Sterilization followed by confession?

[sw85]

Welp then…if I am going to commit a mortal sin, it may as will be ABC.

It just boggles me that NFPers are all out to save the ABCers souls, when their souls are probably in danger as well if they are using NFP with the contraceptive attitude. What it boils down to is that we are all on earth trying so hard to do our best.

The point is that the contraceptive act is always disordered, no matter what. NFP is disordered only when the intention is disordered.

But why do you assume then you are “going to commit a mortal sin”? It is true that it’s difficult to avoid some kind of sin (even an uncharitable thought, briefly entertained, is a venial sin), but it’s not so difficult to avoid mortal sins. Why not simply eliminate the possible risk and conform your behavior to the truth revealed to us by natural law, and by the God who ordained it?

 

[Bookcat]

Welp then…if I am going to commit a mortal sin, it may as will be ABC.

It just boggles me that NFPers are all out to save the ABCers souls, when their souls are probably in danger as well if they are using NFP with the contraceptive attitude. What it boils down to is that we are all on earth trying so hard to do our best.

False assumption.

 

[Corki]

Welp then…if I am going to commit a mortal sin, it may as will be ABC.

It just boggles me that NFPers are all out to save the ABCers souls, when their souls are probably in danger as well if they are using NFP with the contraceptive attitude. What it boils down to is that we are all on earth trying so hard to do our best.

I don’t see anyone here trying to save someone else’s soul. It’s a matter of education.

None of us is without sin. But that doesn’t mean we should stop sharing the teaching of the Church. If only those without sin were able to do that, it would be pretty quiet. Not even the Pope would be able to teach us anything.

We can try hard to follow Christ and His Church but we all fail sometimes. And at other times we try to do our ‘best’ based on other factors and not follow Christ and His Church.

It may be a small comfort but I think it’s better to try and sometimes fail to follow the Church rather than try it on my own and fail in spite of the Church.

 

[ddarko]

Bottom line, they are both Mortal sins.

No. I think you need to read again.

ABC, ALWAYS A MORTAL SIN. Why? Because it is an intrinsically immoral act.

NFP, is dependent on intention. BUT practicing NFP is not a MORTAL SIN by it-self.

What you are saying is absurd as you can see from the example below:-

Giving to the poor with bad intention (to become famous etc) is a mortal sin. Therefore, bottom line, giving to the poor and Murder are both mortal sins.

As I hope you can see from the above example, your line of reasoning is incorrect.

God Bless

 

[joclucsylv]

Yes, but not because of what they are using for birth control. It would still be a mortal sin if they decided to practice **complete abstinence **after their wedding night because they didn’t want children. It is the purposeful and willful exclusion of children after promising at the altar to welcome children, that makes NFP or total abstinence mortally sinful.

So there ends my discussion. Thank you all for being very patient with me.

 

[Debora123]

When a couple checks mucous, cervical position, takes their temperature, uses an ovulation predictor kit and scientifically charts all of this information and then uses that information to make absolutely certain that they never, EVER have sex on a day when here might even e the slightest chance of the presence of an egg, whether they feel like having sex or not, for he sole purpose of NOT comceiving a child, then yes, that couple is most certainly telling God in no uncertain terms that they do NOT want a child.

I KNOW, right??

It’s just so weird to me as well…

 

[ddarko]

I KNOW, right??

It’s just so weird to me as well…

Read my post #511 and let me know if you still have any questions. Would be glad to help clear up any confusion.

God Bless

 

[joclucsylv]

The point is that the contraceptive act is always disordered, no matter what. NFP is disordered only when the intention is disordered.

But why do you assume then you are “going to commit a mortal sin”? It is true that it’s difficult to avoid some kind of sin (even an uncharitable thought, briefly entertained, is a venial sin), but it’s not so difficult to avoid mortal sins. Why not simply eliminate the possible risk and conform your behavior to the truth revealed to us by natural law, and by the God who ordained it?

Because I don’t want to be Mother Hubbard. I have my 2. I am done. I would be using NFP with the contraceptive mindset which would be mortal sin. Sterilization is also mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal sin.

 

[sw85]

Because I don’t want to be Mother Hubbard. I have my 2. I am done. I would be using NFP with the contraceptive mindset which would be mortal sin. Sterilization is also mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal sin.

If you really feel that you cannot use NFP in a licit manner (that is, because it would be genuinely injurious to your family to have another child, not because you simply don’t want another one), then perhaps you are called to a period of abstinence until your fertility passes.

 

[joclucsylv]

If you really feel that you cannot use NFP in a licit manner (that is, because it would be genuinely injurious to your family to have another child, not because you simply don’t want another one), then perhaps you are called to a period of abstinence until your fertility passes.

No sex for the next 20 years???:bigyikes: Now tell me how would that be good. That would make my marriage very unhappy. That would make my husband masturbate. Ya…ok.

 

[Good_Daughter]

And the most quoted post award goes to:

When a couple checks mucous, cervical position, takes their temperature, uses an ovulation predictor kit and scientifically charts all of this information and then uses that information to make absolutely certain that they never, EVER have sex on a day when here might even e the slightest chance of the presence of an egg, whether they feel like having sex or not, for he sole purpose of NOT comceiving a child, then yes, that couple is most certainly telling God in no uncertain terms that they do NOT want a child.

But what if God has allowed a huge obstacle to child-bearing in your life (ie. just the thought of another baby makes you queasy)? Isn’t that more like Him telling you something (ie. use your resources to not conceive)?

When you’ve got good reason, what’s wrong with NOT wanting a child?

 

[Good_Daughter]

Because I don’t want to be Mother Hubbard. I have my 2. I am done. I would be using NFP with the contraceptive mindset which would be mortal sin. Sterilization is also mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal sin.

There’s not necessarily anything wrong with being done after two. NFP can be used by faithful Catholics to avoid pregnancy indefinitely. Just use it prayerfully and God will give you the grace you need.

 

[Corki]

Because I don’t want to be Mother Hubbard. I have my 2. I am done. I would be using NFP with the contraceptive mindset which would be mortal sin. Sterilization is also mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal sin.

Ok, I know I have said this before but… I just don’t buy into this terminology taking about, using NFP with a “contraceptive mindset” or with "contraceptive intent’. NFP is not and cannot be, contraceptive.

Frankly, it’s really hard to use NFP in a sinful way. Some examples.

Couple A does not want kids at all. They say their vows, including the one to welcome children lovingly, with a “wink wink, nudge nudge” and use NFP to make sure they never have any children at all. They have no medical or other serious reason; they just don’t “see themselves as parents”. Since part of marriage is to be fruitful, this couple is likely sinning unless they change thier mind after 5, 10 or some other number of years of marriage. But how rare would that really be? A couple with that mindset is likely to have much bigger issues than contraception.

Couple B has two kids. One spouse (husband or wife) is really anxious about financially supporting more. They would be able to feed and clothe more but putting 3 or more kids through college seems really unlikely. Not sinnning.

Couple C has two kids. Wife is overwhelmed and dreams about the day she has a few hours to herself after the kids hit school age. No financial or medical worries but emotionally, she doesn’t even want to think about another kid yet or at all. They use NFP to avoid another child. Not sinning.

Couple D has two kids. Wife doesn’t want another for basically the same reasons as Wife C but she never has any real discussions with her husband. She just locks him out of the bedroom on fertile days. They use NFP to avoid another child. Prpbably sinning.

Couple E has two kids. Wife gave up school to work while her husband finished grad school. They had their kids early in their marriage because they wanted to be young enough to enjoy them. Now wife wants her turn to finish her education and maybe pursue a career. They use NFP to avoid another child. Not sinning.

Couple F has two kids. The last pregnancy was kind of hard and the wife had a very difficult labor. Doctor suggested waiting at least two years before becoming pregnant again. It’s two years later and wife if ready but husband is still scared. He was terrified when he saw the difficulties his wife went through. They are older and if they don’t have a kid soon, the biological clock will be working against them. They use NFP to avoid another child. Not sinning.

Couple G has two kids. They have their boy and girl and just think that’s a perfectly good size for a family. They have plenty of money, are in good health and happy as can be. They don’t prayerfully consider having any more kids, they just say “no”. They use NFP to avoid another child. Since they don’t have a serious, just or unselfish reason to avoid more children, and because they aren’t including thier faith in God in their decision, they might be sinning.

 

[Bookcat]

And the most quoted post award goes to:But what if God has allowed a huge obstacle to child-bearing in your life (ie. just the thought of another baby makes you queasy)? Isn’t that more like Him telling you something (ie. use your resources to not conceive)?

When you’ve got good reason, what’s wrong with NOT wanting a child?

For serious reasons one may practice NFP to avoid

 

[ddarko]

Because I don’t want to be Mother Hubbard. I have my 2. I am done. I would be using NFP with the contraceptive mindset which would be mortal sin. Sterilization is also mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal sin.

You are looking at this the wrong way.

Assuming you cannot support more children (this is between you and God), you may practice NFP now for the rest of your life with the intent to not have children and there would be nothing immoral about it.

You are only called to be open to life if God gives you life from now on. So if by some miracle, after you have sex you find that you are pregnant, be ready to praise God and accept it with the trust that God will provide.

In the mean time, if you become capable of supporting more children in the future, then you might also want to reconsider the practice of NFP.

Also, please spend a bit of time to understand why contraception is INTRINSICALLY immoral. You are called to accept your spouse’s fertility and him yours during the act of sex. To do otherwise is the violation by ABC’s. NFP does not violate this.

However, as you also seem to see, it can be immoral to practice NFP from the moment the marriage to the rest of it with the goal of avoiding children (Unless there is some medical or just reason to do so).

But in any case, NFP is not intrinsically immoral while contraception is. The more you understand the distinction and the reasons behind it, the more you will understand Catholic teaching.

God Bless

 

[PJM]

=LaSainte;8067106]If a person disagrees fundamentally with Church teaching on contraception, to the point where after YEARS of prayer and study, honestly believes the Church to be in error on this, believes that God does not have a problem with contraception, etc., and decides to become sterilized, what happens?

If this person decided to get sterilized and then confess to the priest that although they are sorry to have gone against the Church, they do not believe that what they did was a grave sin and are happy with the outcome, and also confesses the sin of presumption (since they intended to be sterilized and confess it all along), would they be able to be absolved and start receiving communion again?

This is not a debate about contraception.

No friend; this is a discussion about TRUTH.

My favorite Catholic Author; ***His Excellency Archbishop Futon Sheen ***tells us WISELY that: “TRUTH REMAINS TRUTH EVEN IF NOBODY BELIEVES IT AND A LIE REMAINS A LIE EVEN IF EVERYONE BELIEVES IT.”

Truth was a favorite topic of ***Blessed John Paul II ***who even authored an Encyclical entitled: “SPLENDOR OF THE TRUTH." His holiness Pope Benedict XVI picked up right where ***JP II ***left of. In His Inaugural Homily having just accepted The Chair of Peter” shared also this fact about truth. “THERE CANNOT BE YOUR TRUTH AND MY TRUTH OR THERE WOULD BE NO TRUTH.”

Once who KNOWS the Position of the CC [which mirrors that of Christ Himself] …
Gen.38: 6-10 “And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Then Judah [the Father of both sons] said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; ***so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also. ***

Contraception mimics this same disreguard for GOD’s WILL. And the consequence will be SPIRTTUAL DEATH. It is always a Mortal sin.

One MAYNOT claim the personal choice of conscience BECAUSE we ALL have a GRAVE Moral Obligation to have a PROPERLY INFORMED CONSCIENCE. To pretend that God will not read ones heart is underestimating our God.

Here is the Teaching of Our Church from the Catholic Catechism:

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

SINCERE Thanks for asking!

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[Little_One0307]

No friend; this is a discussion about TRUTH.

My favorite Catholic Author; ***His Excellency Archbishop Futon Sheen ***tells us WISELY that: “TRUTH REMAINS TRUTH EVEN IF NOBODY BELIEVES IT AND A LIE REMAINS A LIE EVEN IF EVERYONE BELIEVES IT.”

Truth was a favorite topic of ***Blessed John Paul II ***who even authored an Encyclical entitled: “SPLENDOR OF THE TRUTH." His holiness Pope Benedict XVI picked up right where ***JP II ***left of. In His Inaugural Homily having just accepted The Chair of Peter” shared also this fact about truth. “THERE CANNOT BE YOUR TRUTH AND MY TRUTH OR THERE WOULD BE NO TRUTH.”

Once who KNOWS the Position of the CC [which mirrors that of Christ Himself] …
Gen.38: 6-10 “And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Then Judah [the Father of both sons] said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; ***so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also. ***

Contraception mimics this same disreguard for GOD’s WILL. And the consequence will be SPIRTTUAL DEATH. It is always a Mortal sin.

One MAYNOT claim the personal choice of conscience BECAUSE we ALL have a GRAVE Moral Obligation to have a PROPERLY INFORMED CONSCIENCE. To pretend that God will not read ones heart is underestimating our God.

Here is the Teaching of Our Church from the Catholic Catechism:

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

SINCERE Thanks for asking!

God Bless you,
Pat

Pat,

It is refreshing to step away from this thread and see you and the others standing up for the Truth and the Magisterium. I have had to step away for a few days.

Ddarko thank you for you posts, they have been most refreshing to read as well.

God bless.

 

[sw85]

No sex for the next 20 years???:bigyikes: Now tell me how would that be good. That would make my marriage very unhappy. That would make my husband masturbate. Ya…ok.

It would be good because it would be virtuous.

But personally, I don’t really see NFP as rising to the level of sin in your case, as you describe it. If you cannot bear the thought of another child, then clearly it would not be a good idea to bring another child into your family; that child may well suffer as a result of it.

Obviously I’m no theologian; try talking to your priest about it. As Corki suggests, it is, I think, a lot harder to sin with NFP than with contraception, especially given the Church’s teachings.

 

[PRmerger]

Bottom line, they are both Mortal sins.

No, jocluc. Practicing NFP with a contraceptive mentality would not be a mortal sin. Please review my post #498.

"Therefore, those who choose NFP wrongly, although they do wrong, they do not do the same thing as those who contracept."

 

[PRmerger]

I would be using NFP with the contraceptive mindset which would be mortal sin.

Nope.
[SIGN1]
Therefore, those who choose NFP wrongly, although they do wrong, they do not do the same thing as those who contracept.[/SIGN1]

See source from post #498