopher West (though I gather he’s in the doghouse right now), and that unctious SSPX guy on YouTube.

Whenever I make a statement of fact, I always appeal to authority. I was taught to do this in high school. Always support your assertions.

Some authorities hold more weight than others, IMHO.

 

[Lapey]

:
Physically? Good question. I understand all beliefs on this and perhaps it’s a nice topic to discuss over coffee I guess. That depends on if we take literally “Do this in remembrance of Me” or “This is my body” literally. Or if “eat” means “believe” in Jn 6 or if it means to literally eat. Or if we believe Christ is sitting @ the rt hand of God at the moment and will come again. Or if He can be physically on earth and heaven all at the same time. Which I assume He could be if chooses since afterall He is God.

Your brother in Christ,
CMatt25

There are two Greek words used in the Eucharistic discourse of John 6, in verse 58, Jesus said, “your fathers did eat (phago) manna, and he that eats (trogo) of this bread shall live forever.” When the Jews ate (phago) manna, it was to satisfy a carnal appetite, but the verb trogo means “to feed upon.” In these verses, phago is always in the tense that indicates a one-time action, usually in the past. Trogo is always in the present tense, indicating a continual ongoing action. Therefore, when Jesus said “he who eats (trogo) this bread will live forever,” it means a continual feeding, something that is to be done on a constant basis to satisfy the spiritual appetite.

Trogo = to gnaw or to chew, I don’t believe the author was unsure what Jesus meant.

Question again, do you believe that the Eucharist is the source and summit of the Catholic faith and really truly the risen and glorified Jesus Christ, body blood soul and divinity?

If you do, then why are all these other issues such stumbling blocks for you being in complete communion with Him?

 

[jmcrae]

I am open to the Lord, and I am not a doormat - including to those mere men who claim to wield the Lord’s authority.

Would you agree that Jesus passed His authority to the Apostles, at least? There are those who claim authority for themselves who don’t have it at all. There are some who have a bit of authority, but think that because they have a bit of authority that they are in charge of the whole thing. Then, there’s the Pope. He received his authority by means of the channels set up by Christ Himself - the same authority that Christ gave to St. Peter in John 21:15-19.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Just listen to yourself. What if I repeatedly asserted that many Catholics aren’t protestants because they don’t fully understand. In other words many catholics are just too stupid and self decieved to see the truth. If that is what you really believe then lets just stop talking right now. What’s the point?

Now you are the one that has misunderstood me. What I was saying was that there are many Protestants that are happy being Protestants, but have misconceptions about the Catholic faith. A VERY true statement. Some of them don’t care and don’t need to. But some of them can be very anti-Catholic off of misunderstandings about what Catholics believe. I didn’t say anything about them being stupid. I WAS relating that once I understood some misconceptions…I found more fullness back in the Catholic church. Not going to be so for everyone. Don’t put words in my mouth that aren’t there.

 

[CMatt25]

You gave me a lengthy hedging answer of what people say.

Do you believe God the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of our Lord? Yes or no?

I’m tired of answering the same question to you, Christine. Maybe ask me when we complete my faith journeys.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Tantum, in answer to another question you had, I believe if Christ is present then He is present. That’s good enough for me. I don’t need everything spelled out for me with every “i” dotted and “t” crossed for me.

I understand that. I just want to know if you believe that the Eucharist is physically the body and blood of Christ. I don’t need you to explain it.

IS THE EUCHARIST TRUE FLESH AND BLOOD, in your opinion.

 

[jmcrae]

The Church has always had sort of an ambivalent relationship with the intellect. As best I can tell, the guiding concept is “It’s OK to think, as long as your thinking leads you to the answer we want you to get.”

The teachings of the Church are the elements with which we think about these subjects, just as in our secular lives, the elements that we learned in elementary school - the alphabet, the multiplication tables, the names of the capital cities - are the elements with which we think critically about the world.

If you’re still sitting there in kindergarten arguing about the order of the letters of the alphabet, you aren’t going to get very far with a dictionary, and you won’t get to the Shakespearean sonnets at all.

Yes, the alphabet is totally arbitrary. But we all use the same one so that we can communicate more easily in our day-to-day dealings. And yes, some of the formulae that we use to remember the teachings of the Church are totally arbitrary - get over it, move on, and get to the good stuff.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’m tired of answering the same question to you, Christine. Maybe ask me when we complete my faith journeys.

If you don’t know what you believe on that, just say, “I don’t know” It’s okay!

 

[CMatt25]

Why would God give us brains, and then not want us to use them? To give up critical thinking in favor of “docile submission” (what a creepy phrase) to whatever some organization tells us to believe and do?

Wow am I glad you used that phrase and not me! It does sound creepy though. Peace.

 

[Lapey]

I’m tired of answering the same question to you, Christine. Maybe ask me when we complete my faith journeys.

You havn’t answered it yet, you have skirted the question. This is the source and summit, the “most August” of sacrements of the Church according to the canon law. Find this truth and you will find that everything else doesn’t matter.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes. we are still on the journey and will be for a lifetime. But if we don’t know where we are going, then we will never arrive there, no matter how long we journey.

If you don’t know what God does in Holy Communion, then you should find out, because Holy Communion is our food for the journey.

jmcrae, thanx but I know what the CC says God does in HC.

 

[TedDC]

I never used the phrase --that came from you.

Where did I say I gave up ‘critical thinking?’ Where did I say I didn’t use my brains?

Can y’all tell me something? Why it is that it appears that you only think that those who ‘rebel’ against a truth are ‘thinking for themselves’, and that those who accept a truth aren’t ‘using their brains?’ Don’t you think that we used our brains to determine that the claim the Catholic Church makes on Truth was, in fact, True???

Suppose that the Encyclopedia Brittanica tells me that a triangle has three sides.

I think (using my brains). By golly, that is correct. A triangle does have three sides.

So, I agree.

By the ‘logic’ of some, I’m not using my brains. I’m ‘docilely submitting’ to "the encyclopedia Brittanica’ and letting it ‘think for me’.

If I said, “heck no, it has 4 sides”, would I be hailed as ‘thinking for myself?’

It is ridiculous to not accept truth. it is as silly for me to insist that just because some ‘encyclopedia’ told me a triangle had 3 sides I would not accept this because I wanted it to have 4. . .because that would mean I rejected truth.

I agree it’s ridiculous to reject what you have determined to be the truth. But others of us have looked at the same claims you have, and have concluded that some of them are not the truth. It would be equally ridiculous for us to accept those claims as truth.

 

[Lapey]

Wow am I glad you used that phrase and not me! It does sound creepy though. Peace.

“docile submission” to Jesus Christ and His teachings is creepy? I guess I am creepy.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Your parish has free coffee and DOUGHNUTS! Wow one I used to attend doesn’t. Another has bagels. But doughnuts? You’re especially blessed!

Brace yourself…my parish has them too!

 

[qui_est_ce]

You havn’t answered it yet, you have skirted the question. This is the source and summit, the “most August” of sacrements of the Church according to the canon law. Find this truth and you will find that everything else doesn’t matter.

You and I believe that. I just want to know if CMatt believes in the Real Presence. That’s all I want to know.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tantum, in answer to another question you had, I believe if Christ is present then He is present. That’s good enough for me. I don’t need everything spelled out for me with every “i” dotted and “t” crossed for me.

What is said was in reply to another poster asking whether or not I know we are not to receive Communion in other churches. Of course I know that is what is said to us.

Is it truth that we shouldn’t commune with fellow Christians? I don’t believe it is, no.

Matt, back in my “embracing” days I took communion at Protestant churches too. In fact, I came “that” close to registering at a Protestant Church as a member (while, of course, going to Sunday Mass too) because I was sure it would be perfectly fine and we were all ‘one’ anyway.

Now, I regret that I took that communion. . .not because I think ‘less’ of the people in that church (who are all still my friends!) but because in doing so I actually, in thinking I was being all ‘unity-minded’, was tearing Christianity down by acting and speaking as though it was something it is not. Christianity is not “truth A for this group” and a totally opposite ‘truth B for this other group’. It isn’t a question of “I understand the teaching to be X and you understand it as not-X but it doesn’t really matter provided we all are looking for God in ‘our own way’”. And by taking that communion, as a known Catholic, I was saying falsely, “this is acceptable to me, this is as valid to me as Catholic communion, this is the SAME.” And it isn’t. And in claiming it is we are keeping people from the truth, Matt. Instead of leading them to truth, we’re driving them away!!!

 

[CMatt25]

Not from what I see on this forum, they way words like “heretic” and “apostate” get thrown around.

:sad_yes: