Sterilization followed by confession?

[Little_One0307]

I love it. I must have psychological problems because having 6 kids sounds like my worst nightmare. THIS is what is so annoying. Not ALL women want to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. SOME women want to travel and work and study and write and be scientists and even be anthropologists and live among and study native people, or whatever. Some women’s talents and attributes don’t coincide with having a huge family and some people would be destroyed by it. Typical one-size-fits-all mentality.

Still, not one person has answered my question as to what they would do if they woke up and found out there was a Catholic teaching as offensive and immoral as I find the total ban on ABC. I WONDER WHY?

I just did not answer the question cuz I did not get online until now. But I will sure answer that question.

Okay. I will share something. I used to think that the Church’s teaching on the death penalty was a little extreme. I used to be in favor of the death penalty and in fact got quite upset when it was not applied. In time I found out that the Church had some strong things to say against the death penalty. At the time, I found it offensive and to me it felt pretty darn right immoral. Howewver, as time went on and the more I read the Church teaching, the more I realized that my point of view had to change. It took much prayer to God for His grace to change my hardened heart. Several years later, I am proud to say that it is only by the Grace of God and the intercession of several good friends and saints, that I now believe as the Church believes.

I did not agree with the Church on Embyronic Stem Cell research when I first converted. There were many Church doctrines I had problems with. It was so bad that I talked with the Bishop before entering the Church that I could not enter, becuase of my hang ups with some doctrines and practices. The Bishop said it is one thing to struggle to come to acceptance of Church Teaching and question it, but it is another thing to not struggle and to live one’s life contrary to the Teaching of the Church and justifying it. It has taken many years, but again by the grace of God I believe in the Magisterium of the Church and what the Church teaches.

I see alot of talking in your posts, but never in any of your posts have I seen the words I want to pray for the grace to come to accept the Church’s teaching. Your posts have pretty much been ABC and No Contraception are making me morally sick and are offensive. It’s pretty much a lot of justification for a choice that you are making that deep down I believe that you know is wrong. If you did not know it was wrong, then I don’t think you would be fighting as hard as you are for contrary behaviors in your life that the Church teaches against. I do not see any peace in your posts, I see a frantic justification going on. I am praying that you find peace and can reconcile your life with the Church’s Teachings.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Natural law is something people apply when they feel like it and ignore when it suits them.

If I have 6 kids and will die if I have another one, the ONLY sensical, logical, moral thing to do is become sterilized. The very idea that I would not do this because of the idea that “sex was made for making babies” when it is a simple outpatient procedure that would save my life and harm no-one and help my marriage at he same time is absurd. The only thing more absurd is thinking that God would actually have a problem win this.

Actually this is not what natural law is. Your post is does not apply as it is not written from a correct and accurate understanding and application of what natural law means in the Catholic Church.

You know what I am just going to post one of my formal posts in this reply to save me formatting and typing headaches. I post this lest any are misled about to as what natural law is according to the Church’s understanding and teaching.

As promised here are the Catechism quotes. I know this is a lot of quoting, but much is said within these paragraphs.

#1954

Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:

The natural law is written and engraved on the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.

#1955

The “divine and natural” law shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one’s equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called “natural,” not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:

Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring.
The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.

#1956

The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:

For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense … To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.

#1957

Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles.

#1958

The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history; it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:

Theft is surely punished by your law, O Lord, and by the law that is written in the human heart, the law that iniquity itself does not efface.

#1959

The natural law, the Creator’s very good work, provides the solid foundation on which man can build the structure of moral rules to guide his choices. It also provides the indispensable moral foundation for building the human community. Finally, it provides the necessary basis for the civil law with which it is connected, whether by a reflection that draws conclusions from its principles, or by additions of a positive and juridical nature.

#1960

The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known “by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error.” The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

I’m not a theologian, but it sounds as if they are not truly repentant, and a priest should not absolve them of their sin until they are contrite over their sin. From what I have heard and read, that kind of disobedience is akin to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

(Open to correction here, if someone wants to take a stab at it)

Nope you are totally correct. God bless you for standing up and posting this. Thank you.

 

[Little_One0307]

Ike, I stated alreadythat the analogy was not a perfect or even close parallel of situations but of FEELINGS. I have repeatedly asked even one Catholic here to say what they would do if they suddenly discovered a mandatory Church directive that they found to be as morally offensive as I find this one (and so I gave an extreme example in order to give you all an idea of what that might feel like), and not one person has dared to answer whether they would follow the teaching anyway. I’m guessing it’s not very comfortable for any of you to think about. Welcome to my world.

Again we are not called to follow God or His teaching based on our Feelings, but on the authority of God revealing. How do you think God would respond to me, I went out and murdered several people and I died and was there before His Judgement seat and he asked why I murdered when the Church clearly stated it was wrong, [the Church states this is wrong because God has stated it is wrong.], what am I going to say, oh becuase I felt like it was right to murder, and so I acted on my feelings? Honestly what do you think God is going to say?, I don’t think it’s going to be a “Well done my good and faithful servant, come and share in the joy of heaven.”

I don’t think anyone’s answer can satisfy you becuase I think you are so locked into your view and are not open to the Teaching of the Church. Many posters have taken their time and generously posted many well thought out posts to help you. I have posted several posts in a row because I wish to again and again present the teaching of the Church.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Ike, if inthought this teaching came from God, all my problems would be solved. This is NOT about me rejecting God. Not at all.

God works through His Church. God guides our lives through His Church. You reject what the Church teaches and holds for the Faithful to practice and believe, guess what you are rejecting God.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

That is so not true. Jesus promised to GUIDE the Church into all truth, not that it would possess he whole truth at any given moment. The rigidiy of this teaching could very well change as doctrine develops. One misunderstanding would not make the whole Church a pile of junk. I never will understand why the faith of so many Catholics hinges so mug on the Church never EVER making even the tiniest of mistakes. My faith in the Church itself doesn’t depend on its total perfection. Maybe yours does. If so, I can see why you cling so hard to this. It’s a house of cards for some people I guess.

LaSainte,

Wow, this is just degenerating into all out attack against the Church and what she teaches because you are busy justifiying your position. The Church cannot err in doctrine. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus also said He would be with the Church even until the end of the ages. If Jesus is Truth, which he is, guess what Truth will be with the Church. You cannot separate Truth and Jesus from the Church.

If there was ONE dogma, ONE doctrine that was false, guess what everything would be false. You start an logical argument on a faulty premise, guess what the entire logical argument if false. You cannot have one false thing in 100 true things and call all of it truth. The slightest lie or falsity in something makes it not true. A half-truth is ALWAYS a lie.

I can see why you claim that the Church does not have ALL the Truth in any given time. Heaven help you if you did, then where would you be with your practice of contraception? You would be up that creek without a paddle for sure!!! So the best thing for you to do in this circumstance is to deny the Church having all the Truth. It’s really a convienent cop-out and justification for a wrong choice you are considering to make.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

To All,

I apologize for the multiple posting but it would have been way to confusing to multi-quote all those posts into one post. Thank you for your understanding and patience.

God bless.

 

[joclucsylv]

LaSainte, I know 100% where you are coming from. After my second was born, I came to this board for answers. I knew the Church taught contraception was wrong and that my parents didn’t use it, but in my area of the world where 95% of people are Catholic most use contraception. In fact, one would be hard pressed to find a Catholic in my area using NFP, and I have NEVER EVER hear a priest preach on birthcontrol. Anyways, I came here for answers.

What did I find?? The people on this board gave me more anxiety. I came here looking for comfort for my situation from other Catholics and never found it. I found much the opposite in fact. I had to step away from this board and find peace with my situation. That is what you need to do.

The Church isn’t God. It is not the Church who is going to judge you when you die. Do we worship the Church as an idol or do we worship God? As much as I love the Catholic church I don’t worship it. I worship God. We worship a merciful God who sees our hearts. I won’t get any support for my statement, because it is not part of the Catechism. And I will be shot down and killed on this board for that statement. The people on this board will condemn me to hell. That’s ok. If at the end of my life I have done the best I could to live a decent life, love God, live by his comandments then I have done well. If I stand in the judgement seat and he condemns me to hell…well…there will be alot of Catholics down there to play cards with. The bible does say that the road to heaven is narrow doesn’t it?? Truly LaSainte.,…I don’t believe anyone is really worthy of heaven. Not even those who follow the Catechism to the T!!!

This may seem off subject, but I would LOVE to know what percentage of people on this board are converts, what percentage have gone to Catholic school and what percentage are cradle Catholics who went to public school. I could be wrong, but it seems as though the converts are now the hard core Catholics who see no grey areas in life. I think that is great by the way. We do need people like that in the world.

Prayers your way LaSainte.

 

[LaSainte]

Thank you so much for that post joclucsylv. I think you’re right, I probably should step away from this issue on the board. It is not good for my faith. I was more amenable to this teaching BEFORE I asked the question.

 

[PRmerger]

Let’s add to this:

What if the reason for the sterilization was because the spouse would certainly die if pregnant again?
A life of celibacy then?

If there were some way to predict that a woman “would certainly die” if pregnant again, and as there is no birth control that is 100% effective, it seems the prudent thing to do is to abstain from sexual intercourse, no?

I mean, really, if it’s absolutely certain that the woman is going to die if she gets pregnant, would you risk it, knowing that each and every time you engage in the marital act there’s a chance that you could die as a result?

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you so much for that post joclucsylv. I think you’re right, I probably should step away from this issue on the board. It is not good for my faith. I was more amenable to this teaching BEFORE I asked the question.

Before you step away (and I wish you wouldn’t! ) would you mind answering what your view is on abortion, if you get pregnant with Baby #3?

 

[PRmerger]

LaSainte, I can relate to your desire to challenge the Church on this teaching. As I said earlier, I initially came because I struggled with the Church’s teaching on ABC (and I still do, in fact!).

'Tis true that there were many Catholics who excoriated me for questioning this teaching when I first joined the CAFs. Perhaps I needed to hear it. Perhaps they were uncharitable. I dunno.

But being here on the CAFs has provided me with much apologia; over the years my love/hate relationship with NFP has turned into a peaceful resignation. I still would much rather take a pill or never ever consider what the consequences of our lovemaking may bring…but such it is. If Jesus tells me to do , I do

And, as far as the Church not being God, well, yes and no.

As stated earlier, the only way you know that God is is because the Church has proclaimed it. As 1ke wrote: . Either the Church teaches all the Truth given by God or none can be trusted.

You can’t say, “God will forgive me in confession” and then say, “The Church is wrong about ABC” because both come from the same source: the Church.

 

[Corki]

If you only see sex with one’s beloved spouse as “a few paltry orgasms”, hen of course lifelong abstinence wouldn’t seem like a problem. If you only see women as baby-makers, then of course you would trivialize everything they might work to achieve that doesn’t involve changing dirty diapers and cleaning up spit-up.

I find your whole attitude and position to be offensive.

Now let’s not get mean after all this pages. One of the things that keeps getting glossed over is your idea that there is an “either or” choice that women must make. Have lots of kids or have a fulfilled life. That’s just not true.

Last month, a dear friend died. She had four kids and was one of the people who always encouraged me and other younger moms in the parish regarding NFP. Last year, I attened her retirement party. She was retiring after 53 years in a great career. She had TWO master degrees. Her tribute on the funeral home website shows pictures of all of her travels - she loved to go to Europe, Rome especially.

A few years ago, I worked for a company that had two awesome women in senior management. One of the VPs had triplets! She had an MBA as well. No “either - or” choice for her.

You are right there are many women who use ABC and are Catholic. But there are also many women who do not, who have larger families and also have educationally and professionally excelled.

If you believe you are only called ot have two children, that’s not a problem. I have only two kids but it wasn’t my choice. On the other hand, my best friend has only two because her husband said “no way” to a third. Sad for her but they have used NFP to avoid for well over 15 years.

I count myself in that category. I have a master’s degree, a fulfilling job and have/am raising 4 fabulous daughters. Of course, I couldn’t have done it without my honey, who is an amazing husband and father, and he cooks! And without my mom and MIL, who aided in chauffeuring all of our girls to all of the numerous activities.

Let’s add to this:

What if the reason for the sterilization was because the spouse would certainly die if pregnant again?
A life of celibacy then?

What exactly are you asking? Are you asking if there is an exception to Church teaching for such a stituation? The answer is “no”. Are you asking what a man should do if he was faced with this? Once married, he can’t become celibate. He can chose continence (forgoing sexual relations) but it wouldn’t be for life. It would just be until his spouse’s condtion improves or until she isn’t fertile any more. Or he and his wife could learn a conservative application of NFP.

FWIW, there are hardly any cases of “certainly die”. More commonly, a woman needs an extended time to heal between pregnancies or the condition is treatable otherwise. But we have one regular poster here who has a heart condition that would be extremely life-threatening if she were to become pregnant. She has posted many times on the conservative application of NFP.

 

[joclucsylv]

If there were some way to predict that a woman “would certainly die” if pregnant again, and as there is no birth control that is 100% effective, it seems the prudent thing to do is to abstain from sexual intercourse, no?

I mean, really, if it’s absolutely certain that the woman is going to die if she gets pregnant, would you risk it, knowing that each and every time you engage in the marital act there’s a chance that you could die as a result?

. It boils down to this doesn’t it. There is no comfort found in any situation in our faith because of the importance of suffering. We are to take our crosses and offer them up for the whatever God wants to do with that. As Christ suffered so must we. As much as I don’t want another child, I have to take the cross of potentially having 10 and offer iT up.

 

[Calliso]

That is so not true. Jesus promised to GUIDE the Church into all truth, not that it would possess he whole truth at any given moment. The rigidiy of this teaching could very well change as doctrine develops. One misunderstanding would not make the whole Church a pile of junk. I never will understand why the faith of so many Catholics hinges so mug on the Church never EVER making even the tiniest of mistakes. My faith in the Church itself doesn’t depend on its total perfection. Maybe yours does. If so, I can see why you cling so hard to this. It’s a house of cards for some people I guess.

Agreed I mean ultimately the Church is made up of humans. Humans that can make mistakes and misintepret. So the idea that one must throw out every teaching simply because one teaching was found to be flawed is silly. You donlt throw out alll the teachings you take a look at the flawed one and try to figure out where you went wrong!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

FWIW, there are hardly any cases of “certainly die”. More commonly, a woman needs an extended time to heal between pregnancies or the condition is treatable otherwise. But we have one regular poster here who has a heart condition that would be extremely life-threatening if she were to become pregnant. She has posted many times on the conservative application of NFP.

FWIW, hardly does not mean there are none.

The person in question has Myasthenia Gravis, Osteo Arthritis, Celiac, and Fibromyalgia at only 32 years old. She was hospitalized 3 times on her 4th pregnancy, after the doctors stressed that she should avoid another pregnancy because she was hospitalized several times on her 3rd one and I believe she was bed-ridden for the last 2-3 months of her pregnancy.

Her husband is a devout christian and a dear friend of mine. I fail to see his decision to become sterile as a mortal sin. But maybe that’s why (of many other reasons) I am no longer Roman Catholic. That is between him and God and no other imperfect and mortal man, IMHO. You can go rant against all other churches now, since the RCC is perfect and inerrant.

 

[Calliso]

LaSainte, I know 100% where you are coming from. After my second was born, I came to this board for answers. I knew the Church taught contraception was wrong and that my parents didn’t use it, but in my area of the world where 95% of people are Catholic most use contraception. In fact, one would be hard pressed to find a Catholic in my area using NFP, and I have NEVER EVER hear a priest preach on birthcontrol. Anyways, I came here for answers.

What did I find?? The people on this board gave me more anxiety. I came here looking for comfort for my situation from other Catholics and never found it. I found much the opposite in fact. I had to step away from this board and find peace with my situation. That is what you need to do.

**The Church isn’t God. It is not the Church who is going to judge you when you die. Do we worship the Church as an idol or do we worship God? As much as I love the Catholic church I don’t worship it. I worship God. ** We worship a merciful God who sees our hearts. I won’t get any support for my statement, because it is not part of the Catechism. And I will be shot down and killed on this board for that statement. The people on this board will condemn me to hell. That’s ok. If at the end of my life I have done the best I could to live a decent life, love God, live by his comandments then I have done well. If I stand in the judgement seat and he condemns me to hell…well…there will be alot of Catholics down there to play cards with. The bible does say that the road to heaven is narrow doesn’t it?? Truly LaSainte.,…I don’t believe anyone is really worthy of heaven. Not even those who follow the Catechism to the T!!!

This may seem off subject, but I would LOVE to know what percentage of people on this board are converts, what percentage have gone to Catholic school and what percentage are cradle Catholics who went to public school. I could be wrong, but it seems as though the converts are now the hard core Catholics who see no grey areas in life. I think that is great by the way. We do need people like that in the world.

Prayers your way LaSainte.

So true! Ultimately yes it is important to remember the Church isn;t God. Or is any other Christian church for that matter. We are judged by God but it seems that sometimes people here forget that and do seem to elevate the Church to the level of being God.

 

[LaSainte]

Before you step away (and I wish you wouldn’t! ) would you mind answering what your view is on abortion, if you get pregnant with Baby #3?

Well good Lord of course I don’t believe in abortion. It is murder. Sick.

 

[LaSainte]

If there were some way to predict that a woman “would certainly die” if pregnant again, and as there is no birth control that is 100% effective, it seems the prudent thing to do is to abstain from sexual intercourse, no?

I mean, really, if it’s absolutely certain that the woman is going to die if she gets pregnant, would you risk it, knowing that each and every time you engage in the marital act there’s a chance that you could die as a result?

Having your uterus removed would do the trick. 100% effective.

 

[Corki]

. It boils down to this doesn’t it. There is no comfort found in any situation in our faith because of the importance of suffering. We are to take our crosses and offer them up for the whatever God wants to do with that. As Christ suffered so must we. As much as I don’t want another child, I have to take the cross of potentially having 10 and offer iT up.

See, you never told us that you already have nine children. Wow!