Staying with the ELCA

[Oldtimer_7]

One of the difficult decisions that I have had to make was what to do in response to the Social Statement on Human Sexuality and the four resolutions adopted at the 2008 National Convention. It was made more difficult because at the time I was president of church council. In my position, I could select the individuals who went to the state synod and did choose those who were also opposed to adopting the resolutions on gay clergy and same-sex blessings. Obviously, the vote did not go our way nationally and then we had to come up with a response that was somehow palatable to as many members of the congregation as possible.

I grew up in my congregation, my family joining in the mid-50’s, a couple of years after immigrating to the US. The congregation had sponsored us and we were grateful, but we were also Lutheran in Germany, and there were a lot of Germans in the congregation at the time.

Here are some of the considerations that I used in dtermining that I was going to stay and work from within.

1. We were members of this congregation well before there was an ELCA.
2. In accepting a position on council, I had made an obligation for myself to see it through to the end of my term and to serve all the people of the church, regardless of their opinion on the issue.
3. In looking at the life of Luther, he wanted to reform those practices he saw harming the Catholic Church, not start another church. Only his excommunication kept him from continuing his efforts at reform.
4. If it is important for the ELCA to pull back from its decision, the most potent position to effect this change is from within. Leaving might make me feel better, but it takes me out of the position to do anything about it.
5. Our congregation has an important worldwide mission. If this congregation fails, then so does the mission. I may disagree with other members, and have done so a number of times, but it is a family argument. I would no more turn my back on my spiritual brothers and sisters than on my blood brother and sisters.
6. The ultimate power in Lutheranism is the local congregation. Even our state synod has a very limited role in local considerations. They can arbitrate local impasses and in the case that a congregation leaves the synod, may decide on which group gets the physical plant.
7. Our connection to the national church is in large missions that no one congregation or even synod could handle, and in the seminary training of pastors. Otherwise, it has no effect on the quotidian life of my congregation.

Now have at it. I am very interested in what you see that the ELCA should do, and where it will end up.

 

[Jon_Hus]

The qualifications to be a deacon or elder are stated in 1 Timothy and Titus. The ELCA has made a decision to ignore this.

To apply this to what you wrote above, Luther in fact tried to reform the Roman Church, true. Ask yourself this question, how likely is it that there were some in the RCC during Luthers time who stayed thinking that the RCC would reform itself?

I know this is a bitter pill to swollow but when you place the behavior of the leadership of the ELCA up against the clear teachings of the Bible, a fair minded person can come to only one conclusion. BTW, I in the late 1980s also was the president of the local council ELCA and left. For me it was the only thing to do. Look at how far the ELCA as a group has fallen since I left them.

 

[SonCatcher]

I don’t envy your situation. Perhaps you can use this as opportunity to discern anew how Christ is calling you to live and worship him.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Now have at it. I am very interested in what you see that the ELCA should do, and where it will end up.

Interesting topic on a Catholic Forum.

Maybe this is the place where true unity will happen.

 

[Lutheranteach]

I am staying with the ELCA…my father is joining CORE, but he also thinks all homosexuals are total pervs and need to be (his words) taken out and shot. I think the ELCA is making moves too quickly, but I do not believe, when one reads in total detail what is being said and done and why, that the ELCA is wrong.

 

[Vicki_Leigh]

I was raised Presbyterian, in what became PCUSA. Many of the same problems facing ELCA now have been causing turmoil in PCUSA for many years. PCUSA, too, has many churches faithful to the Bible who do not subscribe to what the PCUSA General Assembly says. However, no matter how much autonomy a local church has, it’s still part of the denomination that is becoming (or has already become) apostate. I do understand your pain; I’ve been there. I made the gut-renching decision to leave PCUSA and ultimately joined LCMS. It was hard at the time, but I knew it was the right thing to do. I could not remain an individual in a denomination that had completely lost its way, no matter how much I tried to rationalize remaining. Becoming Lutheran has led me to do a lot of research on the early Church, which is what has brought me to studying and thinking about Catholicism. God is bigger than a denomination. I wish I had left PCUSA years ago. I hope you don’t make the same mistake I did of holding on to a denomination that is teaching what is contrary to scripture. Best of luck in whatever you decide.

 

[SonCatcher]

Becoming Lutheran has led me to do a lot of research on the early Church, which is what has brought me to studying and thinking about Catholicism. God is bigger than a denomination.

So come on back!!

Well, continue your studies for now. We’ll wait until you’re ready.

 

[1234]

I am staying with the ELCA…my father is joining CORE, but he also thinks all homosexuals are total pervs and need to be (his words) taken out and shot. I think the ELCA is making moves too quickly, but I do not believe, when one reads in total detail what is being said and done and why, that the ELCA is wrong.

I believe that there is increasing evidence that male homosexuality is hard-wired at birth. Males will tell you that they knew from virtually the onset of consciousness that there was something ‘different’ about them. Sexuality in humans is very difficult to study as, among other things, the sites affected in the brain are in multiple places difficult to access, such as the limbic system and the temporal lobes. In addition, no one has been too eager to study it until recently, but, I feel, that in the future, there is going to be a lot of hard scientific research into the origins and nature of sexuality. In females, homosexuality may be more malleable, as many women become so later in life. In addition, homosexuality exists in animals, as does masturbation.

To me, it is hard to condemn a behavior which is hard-wired into some individual’s genetic/biochemical makeup. If it leads to crimes, maybe. But consenting homosexual behavior amongst adults isn’t criminal, and shouldn’t be, as, among other things, such a law can’t be enforced.

Many social behaviors in the Old Testament was condemned and others approved–women had to prove they were raped, or they were stoned to death; slavery and concubinage, of course, were approved; mutilation of corpses was acceptable. Rape wasn’t even mentioned and I’m sure, condoned or ignored–especially rape of non-believers.

 

[SonCatcher]

I believe that there is increasing evidence that male homosexuality is hard-wired at birth. Males will tell you that they knew from virtually the onset of consciousness that there was something ‘different’ about them. Sexuality in humans is very difficult to study as, among other things, the sites affected in the brain are in multiple places difficult to access, such as the limbic system and the temporal lobes. In addition, no one has been too eager to study it until recently, but, I feel, that in the future, there is going to be a lot of hard scientific research into the origins and nature of sexuality. In females, homosexuality may be more malleable, as many women become so later in life. In addition, homosexuality exists in animals, as does masturbation.

To me, it is hard to condemn a behavior which is hard-wired into some individual’s genetic/biochemical makeup. If it leads to crimes, maybe. But consenting homosexual behavior amongst adults isn’t criminal, and shouldn’t be, as, among other things, such a law can’t be enforced.

Many social behaviors in the Old Testament was condemned and others approved–women had to prove they were raped, or they were stoned to death; slavery and concubinage, of course, were approved; mutilation of corpses was acceptable. Rape wasn’t even mentioned and I’m sure, condoned or ignored–especially rape of non-believers.

The discussion isn’t about the creation or enforcement of civil laws. Rather, it is about moral teaching.

A person may not have control over their emotions and desires. However, each person does have control over actions. It is the action that is determined to be moral or immoral.

 

[1234]

There’s a difference of opinion whether homosexual behavior is immoral. Not all Christians think so. The fact that it may be hard-wired in the brain to me argues that it’s not. Some hard-wired behavior, sociopathy, can be immoral, or amoral, but the actions of sociopaths are often illegal, often felonies. In matters of this kind, I follow the civil law. The point is, Christians disagree among themselves.

 

[SonCatcher]

There’s a difference of opinion whether homosexual behavior is immoral. Not all Christians think so. The fact that it may be hard-wired in the brain to me argues that it’s not. Some hard-wired behavior, sociopathy, can be immoral, or amoral, but the actions of sociopaths are often illegal, often felonies. In matters of this kind, I follow the civil law. The point is, Christians disagree among themselves.

First you say that ingrained impulses are not immoral then you immediately say they can be. You can’t have both assertions.

 

[Lutheranteach]

First you say that ingrained impulses are not immoral then you immediately say they can be. You can’t have both assertions.

I think the poster was trying to say there is a difference between the actions two adults undertake willingly, with love, and total consent with one another and the predatory behavior of others although both behaviors may have some underlying genetic cause.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

As long as the conversation stays on homosexuality, we will get nowhere. As Jon Hus rightly pointed out, it is about applying all the Scripture to our lives in Christ and in His church.

I have had the pain of having good friends leave because of this issue. I can understand their stance, but to rebuke the ELCA, they inevitably have to hurt a number of living, breathing brothers and sisters.

The ELCA cannot make me righteous, nor can it keep me from God. Basic Lutheran teaching is that we are the freest of all people. Though we have pastors, bishops, synods, etc, no one stands above us but God.

It may be that my mission may become a prophetic one. Jonah was not sent to Jerusalem, but to Ninevah. Even if I am to be a voice crying in the wilderness, if it is God’s will that I cry, so be it.

 

[Jon_Hus]

It may be that my mission may become a prophetic one. Jonah was not sent to Jerusalem, but to Ninevah. Even if I am to be a voice crying in the wilderness, if it is God’s will that I cry, so be it.

I think it would be one thing if you were the only person in the ELCA who is Biblically minded. But alas, you are not. The leadership is hearing from those who are Biblically literate but they are not listening! As a now outsider looking in, what has happened in my view is that the mother ship has been hijacked by money, politics and (for lack of a better word), sin.

To give you an idea of the scope of the task you face, the Lutheran Seminaries have been turning out defective product for 30-40 years. Those who lead come from the seminaries. If you want to change the ELCA, you have to reform the seminaries and even if you did this today, it will take years before reform takes hold locally. How you deal with that at the local level is a mystery to me. I live in a semi-rural area with an immediate population of about 15K. There are in my township of 4200 people and 5 ELCA churches. Only 1 of those 5 churches has a man in the pulpit. Of course the combined attendance is about 100 people. Still, this area is a Lutheran stronghold. None of these churches has any kind of viable youth program. In 10-15 years there will be less than 5 churches because they are too concerned with a social agenda to be bothered with the gospel.

Years ago, when I finally faced reality and started to plot my removal from the ELCA, the thing that took me over the edge was when I asked my self this question, "what would Luther say, do, or how would he react if he were witting in the pew next to me on any given Sunday? My answer to that question was that Luther would walk outside and remove his name from the sign on the front lawn.

Jonah was the only game in town for Nineveh, not so for you and those around you who thrist for the word. Not that I would advise to to ignore God, but I would caution you to think of the amount of time and effort you will expend. Are you up to the task? You know, don’t take this personal, but from my vantage point, the ELCAs slide into the pit has been in motion for decades. If you are just now realizing that there is a problem then you have a lot of study to do before you start your mission.

I say all this in brotherly love my friend,
Jon

 

[loneviking]

Oldtimer, you’re rationalizing the support of sin. You cannot reform ELCA from within as the seminaries are where these heresies are being taught. You cannot reform from within when the local bylaws are changed to conform with the national assembly. I know about these things as I’m a former SDA and I know folks who have tried what you think you want to attempt! Every attempt at reform that I’ve met within a denomination, once the tipping point is reached of accepting homsexuality as a ‘Christian’ behavior, has failed.

Further, there is no excuse to stay when you have so many other, conservative and confessional Lutheran synods. The LCMS just elected Matt Harrison as our president and you can expect us to continue to be very conservative and true to the Lutheran confessions under his leadership. Don’t continue in a place where open sin is not just tolerated, but will be taught to be acceptable behavior.

 

[SonCatcher]

I think the poster was trying to say there is a difference between the actions two adults undertake willingly, with love, and total consent with one another and the predatory behavior of others although both behaviors may have some underlying genetic cause.

By that reasoning, the situation of the German who volunteered to be cannibalized was moral. Same with adultery or fornication (to cite more similar and common sins).

 

[1234]

By that reasoning, the situation of the German who volunteered to be cannibalized was moral. Same with adultery or fornication (to cite more similar and common sins).

Is cannibalizing always immoral? Were members of the Donner party immoral to eat human carcasses to survive? Adultery is immoral as it involves an innocent partner(s). I don’t think that fornication is immoral. Many/most Christians don’t think so. I think that it is impossible to know a person well before marriage unless you have intercourse and all the intimacy and adjustments that sex involves. I don’t want my children to marry people who are strangers to them.

 

[SonCatcher]

Is cannibalizing always immoral? Were members of the Donner party immoral to eat human carcasses to survive? Adultery is immoral as it involves an innocent partner(s). I don’t think that fornication is immoral. Many/most Christians don’t think so. I think that it is impossible to know a person well before marriage unless you have intercourse and all the intimacy and adjustments that sex involves. I don’t want my children to marry people who are strangers to them.

The article was not about the corpse of a dead person but a living volunteer.

Your assertion that intimacy requires sex is incorrect. My wife and I had an intimate relationship before we married (meaning we talked and understood each other on most topics). Yet, she hadn’t even seen me without a shirt until we were back in the honeymoon suite afterward. Our relationship has not changed much since because it was always grounded in God.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Years ago, when I finally faced reality and started to plot my removal from the ELCA, the thing that took me over the edge was when I asked my self this question, "what would Luther say, do, or how would he react if he were witting in the pew next to me on any given Sunday? My answer to that question was that Luther would walk outside and remove his name from the sign on the front lawn.

I say all this in brotherly love my friend,
Jon

Great post.

More importantly, what would Jesus do? The Church doesn’t “invent” doctrines. It bases it’s teaching on the word of God. The Bible is very clear on the evils of fornication, adultery and same sex relations.

 

[JohnnyReb]

By that reasoning, the situation of the German who volunteered to be cannibalized was moral. Same with adultery or fornication (to cite more similar and common sins).

Age of concent is one thing that differenciates homosexuality from same sex pedophila. What makes it wrong for a man to have sex with a younger female, one that is not of age? Of course the difference in age.