Sterilization followed by confession?

[Little_One0307]

So true! Ultimately yes it is important to remember the Church isn;t God. Or is any other Christian church for that matter. We are judged by God but it seems that sometimes people here forget that and do seem to elevate the Church to the level of being God.

I think the replies to the Church being God are unfounded. I think people are misunderstanding the term of what it means that it is God who has divenely revealed acting through His Church.

He said He would be with the Church, not the Church. IT is God’s authority that is passed to the Church and works through the Church. The Church will never declare anything doctrinally as a matter of Faith and Morals that contradict God. God keeps the Church from error. IT is HIS authority that works through the Church. Again I repeat, if we do not follow the Teachings of the Church, who is authorized by Jesus to pass down His Teachings, we ultimatley do not follow God. You cannot ingnore the Churche’s teachings and follow Christ at the same time.

The Church is not judging, she holds that God alone judges. However the Church does not step down from proclaiming the Truth.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

You are attempting to find a loophole in the moral teachings of the Church and are resentful that you can’t do it? Seriously? Are you a lawyer by profession?

Sins are discrete. AFAIK, your contrite confessions for anything else can be forgiven.

But what’s the point? If a battlefield medic patches up 3 out of 4 of your massively bleeding wounds, you are still going to bleed to death.

If you’ve done this, go to confession anyways, confess it all (including the sterilization), admit your non-repentance for the sterilization and your opinion that you know better than the church on that issue and ask for his prayer and blessing. You maynot get absolution, but God works in funny ways sometimes. Maybe you’ll end up discovering a dimension to the world you hadn’t thought of before.

Besides, if you really are right and the Church has been wrong for 2,000 years on contraception, do you think God’s going to hold it against you? The sacraments were created to liberate us, not to constrain God. Go, confess, pray, listen. You’ve got nothing to loose but sins.

Great post. Thumbs up.

 

[Little_One0307]

You’re right. We should all be open to having as many children as we happen to conceive. If NFP doesn’t work for us, oh well it was God’s will. What is the Church teaching on having a bunch of kids you don’t want and putting them all in a basket on the side of the road with a sign marked “Free Babies”?

It’s not about that. It’s about being open to what God is teaching through His Church. It’s about being open to His Will and not deciding to play God when something comes up that we don’t agree with.

Your question is irrevelent because of where it is coming out of. I have read many of your posts and you are mixing many arugments that are intrinsically false to support your position. I do see some suffering I do agreee, but mostly resentment, justification, and an unwillingness to be open to the Catholic position or Teaching.

I am happy with those posters who have supported the Church’s Teaching Authority and tip my hat off to them.

It basically boils down to following the Church and God or disobeying the Church and God. You cannot disobeythe Church and obey God at the same time.

I can see from these posts that you are not willing to change your view that is contrary to Church Teaching, and by the grace of God I will not change my view differently from the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

God bless.

 

[vsedriver]

Let’s add to this:

What if the reason for the sterilization was because the spouse would certainly die if pregnant again?
A life of celibacy then?

your spouse has a blood transfusion and contracts HIV. Would you choose a life of celibacy?

Why is it that people think celibacy is akin to dying? That you can’t be celibate and love someone? If you need sex to hold your marriage together then there is something wrong with your marriage.

 

[joclucsylv]

Great post. Thumbs up.

OK…so let’s say my husband and I never ever want another bambino and we use NFP for the rest of our fertile lives is that a sin because I am using NFP to be selfish?

 

[vsedriver]

You’re right. We should all be open to having as many children as we happen to conceive. If NFP doesn’t work for us, oh well it was God’s will. What is the Church teaching on having a bunch of kids you don’t want and putting them all in a basket on the side of the road with a sign marked “Free Babies”?

LOL! the church supports adoption. Feel free to make some sterile couple insanely happy.

 

[Rence]

your spouse has a blood transfusion and contracts HIV. Would you choose a life of celibacy?

Why is it that people think celibacy is akin to dying? That you can’t be celibate and love someone? If you need sex to hold your marriage together then there is something wrong with your marriage.

IMOHO, there is a difference between a couple who can’t have relations because they can’t either due to a physical limitation or due to threat of disease transmission, and not being able to or else an unwanted pregnancy will occur. I know very very few people who would have serious issue with not being able to have relations with their spouse because their spouse physically couldn’t do to illness, etc. But when there aren’t those barriers, it’s a tougher issue if both are not on board with NFP or extended abstinence. And by “both not on board with NFP”, I don’t mean that both have decided that it’s not the right time for another child. In the situation I am referring to, it’s a given that both spouses don’t want another child for whatever reason, at that time. What I mean by “both not on board with NFP” is that either or both don’t want to use NFP or extended abstinence.

Let’s be honest. When NFP is not a stumbling block for people, and both are on board with its usage, it’s just not an issue. Sex with one’s spouse doesn’t become that important when this particular teaching is not a stumbling block. But when it is a stumbling block for people, and either or both are not on board with it’s usage, it can destroy a marriage. That’s just a fact of life. We can agree or disagree with the rules of the Church, and we can either buy or not buy the rationales they have come up with for their rules. But the fact is, some folks have no problem with this teaching and some do. Some need the physical bond that come with sex with their spouse, and some can give it up easily for a while. Not everyone is the same.

LaSaint, I understand that you are completely strung out, anxious and stressed by this teaching. You need to talk to a good priest because they are trained to help you. They may even be able to get you to understand the teachings and the rationales for them. And even if you never understand, or never agree with the teachings, he may be able to help you deal with them. You feel the way you feel, it’s making you angry (understandibly) and it’s not going to change until things fall together for you. Anxiety and stress are difficult to deal with. Your problems are very real to you even though they are not real to others. But don’t get too discouraged and dispair. Even though some people are perfectly A-OK with this teaching, and even though they may be perfectly A-OK with never ever having sex ever again forever and ever — they have a stumbling block elsewhere This is yours. So get real help to figure it out.

You’re a good person and you’re a good Catholic trying your best. I know that you love God because if you didn’t, you wouldn’t be so stressed and freaked out. You’d just break the rules and not care. You wouldn’t try to rationalize and find a way around the teachings. You wouldn’t even give them a thought. You wouldn’t get upset because you wouldn’t care. So I have to give you credit for actually trying to muddle through your crisis. I will pray for you so find a way through your struggles and that you find relief from the problems that are weighing so hard on you. You’re not alone though. I understand you, and so do many.

 

[LaSainte]

Thank you Rence and vsedriver for your kind and grounding responses I truly do appreciate it and they have given me something to think about.

 

[smichhertz]

Thank you so much for such an inquisitive and compassionate response . I would be happy to share my struggle with his teaching.

You’re welcome! Thanks for sharing and sorry I took so long to respond, I am just now getting caught up on this thread.

I am 34, pregnant with baby #2. Baby # 1 turns 2 this month. I was apparently very poorly catechized, so I never really had a chance to “grow up” knowing these teachings. I basically found out how “bad” contraception is supposed to be a few years ago, and only when my son was born did I start to really adhere to my faith in a serious way.

Unfortunately, this is a common problem. Many Catholics have been very poorly catechized. This isn’t your fault, but kudos to you for taking initiative to catechize yourself!

I also just found out that there is more to infallibility than papal infallibility. So basically it was just sort of dumped on me that everything I have ever planned and wanted for my life (my degree, my goals, the way I have always wanted to raise my family) might as well be thrown in the toilet because now I’m just relegated to being “open” to having more kids than I can afford, more kids than I ever wanted, to giving up everything I have r dreamed of to possibly ending up a mother of 6 crying myself to sleep every night wondering what the heck happened to my life.

For what it’s worth, my Mom is a mother of 6 and currently has two masters. She is starting to pick her career back up since she is about to become an empty nest Mom. Being a mom certainly interferes with your career, but really it just postpones it until later in life.

If you don’t mind me asking, why can’t you use NFP? The reasons you state are all about not wanting a lot of kids, but you can use NFP and only have 2 kids just as well as ABC. I’m confused as to why you feel the need to sterilize / use ABC.

Add to that the fact that I have tried so hard to believe that God actually doesn’t want us using ABC to the point of it being a mortal sin to no avail. No matter what I read about infallibility or about the unitive and procreative nature of marital sex, no matter how I pray to God for clarity and assurance, I JUST don’t believe that ABC is a sin. I don’t. I think God wants us to be the best parents we can be to the kids we have, to the kids we want, and I believe that He also wants us to follow our OWN dreams and fulfill our own passions, not just throw our whole lives in the trash and live in misery because we can’t stop having kids we don’t want.

A few things that I find helpful when I struggle with a Church teaching:

1. Get a spiritual director. And meet with him every month, no exceptions. You’ll be amazed how quickly you’ll grow in faith and holiness. If you don’t already have one, get one.
2. Frequent Confession / Communion. Start going to confession once a week (if you are not doing so already. Going to confession regularly forces us to take more stock of our sins, sometimes when we let go too long before we confess, we unknowingly start to become blinded by our sins (even just venial sins). Daily mass will also do wonders for you. Receiving Communion every day absolutely helps!
3. Pray the rosary every day. The Rosary is like a spiritual weapon of mass destruction. It eradicates sin and helps us fall deeply in love with Christ. If we could all love Christ as Mary loves Christ, there wouldn’t be any sin!
4. Spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Spend at least 5 minutes every day with the Lord. Ask Him to help you understand the Church’s teaching, or just vent your frustrations, I think you’ll find that helpful. If possible, try and do a Holy Hour once a week as well.

Finally, sometimes I think God deliberately hides full knowledge of the Truth from us so that we can learn to love Him even without intellectual assent. I have a friend that recently married and confided in me that she just plain doesn’t get the Church’s position on ABC. But, she told me, she still follows it because she does believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. I think what she is doing was a great act of faith and love to God and a powerful witness. It’s a beautiful thing to experience. Perhaps this is why Our Lord said to the doubting Thomas “Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe”. It truly is a beautiful thing.

I know that was excruciatingly long. Thanks for reading

No problem, thanks for sharing! Sorry I took so long to respond, I hope I was able to help you in some way. I’ll be sure to keep you in my prayers!

 

[adoglover1956]

The problem is, then they’re probably not sorry. To be honest, the only way to show that they are truly sorry is to at least attempt to get it reversed. /

Not sure where you have learned that from…but I don’t believe it’s correct regarding getting it reversed. Now if the person is not truly sorry…then that is a whole different story in itself.

 

[adoglover1956]

The problem is, then they’re probably not sorry. To be honest, the only way to show that they are truly sorry is to at least attempt to get it reversed.

I’m not sure where you got the info that reversing it is required…but I don’t believe that is correct if the person is truly sorry. Now if the person is not truly sorry, then that’s a whole different story.

And, you’ve stated that you’re usually liberal regarding confession…I don’t think that stands well with the Church either. When I go to confession, which is frequently since I’m fallen, there is no such thing as liberal. It’s all or nothing.

Just my opinion.

 

[smichhertz]

smichhertz;8067167:

The problem is, then they’re probably not sorry. To be honest, the only way to show that they are truly sorry is to at least attempt to get it reversed.

Not sure where you have learned that from…but I don’t believe it’s correct. Now if the person is not truly sorry…then that is a whole different story in itself.

Hey adoglover1956!

Welcome to CAF! I hope you enjoy your experience here. Feel free to post anytime you have a question/comment!

With the scenario the OP described, it was indicating that the person was deliberately seeking a loophole to be sterilized. In such a state where they presume on God’s mercy, it seriously calls into question their contrition.

For that reason, I stated that an ATTEMPT at reversal would be an external act to show they were sorry. That’s not to say if they didn’t attempt to get it reversed, their future confessions would definitely be invalid.

 

[adoglover1956]

Hey adoglover1956!

Welcome to CAF! I hope you enjoy your experience here. Feel free to post anytime you have a question/comment!

With the scenario the OP described, it was indicating that the person was deliberately seeking a loophole to be sterilized. In such a state where they presume on God’s mercy, it seriously calls into question their contrition.

For that reason, I stated that an ATTEMPT at reversal would be an external act to show they were sorry. That’s not to say if they didn’t attempt to get it reversed, their future confessions would definitely be invalid.

Thanks Steve…appreciate the welcome. I think I had to edit the post 4 times before I got the quotes correct.

 

[Rence]

With the scenario the OP described, it was indicating that the person was deliberately seeking a loophole to be sterilized. In such a state where they presume on God’s mercy, it seriously calls into question their contrition.

Is it possible to be sorry for offending God, yet not being sorry for the sin iteself? For example, someone who has offended God by giving into temptation and had premarital sex, and even further, has become pregnant due to that moment of weakness…isn’t it possible that they may be very sorry for offending God, for breaking a rule of the Church ---- but then, certainly…how could they be sorry for conceiving a child? And are they truly sorry for actually having premarital sex? Nine months later they might be actually happy as a pig in poo that they were weak at that moment nine months ago when they sinned and broke the rules.

 

[smichhertz]

Thanks Steve…appreciate the welcome. I think I had to edit the post 4 times before I got the quotes correct.

Haha! Yeah it can be a little confusing. You can hit the “quote” button next to any post to respond specifically to that post, just leave the "

" tags alone.

If you want to quote multiple posts, click the http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/multiquote_off.gif icon for each post you want to quote, then click the Post Reply button and it will all be there in your post.

If you have more technical questions, you can post it here: forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=98

Or you can test stuff out here: forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=93

Once again, welcome!

 

[Corki]

Is it possible to be sorry for offending God, yet not being sorry for the sin iteself? For example, someone who has offended God by giving into temptation and had premarital sex, and even further, has become pregnant due to that moment of weakness…isn’t it possible that they may be very sorry for offending God, for breaking a rule of the Church ---- but then, certainly…how could they be sorry for conceiving a child? And are they truly sorry for actually having premarital sex? Nine months later they might be actually happy as a pig in poo that they were weak at that moment nine months ago when they sinned and broke the rules.

Absolutely.

Many, many, posts ago I was trying to make that point. The Church doesn’t require that you “*feel *sorry” or that you even “*feel *quilty”. Contrition is not about feeling. It is an act of the will to recognize that you were wrong and that you want to regain Communion with God and the Church. As well as a firm ammendment to avoid the sin in the future.

 

[smichhertz]

Is it possible to be sorry for offending God, yet not being sorry for the sin iteself? For example, someone who has offended God by giving into temptation and had premarital sex, and even further, has become pregnant due to that moment of weakness…isn’t it possible that they may be very sorry for offending God, for breaking a rule of the Church ---- but then, certainly…how could they be sorry for conceiving a child? And are they truly sorry for actually having premarital sex? Nine months later they might be actually happy as a pig in poo that they were weak at that moment nine months ago when they sinned and broke the rules.

Hi Rence!

Our actions can have both good and bad effects. So in the scenario you described, one can be sorry for the sin of premarital sex, yet recognize the good that came out of it - a child. Another example would be if someone left the Church and committed all kinds of sins, and then repented and came back. They may regret the sin, but not regret the lesson learned from the sin (which would be a good effect of the sin).

So yes, in the scenario you described that person would definitely be sorry and their confessions would be valid.

Hope that helps!

 

[Corki]

Still, not one person has answered my question as to what they would do if they woke up and found out there was a Catholic teaching as offensive and immoral as I find the total ban on ABC. I WONDER WHY?

Tha’t probably because we have a hard time understand what teaching of the Church’s could be so offensive. Even the teaching on ABC is hard but to say that it’s immoral is difficult to comprehend.

You are angry and, in my opinion, you have every right to be. Who ever did your marriage prep did you a great disservice. But you are projecting that anger on the Church and that’s not right.

 

[joclucsylv]

Absolutely.

Many, many, posts ago I was trying to make that point. The Church doesn’t require that you “*feel *sorry” or that you even “*feel *quilty”. Contrition is not about feeling. It is an act of the will to recognize that you were wrong and that you want to regain Communion with God and the Church. As well as a firm ammendment to avoid the sin in the future.

Thank you so much Rence and Corki for this post.

 

[smichhertz]

Absolutely.

Many, many, posts ago I was trying to make that point. The Church doesn’t require that you “*feel *sorry” or that you even “*feel *quilty”. Contrition is not about feeling. It is an act of the will to recognize that you were wrong and that you want to regain Communion with God and the Church. As well as a firm ammendment to avoid the sin in the future.

I started a thread on this long ago. Too often people think because they don’t feel sorry that their confessions aren’t valid. Then they stop going to confession all together. It’s very sad, because they don’t realize that feeling sorry isn’t required at all.