Sterilization followed by confession?

[AnotherChance]

Kudos and prayers to those faithful Catholics who keep defending the truth on this thread. This whole forum at times seems to me to be Anti-Catholic.com. It is a great ministry that there are so many willing to continue to stand up for truth. I hope that when my kids are older I will have more time to help in this cause.

 

[Little_One0307]

Kudos and prayers to those faithful Catholics who keep defending the truth on this thread. This whole forum at times seems to me to be Anti-Catholic.com. It is a great ministry that there are so many willing to continue to stand up for truth. I hope that when my kids are older I will have more time to help in this cause.

I’ll second that. :yup:

 

[joclucsylv]

Kudos and prayers to those faithful Catholics who keep defending the truth on this thread. This whole forum at times seems to me to be Anti-Catholic.com. It is a great ministry that there are so many willing to continue to stand up for truth. I hope that when my kids are older I will have more time to help in this cause.

It has nothing to do with being anti-Catholic. It has to do with other Catholics learning. A debate is sometimes the best way to learn. But…whatever you think.

 

[LaSainte]

I posted this analogy in another thread, but it might be relevant here:

Suppose I am a cab driver who gets paid by the hour, not by the number of rides I give. I am lazy and want to get paid without actually giving anyone a ride. So here is what I do. On the nights when the opera is playing, I wait around the ballpark. And on nights when there is a baseball game, I sit outside the opera house. Neat, eh? Needless to say, my cab is rarely hailed and I get to sit a lot. Now my boss complains that I am not doing my job. My response to him is that I am physically open to giving people cab rides. I am doing the very thing that, at other times, would result in getting customers. But I am using my knowledge of timing (like NFP) to avoid that consequence.

Now there is another cab driver (call him “Bill”) who also is lazy like me, but he avoids work a different way. He waits in his cab at the proper venue, but he hangs a dead fish in the window to discourage customers with the smell (like contraception). Needless to say, our boss is not very happy with him either.

So is there a substantial difference between my technique of avoiding work and the one Bill uses?

Nope. Either your boss cares whether or not you give rides to as many people as possible or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t care how MANY rides you give, so long as you do your best with the rides you DO give and take good care of your customers, then both means of avoiding it are fine. If he wants you to give as many rides as possible until your wheels fall off and your car is reduced to a pile of garbage, blowing up and possibly killing you in the process, then neither means of avoiding giving rides is acceptable.

 

[LaSainte]

And the most quoted post award goes to:But what if God has allowed a huge obstacle to child-bearing in your life (ie. just the thought of another baby makes you queasy)? Isn’t that more like Him telling you something (ie. use your resources to not conceive)?

When you’ve got good reason, what’s wrong with NOT wanting a child?

Absolutely nothing!

 

[Bookcat]

Nope.
[SIGN1]
Therefore, those who choose NFP wrongly, although they do wrong, they do not do the same thing as those who contracept.[/SIGN1]

See source from post #498

The person in your article that you posted in that post admits:

“Note: some moral theologians would disagree with me here; they believe that NFP can be chosen with a ‘contraceptive intention’ and therefore constitute for some couples a form of contraception.”

But yes of course NFP and contraception are entirely different animals.

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.157 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:158

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality… the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.159

 

[Rence]

Because I don’t want to be Mother Hubbard. I have my 2. I am done. I would be using NFP with the contraceptive mindset which would be mortal sin. Sterilization is also mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal sin.

I don’t think that emotionally trying to badger someone into having more children on pain of sin is moral or ethical. I don’t think it’s fair to everyone invloved, including any children produced under duress. That said, I think the more people argue with you about your ‘duty’ to have more children, the more you’re going to fight against it. I know many people who swear that they won’t have more kids, and they end up having a change of heart later, especially when their situation was a little different. And, perhaps because they didn’t have an online forum to argue with about it

Using NFP for your reasons, I believe, is not sinful. I have no unearthly clue why you are not having this discussion with your family priest because there isn’t a “Master List of Acceptable Reasons to Avoid”. And if there were such a list, believe me, no one but the Pope has access to it. You’re going to do what’s best for you, no matter who likes it or not, and no matter what someone says. However, you can’t really use the *excuse * for not using NFP because it’s ‘just as bad as ABCs and sterilization’. Using NFP to avoid pregnancy, as others have quoted before me, is not a mortal sin (it may be selfish to some, not others), and certainly is not on the same scale as ABCs or sterilization.

When someone is as adamant as you to not having more children, there really is no point in badgering them that they’re wrong to decide to not have more kids because there are valid reasons. Otherwise you’d want them. If God wants you to have more kids, you’ll have them no matter what you do. We’ve seen this with NFP, ABCs, and even sterilization.

 

[LaSainte]

Yes, LaSainte, you must do it another way. Without the contraceptive mentality that is so blatant in your scenario. You have displayed an attitude in which, as Pope JPII states, “the life which could result from a sexual encounter thus becomes an enemy to be avoided at all costs, (and abortion becomes the only possible decisive response to failed contraception.)”, which is why I asked you about your position on abortion.

You reflect such a palpable hatred and fear of the possibility of another pregnancy that abortions would seem to be the only decisive response.

So because I am absolutely positive that I never want another child to the point where I would absolutely get sterilized if the Church didn’t teach against it, it necessarily follows that I would murder any possible child conceived by accident in the womb? This is where the NFP crowd loses me…

Doing everything possible to avoid CONCEPTION has NOTHING to do with someone’s willingness to murder a baby.

Now granted, many people who have abortions are probably on ABC as well, but morally the two are not connected. Those people are already pro-choice, but obviously would rather just not conceive than go around paying $500 a pop for abortions every time they get pregnant. Also, almost nobody honestly thinks that abortion is completely morally neutral, but more of an unfortunate last resort, so of course these people would rather NOT go around aborting babies.

These people are in no way related to the average pro-life person who doesn’t think there is anything wrong with contraception.

The slippery slope argument does not apply.

 

[Calliso]

So because I am absolutely positive that I never want another child to the point where I would absolutely get sterilized if the Church didn’t teach against it, it necessarily follows that I would murder any possible child conceived by accident in the womb? This is where the NFP crowd loses me…

Doing everything possible to avoid CONCEPTION has NOTHING to do with someone’s willingness to murder a baby.

Now granted, many people who have abortions are probably on ABC as well, but morally the two are not connected. Those people are already pro-choice, but obviously would rather just not conceive than go around paying $500 a pop for abortions every time they get pregnant. Also, almost nobody honestly thinks that abortion is completely morally neutral, but more of an unfortunate last resort, so of course these people would rather NOT go around aborting babies.

These people are in no way related to the average pro-life person who doesn’t think there is anything wrong with contraception.

The slippery slope argument does not apply.

Exactly and you know heck even someone who is prochoice wouldn;t necessarily go for the abortion either.

 

[PRmerger]

So because I am absolutely positive that I never want another child to the point where I would absolutely get sterilized if the Church didn’t teach against it, it necessarily follows that I would murder any possible child conceived by accident in the womb? This is where the NFP crowd loses me…

Doing everything possible to avoid CONCEPTION has NOTHING to do with someone’s willingness to murder a baby.

If you recall, LaSainte, I asked you what your position was on abortion. I assumed nothing, and only stated that it seemed to be the reasonable response to someone who was so vehemently opposed to the thought of having another baby.

Now, I hope you don’t mind if I point out that, to me, your paradigm seems a little incongruous. On the one hand, you express such a palpable fear and hatred at the thought of getting pregnant–you are so adamantine about this that you are willing to disobey the Church on this one issue, when you so clearly love Christ and His Church…

yet on the other hand, you would not abort. (And rightly so, I might add!)

So my confusion lies herein (and I’m trying to articulate it well, but I may fail): why can you not move your moral radar over a bit to the “I would not use ABC” rather than the "I would not abort.?

I get that you don’t think ABC is wrong. And that you do see abortion is wrong.

But what I’m trying to say is that it seems that your opposition to ABC is your very, very, palpable hatred of the thought of being pregnant again. Not because you think it’s moral.

So, if it’s really your fear and anxiety of being pregnant, but if you did end up pregnant you’d find a way to handle it, why can’t you just apply that to obeying the Church with regards to ABC?

 

[ddarko]

So because I am absolutely positive that I never want another child to the point where I would absolutely get sterilized if the Church didn’t teach against it, it necessarily follows that I would murder any possible child conceived by accident in the womb? This is where the NFP crowd loses me…

Ok if you are very faithful to the church, it is not that hard.

All you need to know is that the church approves NFP, has always said the Contraception is immoral and is against abortion. You as a Catholic must abide to the guidance of the Church.

Now in the mean time, you can read some texts like Love & Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla (not an easy read but explain very well the philosophy of Love and why contraception is against it), Theology of the Body (you can get many books on this, including many of by a person called Christopher West which are very accessible).

These would explain to you the REASONING behind the Church teachings. But regardless of whether you understand the reasons, or whether you feel the reasoning is incorrect, you are called to give full assent to the teachings of the Church. That is the point of being Catholic.

God Bless

 

[LaSainte]

If you recall, LaSainte, I asked you what your position was on abortion. I assumed nothing, and only stated that it seemed to be the reasonable response to someone who was so vehemently opposed to the thought of having another baby.

Now, I hope you don’t mind if I point out that, to me, your paradigm seems a little incongruous. On the one hand, you express such a palpable fear and hatred at the thought of getting pregnant–you are so adamantine about this that you are willing to disobey the Church on this one issue, when you so clearly love Christ and His Church…

yet on the other hand, you would not abort. (And rightly so, I might add!)

So my confusion lies herein (and I’m trying to articulate it well, but I may fail): why can you not move your moral radar over a bit to the “I would not use ABC” rather than the "I would not abort.?

I get that you don’t think ABC is wrong. And that you do see abortion is wrong.

But what I’m trying to say is that it seems that your opposition to ABC is your very, very, palpable hatred of the thought of being pregnant again. Not because you think it’s moral.

So, if it’s really your fear and anxiety of being pregnant, but if you did end up pregnant you’d find a way to handle it, why can’t you just apply that to obeying the Church with regards to ABC?

Actually, I DO think ABC (non-abortive) is moral. I have tried and tried to see it from the point of view of the Church. Every argument to me sounds hollow and silly, and not because I just want to see it my way. If I could actuallly come to agree with the Church on this issue, it would be a piece of cake! Like I said, I am absolutely not trying to be disobedient to Christ here, although I know that’s how most people here see it. They think that if I’m Catholic then I must believe that every single thing the Church says comes from Christ, end of story. To use ABC would be directly disobeying Jesus, and what kind of a person would do that?

The problem comes when you don’t think the teaching comes from Christ. You find yourself trying to obey the Church simply for the sake of blind obedience, which is fine when he rule is “Don’t eat meat on Fridays”, but it is a different story when the rule involves you possibly doing something you think could screw up your whole life and eveything you’ve worked for.

Even given all of that, I am willing to obey the Church after this baby is born out of sheer obedience, even with the pretty good chance that I will screw up NFP somehow and end up with another baby (which I really, really don’t want and can’t afford, on top of being almost 35 right now already). But I still do not have faith in this teaching, and if NFP fails, I really can’t see myself throwing my whole future and my children’s futures away simply out of blind obedience to a teaching in which I do not believe.

Abortion is wrong because it is the direct killing of a human being, period. Contraception just prevents a human being from being conceived, which NFP also does when used correctly. We can use buzzwords like “rejecting fertility” and “contraceptive mentality” all we want, but at the end of the day, I see absolutely no difference between the two.

 

[Little_One0307]

Actually, I DO think ABC (non-abortive) is moral.

This might be moral according to your standard, but not God’s standard which is revealed through the Church in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and The Magisterium.

What you think does not hold water, it is what the Church teaches with Divine authority. What we are going to be judged in when our soul separates from our body is not what we think, but how we conformed to God’s commands in this life.

The problem comes when you don’t think the teaching comes from Christ. You find yourself trying to obey the Church simply for the sake of blind obedience, which is fine when he rule is “Don’t eat meat on Fridays”, but it is a different story when the rule involves you possibly doing something you think could screw up your whole life and eveything you’ve worked for.

All that the Church teaches comes from Christ alone. Are you questioning Christ? It’s not a matter of obeying the Church, ultimately it comes to disobeying Christ.

The Church does not expect our blind obedience when it comes to Church Law such as the precept you quote above. That situation is moot and irrevelant to what you are saying. What the Church asks for is that we Trust and Obey God in all things and trust in His Divine Providence. Where is the faith that you have in God? Where is the child-like trust that we are called to have in God present in your life? Where is the filial obedience done out of Love for the Father? We either trust in God in all areas of our life, or we do not trust Him at all. God can be trusted, for He is TRUTH.

Even given all of that, I am willing to obey the Church after this baby is born out of sheer obedience, even with the pretty good chance that I will screw up NFP somehow and end up with another baby (which I really, really don’t want and can’t afford, on top of being almost 35 right now already). But I still do not have faith in this teaching, and if NFP fails, I really can’t see myself throwing my whole future and my children’s futures away simply out of blind obedience to a teaching in which I do not believe.

Really, if you are not obeying the Church now, how do you think you will obey the Church later if things come up? What is asked and commanded of God of you presently is that you OBEY his authority and teaching revealed through the Church. There is no fence sitting. Why not just entrust your future and your children’s future in the loving hands of God, becuase someday you will stand before him and what then will you say?

Abortion is wrong because it is the direct killing of a human being, period. Contraception just prevents a human being from being conceived, which NFP also does when used correctly. We can use buzzwords like “rejecting fertility” and “contraceptive mentality” all we want, but at the end of the day, I see absolutely no difference between the two.

Again it is not what you think on this situation, it is what the Church teaches.

Hard, hard truth. In the end it is Truth that matters, not what one thinks or does not think.

God bless.

 

[ddarko]

Actually, I DO think ABC (non-abortive) is moral. I have tried and tried to see it from the point of view of the Church. Every argument to me sounds hollow and silly, and not because I just want to see it my way. If I could actuallly come to agree with the Church on this issue, it would be a piece of cake! Like I said, I am absolutely not trying to be disobedient to Christ here, although I know that’s how most people here see it. They think that if I’m Catholic then I must believe that every single thing the Church says comes from Christ, end of story. To use ABC would be directly disobeying Jesus, and what kind of a person would do that?

Perhaps you have not thought about what it really means to be a Catholic and follow Christ.

What exactly would you say are Christ’s commands in your view? Is it what is written in Scripture? What is written in Tradition?

Also, what do you mean by the reasoning seems silly? Do you mean that you see a logical error? If so where?

The church teaching states that when a couple uses ABC, they do not give themselves completely to each other during sexual intercourse. Fertility is held back. What part do you find silly? Is it the part that

1. ABC’s hold back fertility during sexual intercourse, or
2. Couples should give themselves completely to each other during sex?

The problem comes when you don’t think the teaching comes from Christ. You find yourself trying to obey the Church simply for the sake of blind obedience, which is fine when he rule is “Don’t eat meat on Fridays”, but it is a different story when the rule involves you possibly doing something you think could screw up your whole life and eveything you’ve worked for.

So your idea of Church teaching is that it should not interfere with your personal life and everything you worked for? But thats hardly what Christ taught. What would have happened if the blessed Virgin Mary thought this way when God said she will give birth to his son?

You are suppossed to be obedient to the Church and follow its guidance on Faith and Morals. That is an essential part of accepting Christ. You can’t accept Christ and REJECT the church which he instituted to bring others to him. Faith and Morals ARE personal things that effect you personally. To say that you have a problem with the Church guiding the faithful in personal matters is a “silly” argument, no?

Even given all of that, I am willing to obey the Church after this baby is born out of sheer obedience, even with the pretty good chance that I will screw up NFP somehow and end up with another baby (which I really, really don’t want and can’t afford, on top of being almost 35 right now already). But I still do not have faith in this teaching, and if NFP fails, I really can’t see myself throwing my whole future and my children’s futures away simply out of blind obedience to a teaching in which I do not believe.

So I think this is where the problem is. You don’t yet understand what it means to be Catholic.

As a Catholic, you should know that your whole faith rests in Scripture, Tradition and the Church. If you throw away even ONE of them, you have nothing to believe and might as well be an atheist.

Furthermore, if you cannot believe that the church is guided by the Holy Spirit free of error to the end of time, then you are again missing a lot of essential Catholic understanding.

You are not a Catholic because you randomly chose one religion out of the many that are there. You are a Catholic because YOU or YOUR parents at some point reasoned through that the Catholic Church is the one to believe. We believe in the One Holy Catholic Church because of the promise of Christ to keep it free from error with respect to Faith and Morals. So for you and me to question the Church is pretty much to question Christ’s promise.

Now it is possible that you do not know where Christ promises such things and why we believe it to be the case. That is a different issue all together and would drift further away from the topic of this thread. Open a new thread or send me a PM if you want to discuss this specific issue.

Abortion is wrong because it is the direct killing of a human being, period. Contraception just prevents a human being from being conceived, which NFP also does when used correctly. We can use buzzwords like “rejecting fertility” and “contraceptive mentality” all we want, but at the end of the day, I see absolutely no difference between the two.

This shows a confusion on your part as to why NFP is moral and Contraception is not.

Contraception is INTRINSICALLY IMMORAL because it DOES NOT let the couples fully give themselves to each other during the act of sex. The fertility of each other is REJECTED.

NFP does no such thing during the sex act. The couples are fully giving themselves to each other during sex, including their fertility/infertility at the time.

That is the difference.

You are attacking a straw man by saying both practices are done to avoid children. Of course they are!!!. The church is not saying ‘NFP does not avoid children’.

The difference is that unlike NFP, contraception is intrinsically immoral in the way it prevents more births. Hence, Contraception is unacceptable.

Do you see it now? If you are still not clear, please ask.

God Bless

 

[LaSainte]

I know that you are all just trying to make me see something that seems so obvious to you, but you cannot take an objection such as “I don’t believe this teaching to come from Christ” and simply say “Everything the Church says comes from Christ, end of story”. Then all we do is go around in circles. I KNOW that you all believe this. I have a hard time with it. This is the ONLY area where I really struggle with Church teaching, and I suppose it leads back to the fact that you all have an extremely broad definition of infallibility and what the Church can define infallibly, and I see it as being much more narrow. I am not alone here and this doesn’t mean that I’m some horrible Catholic. In fact, many priests and theologians and even bishops and cardinals see this issue from my perspective. And I am not simply using my own definitions here. I am using the criteria for infallibility set by the magisterium ITSELF.

Also, no, I do not see a difference either in intent, method, or results in the morality of NFP vs. ABC. I think there is a lot of stress placed on semen and where it goes-Freud and the Church may have had more in common than is immediately evident This whole concept of “rejecting” your spouse’s fertiliy is just silly. The whole idea of not totally giving oneself to your spouse because you’re using a condom as opposed to NFP doesn’t wash for me either. Basically, it all just sounds made up to me, like they realized that the teaching wasn’t making a whole lot of sense, couldn’t change it because they wanted to maintain credibility, and came up with an argument after the fact. I’m not saying that’s what actually happened, I’m just saying that’s what it sounds like to me. They would have been much better off just saying “because we said so”, which is ultimately what it comes down to anyway.

Also, if this teaching actually IS infallible, why doesn’t the pope come out in clear and CERTAIN IRREFUTABLE terms and declare it, once and for all to be so, so that people like me (and the other 95% of Catholics) can stop worrying about it and just accept it? He won’t, because it’s not. The pope knows good and well that people have trouble with this, that people don’t believe it and that even clergy and theologians do not think it’s infallible and he could put the whole argument to rest in 5 minutes. He won’t.

 

[Little_One0307]

I know that you are all just trying to make me see something that seems so obvious to you…

No we are not trying to make you see what is obvious to us, it is Church Teaching that we are trying to make you see.

but you cannot take an objection such as “I don’t believe this teaching to come from Christ” and simply say “Everything the Church says comes from Christ, end of story”.

Sure we can. Because Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to be with the Church and guide the Church from doctrinal error of which Contraception, let’s just use the term ABC since is is one that you are using, is wrong in all citcumstances.

Then all we do is go around in circles. I KNOW that you all believe this. I have a hard time with it. This is the ONLY area where I really struggle with Church teaching,

We don’t go around in circles in doing this. Truth is Truth. I am praying and praying and praying that the Light of Faith will come and enlighten your heart and mind. Because deep down I sense a love of the Catholic Faith and of God. I will be the first to admit, that there are some teachings of the Church I struggle with, but nonetheless, I pray for myself to have the grace to obey even though when things don’t make sense. I figure that Christ has been acting through His church a lot longer than I have been around. 2000 years vs, less than 100 years.

and I suppose it leads back to the fact that you all have an extremely broad definition of infallibility and what the Church can define infallibly, and I see it as being much more narrow.

No the definition of infallibiility is what the Church teaches. I can agree that it does seem rather sweeping at times, but She, Holy Mother Church can make that assertion becuase of the authority passed down to Her by Jesus Christ, second divine person, Word made Flesh gave to her.

I

am not alone here and this doesn’t mean that I’m some horrible Catholic. In fact, many priests and theologians and even bishops and cardinals see this issue from my perspective.

Just because a great number of people hold something to be in common or true to them, does NOT change the ontological reality of a morally goor or evil act. The whole world could disagree with the Church on ABC, but that does not change the Church’s Teaching regarding ABC nor that it is morally wrong. No you are not a horrible Catholic, you are a Catholic who is struggling with a Teaching of the Church and who is debating on living contrary to the Church’s Teaching.

And I am not simply using my own definitions here. I am using the criteria for infallibility set by the magisterium ITSELF.

So what is the definition set forth by the Magisterium? Can you state it, instead of saying that you are using the criteria?

They would have been much better off just saying “because we said so”, which is ultimately what it comes down to anyway.

How about what they are actually doing? Teaching in the Authority of Christ. It’s not becuase of “that we said it is so.” It is becuase of what Christ says.

Also, if this teaching actually IS infallible, why doesn’t the pope come out in clear and CERTAIN IRREFUTABLE terms and declare it, once and for all to be so, so that people like me (and the other 95% of Catholics) can stop worrying about it and just accept it? He won’t, because it’s not. The pope knows good and well that people have trouble with this, that people don’t believe it and that even clergy and theologians do not think it’s infallible and he could put the whole argument to rest in 5 minutes. He won’t.

He does not need to come out and say that becuase it is accepted and taught as Infallible and Irrefutable. And you cannot be using the statistic 95%, it is rather misleading and very convienent for you. When you can quote sources that are reliable that say that 95% of ALL Catholics believe this, then and only then can you use this percentage.

Yes the Pope knows that people have problems with this. But time and time again this has been addressed in papal writings. And the argument is already put to rest, it’s just not accepted by you and people that have similiar objections and viewpoints to you. I know that many on this forum do not believe that ABC is right. IN fact, I would encourage you to start a poll and let’s see if the 95% holds true. In fact I am going to start one right now.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Here’s the link to that poll I was just talking about so you can vote. All who are responding to this thread are more than welcome to go vote here, in fact I would appreciate it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8096441#post8096441

God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually, I DO think ABC (non-abortive) is moral.

Yes, LaSainte. I thought I said that. Right here:

**PRmerger said:**I get that you don’t think ABC is wrong.

My point is that your opposition to the Church’s teaching is *not *because you are so invested in proclaiming that the Church is wrong about this teaching or that you are so committed to providing apologia for the morality of ABC…but that you are freaked out maximally about the thought of being pregnant again. And it is because of this place that you’re at mentally you cannot accept the Church’s teaching.

Yet, you could still be in the same place (pregnant and maniacal) and accepting of Church teaching (abortion is wrong).

So why not be accepting of Church teaching when you’re at this place mentally?

Am I articulating this clearly? (I fear not, alas…but can anyone else help me here who can dimly see what I’m trying to say but not being so eloquent about it???)

 

[LaSainte]

Here’s the link to that poll I was just talking about so you can vote. All who are responding to this thread are more than welcome to go vote here, in fact I would appreciate it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8096441#post8096441

God bless.

I fear this poll won’t be very accurate. The Catholics on this website are hardly the norm…

 

[Little_One0307]

I fear this poll won’t be very accurate. The Catholics on this website are hardly the norm…

Well it is a start. And it would be interesting. Of course what would be most helpful is to poll all Catholics everywhere to get an accurate picture, but no way to get that done, so I settled for the forum, as there are different walks of Catholics here on the forum.

God bless.