Stephen Fry - Why does God let children suffer?

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OK Romeos,

Obvs you don’t catch a bride by telling her “You’ll have to suffer if you’re going to be with me.” You catch her by telling her YOU are the one who will suffer for HER. Which is what my hero did, and continues to do.

The most romantic thing in the world…
sigh
 
Paragraph 7. The Fall
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385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet **no one can escape **the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine,257 and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”.258 The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace.259 We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.260
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If suffering simply is, how do we convince an atheist that God still exists and is good?

I think the bottom line is not a particular doctrine, but the witness of a person (Christ) who has compassion with us. The person of Christ cannot always be explicitly expressed in a satisfactory way through doctrines which seem senseless.
We witness the person of Christ by living as he did, by having compassion with others in their suffering, buy not exempting ourselves and looking the other way.
This is the primary challenge of life. At least for me it is.
 
faithsmind said:
OK Romeos,

Obvs you don’t catch a bride by telling her “You’ll have to suffer if you’re going to be with me.” You catch her by telling her YOU are the one who will suffer for HER. Which is what my hero did, and continues to do.

The most romantic thing in the world…
sigh
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:coolinoff:
 
clem456 said:
If suffering simply is, how do we convince an atheist that God still exists and is good?
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Well, I think one good way is to ask them: what is* your* answer to suffering? What do you tell your child, Atheist, who asks you: why did that man lose his wife, when he already is homeless, jobless, and lost his baby daughter 3 months ago?

The atheist response is…?

I don’t think atheism has a better answer to the Problem of Suffering.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, I think one good way is to ask them: what is* your* answer to suffering? What do you tell your child, Atheist, who asks you: why did that man lose his wife, when he already is homeless, jobless, and lost his baby daughter 3 months ago?

The atheist response is…?

I don’t think atheism has a better answer to the Problem of Suffering.
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I think we Christians can point to what we call our “beatitude”, which is the good that endures in the human condition despite suffering, in the midst of it, even derived from it. We would call the source and end of that good God.

An atheist can see commitment, perseverance, endurance, hope, sacrifice, just like anyone else. Anyone can conceive of these things and see the results of living them. We don’t have to believe in God to see that suffering does not have the last word.

The seed breaks open and dies and so it gives life to the tree. It is not good that a seed dies per se, it is good that a seed dies and it’s death is fruitful.
 
clem456 said:
If suffering simply is, how do we convince an atheist that God still exists and is good?
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First, one needs to ask oneself whether it is truly one’s duty and ability (!) to convince the atheist that God exists and is good.

Last I heard, some Catholics were saying this is the Holy Spirit’s job.
I think the bottom line is not a particular doctrine, but the witness of a person (Christ) who has compassion with us. The person of Christ cannot always be explicitly expressed in a satisfactory way through doctrines which seem senseless.
We witness the person of Christ by living as he did, by having compassion with others in their suffering, buy not exempting ourselves and looking the other way.
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Again, whose job is it to convert others?

Is a Catholic (or another kind of Christian?) a necessary intermediary between the atheist and God?

Is a Catholic (or another kind of Christian?) a sufficient intermediary between the atheist and God?
 
clem456 said:
We don’t have to believe in God to see that suffering does not have the last word.
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On the contrary. For the atheist, suffering does indeed have the last word. There is no hope for the one who has died. No hope for the one who survives his death.

How bleak and despondent indeed is that kind of paradigm.
 
PRmerger said:
On the contrary. For the atheist, suffering does indeed have the last word. There is no hope for the one who has died. No hope for the one who survives his death.

How bleak and despondent indeed is that kind of paradigm.
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Bleak only from your perspective.

For many atheists, death is a relief.
 
Lucy107 said:
First, one needs to ask oneself whether it is truly one’s duty and ability (!) to convince the atheist that God exists and is good.

Last I heard, some Catholics were saying this is the Holy Spirit’s job.
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That was kinda the point I was trying to make.
Is a Catholic (or another kind of Christian?) a necessary intermediary between the atheist and God?
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Is a Catholic (or another kind of Christian?) a sufficient intermediary between the atheist and God?
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No none of us are necessary intermediaries…
“Witness”.
You believe in something, right? Do you believe it is good for people to feed the hungry for instance? If you believe that (pretty safe assumption), isn’t it good for you to witness that belief so that others might contribute to that good?
 
clem456 said:
That was kinda the point I was trying to make.
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Strange that someone like me, of all people, makes it.
No none of us are necessary intermediaries…
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Then why present oneself as such?
Why expect such of oneself and others?

Why hold it against the atheists if they don’t convert after one has preached to them?
“Witness”.
You believe in something, right? Do you believe it is good for people to feed the hungry for instance? If you believe that (pretty safe assumption), isn’t it good for you to witness that belief so that others might contribute to that good?
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Witnessing is something quite different though, in comparison to being a necessary intermediary.
 
Lucy107 said:
Strange that someone like me, of all people, makes it.

Then why present oneself as such?
Why expect such of oneself and others?

Why hold it against the atheists if they don’t convert after one has preached to them?

Witnessing is something quite different though, in comparison to being a necessary intermediary.
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Ummmm, is it possible that you are putting words in my mouth?
 
Peter_Plato said:
And that is all it can be, at best – at worst it is a deprivation of all that can be “good” in any sense.
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Indeed.

Death wins, for the atheist. Every time.

For the Christian, death has been conquered.

But this is getting ahead of the game.

The atheist still needs to provide an answer to the Problem of Suffering.

When the child asks her atheist father, “Daddy? Why does that man have only 1 arm? Aren’t we supposed to have 2 arms? Why did nature make a mistake?”

That atheist answer is: ???
 
Peter_Plato said:
And that is all it can be, at best – at worst it is a deprivation of all that can be “good” in any sense.
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People who call themselves “atheists” or people whom some Christians call “atheists” are actually a very versatile group, so versatile that they can be hardly considered a group.

Not to mention atheists who are atheistic in regard to God or gods as conceived of in other religions.

A particular atheism shapes itself in opposition to a particular theism (or the mainstream version of that theism).

There are, for example, atheists in India who are opposed to some Hindu theism, and those atheists are barely recognizable through the Western Christian standard of atheism.
For example, from the perspective of the Dvaita Vedanta schools (which are monotheistic), Advaita Vedanta is atheistic. But an “ordinary Western atheist” would struggle to figure what exactly is atheistic about it.

Keeping such things in mind, it’s hard to assess as how bad some particular atheist deems death and other forms of suffering to be.
 
clem456 said:
Ummmm, is it possible that you are putting words in my mouth?
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I was furthering the discussion. Because clearly, there are not just a few Christians who deem themselves necessary intermediaries between atheists and God.

If you don’t find that you deem yourself a necessary intermediary for the conversion of atheists, here’s a chance to clarify that.
 
PRmerger said:
The atheist still needs to provide an answer to the Problem of Suffering.

When the child asks her atheist father, “Daddy? Why does that man have only 1 arm? Aren’t we supposed to have 2 arms? Why did nature make a mistake?”

That atheist answer is: ???
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Some atheists answer with something along the lines of “Life’s tough.”
 
Lucy107 said:
I was furthering the discussion. Because clearly, there are not just a few Christians who deem themselves necessary intermediaries between atheists and God.

If you don’t find that you deem yourself a necessary intermediary for the conversion of atheists, here’s a chance to clarify that.
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Thanks for the second chance. I can repost. great…I love reposting for clarification…
The context, which was not set my me, was how to relate to atheists in this area. Here’s what I posted. I hope clarification happens.
clem456 said:
If suffering simply is, how do we convince an atheist that God still exists and is good?

I think the bottom line is not a particular doctrine, but the witness of a person (Christ) who has compassion with us. The person of Christ cannot always be explicitly expressed in a satisfactory way through doctrines which seem senseless.
We witness the person of Christ by living as he did, by having compassion with others in their suffering, buy not exempting ourselves and looking the other way.
This is the primary challenge of life. At least for me it is.
Click to expand...
 
PRmerger said:
Indeed.

Death wins, for the atheist. Every time.

For the Christian, death has been conquered.

But this is getting ahead of the game.

The atheist still needs to provide an answer to the Problem of Suffering.

When the child asks her atheist father, “Daddy? Why does that man have only 1 arm? Aren’t we supposed to have 2 arms? Why did nature make a mistake?”

That atheist answer is: ???
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That it is a billions to one chance that any of us exist at all. Everything is luck, and sometimes, it’s bad luck. 🤷
 
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