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rcwitness
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I was very specific about it, and I don’t want to talk about it.
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BlueMaxx
Guest
Slavery was not static as time went on. Not all slaves were the same as other slaves.
I cannot give you an entire history lesson, but just know that even in the times of Pharos some slaves were treated very well, lived very well.
As time progressed, especially into the NT times slaves could be doctors, musicians, teachers, artists, ect.
The Romans realized healthy happy slaves were infinitely more productive and so they educated slaves for their own uses.
Slaves started to obtain legal rights, they could even buy their freedom, they could be tried the same as a free man. Their own will was recognized. They could dress and act as a freeman.
Some slaves were much better off than freeman, in fact they were better housed fed and cared for than others who were left to hard scrabble.
Some masters included them in their wills granting them freedom and estates upon their death and some became part of their masters family.
Some slaves even took to puncturing their ear on their masters post to show their lifetime allegiance to them, voluntarily… …an image carried forward to the testaments to illustrate out bonding twith Christ.
Of course there were evil masters, and scripture bears this out. But to categorize all slavery as “bad” is a misnomer. It is hard for us to view this from our perspective in then historical timeline.
As far as the patriarchal aspect of families starting from the OT onwards, I suggest starting over at Genesis and going forward and also look into some good history books on cultures and customs of the regarding time…
I cannot give you an entire history lesson, but just know that even in the times of Pharos some slaves were treated very well, lived very well.
As time progressed, especially into the NT times slaves could be doctors, musicians, teachers, artists, ect.
The Romans realized healthy happy slaves were infinitely more productive and so they educated slaves for their own uses.
Slaves started to obtain legal rights, they could even buy their freedom, they could be tried the same as a free man. Their own will was recognized. They could dress and act as a freeman.
Some slaves were much better off than freeman, in fact they were better housed fed and cared for than others who were left to hard scrabble.
Some masters included them in their wills granting them freedom and estates upon their death and some became part of their masters family.
Some slaves even took to puncturing their ear on their masters post to show their lifetime allegiance to them, voluntarily… …an image carried forward to the testaments to illustrate out bonding twith Christ.
Of course there were evil masters, and scripture bears this out. But to categorize all slavery as “bad” is a misnomer. It is hard for us to view this from our perspective in then historical timeline.
As far as the patriarchal aspect of families starting from the OT onwards, I suggest starting over at Genesis and going forward and also look into some good history books on cultures and customs of the regarding time…
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rcwitness
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And so how does this relate to the feminist claim that since Scripture instructs slaves to submit to their masters, the instruction of wive’s to submit to the husband as the head of the marriage and family is not applicable to us today?
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JulianN
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Man, I’m going to have to turn that theology degree in. Bummer.
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rcwitness
Guest
Might as well. It hasn’t helped recognize fundamental knowledge about Scripture.
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BlueMaxx
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What is bothering you, the fact that the scriptures expresses this or the fact that it offends you that it would?
I think it may revolve around submission…as it is perceived as weakness and inequality…
But what do I know, I still read cartoons…
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rcwitness
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Nothing about Scripture offends me.
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JulianN
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OK. Tell me where in the Gospels this is found.
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BlueMaxx
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That is too bad…my sinful nature is often offended at the ideas set forth…it is the ol’ kicking at the goads and chaffing that gets me every time…I read things, that if I am being 100% honest, deeply offend my delicate 21st century man senses…and only show the depths of my own lack of understanding.
Painful as it is, I have found no better fertilizer for my spiritual growth…
Painful as it is, I have found no better fertilizer for my spiritual growth…
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Lea101
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That’s not a good argument to make given that Jesus never intended to teach every single thing possible within his short ministry. Hence the reason why he got the apostles and the Church. Scripture literally states that Jesus did so many things that they didn’t record.
TBH there’s more convincing ways to argue for egalitarianism
TBH there’s more convincing ways to argue for egalitarianism
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Edmundus1581
Guest
The argument “Jesus never said it” is used to oppose other orthodox teachings, and the best answer is, I think, as a couple of posters here have already pointed out, that all of scripture is equally inerrant, and also your own points here.
And thankyou for your lengthy response to me somewhere back (if you remember it). It came in last night before I went to bed. While I don’t entirely agree you did make some good points.
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JulianN
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That’s really not my point—I’m literally trying to point out that when someone says Jesus says something, it should be found in the Gospels.
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rcwitness
Guest
I am not offended, but convicted by Scripture.
Luke 7
“blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”
Luke 7
“blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”
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Lea101
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Ah I see. Sorry about that.
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rcwitness
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You shouldn’t be sorry. Your point was valid. I never said Jesus said something He didn’t. It’s just a deflect of argument. It happens all the time with these supposedly educated Catholics.
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BlueMaxx
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Why are you being so insulting?
I think you have been treated with respect, but you seem to want to slander Catholics in several of your posts…
I think you have been treated with respect, but you seem to want to slander Catholics in several of your posts…
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rcwitness
Guest
No, just realistic. Catholics have issues, ya know?
Have you noticed what happened regarding what Jesus “said” ?
It gets old… these silly arguments, which run around the issues.
When Catholics play games with what Jesus did or didn’t say in the Gospels, even when something was said in the New Testament Scriptures about it, YET at other times the game turns into, “oh, but we arent Sola Scripturists”, it gets saddening.
But go ahead, join the band wagon.
Have you noticed what happened regarding what Jesus “said” ?
It gets old… these silly arguments, which run around the issues.
When Catholics play games with what Jesus did or didn’t say in the Gospels, even when something was said in the New Testament Scriptures about it, YET at other times the game turns into, “oh, but we arent Sola Scripturists”, it gets saddening.
But go ahead, join the band wagon.
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BlueMaxx
Guest
No, not “realistic” insulting…
You are just robbing yourself of any point or grace you may be trying to build here…not everyone is a biblical scholar, and average folks may at times make mistakes…is it your intent to crucify them instead of loving them and making your point in a kind way?
If you are so into Sola Scripture then take a note on how Paul addressed those on his journey who he was speaking to, not at…
In case you missed the forum name, it is CATHOLIC answers forum…not bashing…
Your words earlier Real discussion is healthy.
You are not having one, you are merely taking bandwidth to express how much distaste you have for Catholics.
Fair enough…
Now if you will excuse me, I have to go shake some dust off my Birkenstocks…
You are just robbing yourself of any point or grace you may be trying to build here…not everyone is a biblical scholar, and average folks may at times make mistakes…is it your intent to crucify them instead of loving them and making your point in a kind way?
If you are so into Sola Scripture then take a note on how Paul addressed those on his journey who he was speaking to, not at…
In case you missed the forum name, it is CATHOLIC answers forum…not bashing…
Your words earlier Real discussion is healthy.
You are not having one, you are merely taking bandwidth to express how much distaste you have for Catholics.
Fair enough…
Now if you will excuse me, I have to go shake some dust off my Birkenstocks…
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rcwitness
Guest
What on Earth gave you the impression that I’m insulting anyone, or am into Sola Scriptura?
I am neither.
I am criticizing a self claimed educated Catholic in Scripture, for making a silly arguement about what Jesus did or did not say.
First of all, I didn’t quote Jesus at all! Second, I used New Testament Scripture, which is God breathed, inspired, and inerrant to support my position. Third, I have not contradicted any Catholic Teaching.
I do not see Scripture, or the Catholic Church being “feminist”. So I am not going to label myself as feminist.
I am neither.
I am criticizing a self claimed educated Catholic in Scripture, for making a silly arguement about what Jesus did or did not say.
First of all, I didn’t quote Jesus at all! Second, I used New Testament Scripture, which is God breathed, inspired, and inerrant to support my position. Third, I have not contradicted any Catholic Teaching.
I do not see Scripture, or the Catholic Church being “feminist”. So I am not going to label myself as feminist.
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Edmundus1581
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@BlueMaxx 
For me the passion in these arguments comes from the very real, in fact catastrophic and tragic, effects that feminism is having on men and families. But I say “men” first, because society actually cares little about men, expecting them to look after themselves and take any hits. I went through it myself, and it has been happening on a vast scale for decades, and it not only has to stop, but has to be reversed if we are to survive.
Men are already avoiding marriage and are wise to do so. I fear greatly for my son, regardless of the worthiness of any wife at first (unless she is someone truly remarkable!), and wish I could tell him how to simply avoid women. That is terrible, but realistic.
However, I admit that I can get a bit abrasive (especially when I’ve been here too long!), so apoligise where I have done that, and I do try to listen to the good points in opposing arguments.
For me the passion in these arguments comes from the very real, in fact catastrophic and tragic, effects that feminism is having on men and families. But I say “men” first, because society actually cares little about men, expecting them to look after themselves and take any hits. I went through it myself, and it has been happening on a vast scale for decades, and it not only has to stop, but has to be reversed if we are to survive.
Men are already avoiding marriage and are wise to do so. I fear greatly for my son, regardless of the worthiness of any wife at first (unless she is someone truly remarkable!), and wish I could tell him how to simply avoid women. That is terrible, but realistic.
However, I admit that I can get a bit abrasive (especially when I’ve been here too long!), so apoligise where I have done that, and I do try to listen to the good points in opposing arguments.
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