Sterilization followed by confession?

[PRmerger]

If you don’t agree with Catholic Church teaching then you should look for a new Church. Anglican/Episcopal Churches don’t have a problem with birth control.

Well, I may as well leave the church.

Looking for a new church, leaving a church because you don’t agree with its teaching is, IMHO, the exact wrong thing to do.

Trying to find a church that agrees with one’s own beliefs is creating a god in one’s own image.

Should we not, rather, conform our beliefs to that of God?

That is, when God proposes we must dispose of our own beliefs and say, “Yes, Lord!”

People who use ABC have already been condemned to hell several people on this board.

If any Catholic has proclaimed that he has special knowledge as to who is destined for hell, I say run away from him as fast as you can.

If you will note, not even Holy Mother Church has ever revealed this special knowledge as to whether an individual is condemned.

 

[LaSainte]

What is this “article”? It looks like pages scanned from a book. Who is the author, the source?

The author’s name is at the end of the article (Francis Sullivan, S.J., Boston College) and the sources he uses are in the footnotes throughout.

 

[Corki]

The author’s name is at the end of the article (Francis Sullivan, S.J., Boston College) and the sources he uses are in the footnotes throughout.

What is his qualification to speak for the magisterium? If he is not a Bishop (or the Pope), he is not a part of the magesterium and has no more authority than you or I in determining what is infallible. In fact, on that last page, he says “I conclude…” indicating that this is his own analysis or opinion.

The citation isn’t listed but it appears to be from a magazine called Theological Studies: “Theological Studies is a quarterly journal of theology, published under the auspices of the Jesuits in the USA.” Why would we put more confidence in a magazine than in the magesterium itself?

 

[LaSainte]

LaSainte,

If you don’t mind me asking, why did you start this thread? To discuss a hypothetical situation, or are you yourself considering sterilization?

Often, I find those who disagree with the Church’s teaching on ABC do so because there are deeper reasons driving them. Perhaps if you would be willing to share some of your personal story, we could help you understand the Holy Spirit’s message better. If you are not comfortable sharing publicly, you are also free to PM me.

Thank you so much for such an inquisitive and compassionate response . I would be happy to share my struggle with his teaching.

I am 34, pregnant with baby #2. Baby # 1 turns 2 this month. I was apparently very poorly catechized, so I never really had a chance to “grow up” knowing these teachings. I basically found out how “bad” contraception is supposed to be a few years ago, and only when my son was born did I start to really adhere to my faith in a serious way.

I also just found out that there is more to infallibility than papal infallibility. So basically it was just sort of dumped on me that everything I have ever planned and wanted for my life (my degree, my goals, the way I have always wanted to raise my family) might as well be thrown in the toilet because now I’m just relegated to being “open” to having more kids than I can afford, more kids than I ever wanted, to giving up everything I have r dreamed of to possibly ending up a mother of 6 crying myself to sleep every night wondering what the heck happened to my life.

I do NOT NOT NOT want more than 2 kids. The only kid I like (and of course, my world revolves around him) is the one I have. I still haven’t even bonded yet with the one in my belly and I’m 30 weeks preggo. I am NOT a fan of kids or babies. They **** me off. I don’t even like my own nieces and nephews if I’m being totally honest. If I had more than 2 or 3, I wouldn’t even want to get out of bed in the morning. I have studied in my field for nearly 20 years and the things I want to do with it are things I am very passionate about. Having 5 or 6 kids would literally ruin my life. Sorry if that sounds awful, but I know myself.

Add to that the fact that I have tried so hard to believe that God actually doesn’t want us using ABC to the point of it being a mortal sin to no avail. No matter what I read about infallibility or about the unitive and procreative nature of marital sex, no matter how I pray to God for clarity and assurance, I JUST don’t believe that ABC is a sin. I don’t. I think God wants us to be the best parents we can be to the kids we have, to the kids we want, and I believe that He also wants us to follow our OWN dreams and fulfill our own passions, not just throw our whole lives in the trash and live in misery because we can’t stop having kids we don’t want.

So basically, I am in a position of feeling like I have to go AGAINST everything I feel to be true, go AGAINST everything I have ever wanted for my life, go AGAINST what I know to be best for my own mental health and my family, to follow a teaching I think is complete bunk.

People talk about it like I’m throwing what God wants for me in the garbage. It’s the opposite. I honestly and truly do not believe that God is against ABC. I think the Church has WAY overstepped God’s mandate on this issue. If I could talk to God face to face (not he Church, but God Himself) I believe I would hear a totally different story from Him, and if God Himself actually told me not to contracept, I wouldn’t even THINK about it. I would obey in a heartbeat. The problem is, I cannot throw my life away over a Church teaching that I don’t KNOW or at least strongly BELIEVE comes from God. And I cannot for the life of me, no matter how hard I TRY, believe in this teaching.

I know that was excruciatingly long. Thanks for reading

 

[LaSainte]

What is his qualification to speak for the magisterium? If he is not a Bishop (or the Pope), he is not a part of the magesterium and has no more authority than you or I in determining what is infallible. In fact, on that last page, he says “I conclude…” indicating that this is his own analysis or opinion.

The citation isn’t listed but it appears to be from a magazine called Theological Studies: “Theological Studies is a quarterly journal of theology, published under the auspices of the Jesuits in the USA.” Why would we put more confidence in a magazine than in the magesterium itself?

The MAGISTERIUM ITSELF hasn’t declared this teaching infallible nobody has. It is all up to he speculation of theologians who use the very definitions set BY the magisterium itself to debate the issue. The magisterium has given us the requirements for infallible teachings and defined those requirements, but has never defined this teaching in particular as being infallible. All we can do is research the requirements for infallible teachings and try to determine whether or not his teaching falls within those bounds. There has never been an agreement by theologians, priests or bishops as to whether or not it is an infallible teaching. In fact, most believe that it is NOT.

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you so much for such an inquisitive and compassionate response . I would be happy to share my struggle with his teaching.

I am 34, pregnant with baby #2. Baby # 1 turns 2 this month. I was apparently very poorly catechized, so I never really had a chance to “grow up” knowing these teachings. I basically found out how “bad” contraception is supposed to be a few years ago, and only when my son was born did I start to really adhere to my faith in a serious way.

I also just found out that there is more to infallibility than papal infallibility. So basically it was just sort of dumped on me that everything I have ever planned and wanted for my life (my degree, my goals, the way I have always wanted to raise my family) might as well be thrown in the toilet because now I’m just relegated to being “open” to having more kids than I can afford, more kids than I ever wanted, to giving up everything I have r dreamed of to possibly ending up a mother of 6 crying myself to sleep every night wondering what the heck happened to my life.

I do NOT NOT NOT want more than 2 kids. The only kid I like (and of course, my world revolves around him) is the one I have. I still haven’t even bonded yet with the one in my belly and I’m 30 weeks preggo. I am NOT a fan of kids or babies. They **** me off. I don’t even like my own nieces and nephews if I’m being totally honest. If I had more than 2 or 3, I wouldn’t even want to get out of bed in the morning. I have studied in my field for nearly 20 years and the things I want to do with it are things I am very passionate about. Having 5 or 6 kids would literally ruin my life. Sorry if that sounds awful, but I know myself.

Add to that the fact that I have tried so hard to believe that God actually doesn’t want us using ABC to the point of it being a mortal sin to no avail. No matter what I read about infallibility or about the unitive and procreative nature of marital sex, no matter how I pray to God for clarity and assurance, I JUST don’t believe that ABC is a sin. I don’t. I think God wants us to be the best parents we can be to the kids we have, to the kids we want, and I believe that He also wants us to follow our OWN dreams and fulfill our own passions, not just throw our whole lives in the trash and live in misery because we can’t stop having kids we don’t want.

So basically, I am in a position of feeling like I have to go AGAINST everything I feel to be true, go AGAINST everything I have ever wanted for my life, go AGAINST what I know to be best for my own mental health and my family, to follow a teaching I think is complete bunk.

People talk about it like I’m throwing what God wants for me in the garbage. It’s the opposite. I honestly and truly do not believe that God is against ABC. I think the Church has WAY overstepped God’s mandate on this issue. If I could talk to God face to face (not he Church, but God Himself) I believe I would hear a totally different story from Him, and if God Himself actually told me not to contracept, I wouldn’t even THINK about it. I would obey in a heartbeat. The problem is, I cannot throw my life away over a Church teaching that I don’t KNOW or at least strongly BELIEVE comes from God. And I cannot for the life of me, no matter how hard I TRY, believe in this teaching.

I know that was excruciatingly long. Thanks for reading

LaSainte, I thank you for your heartfelt response, and I can sympathize.

The bolded section in your post caught me. I often wonder, when people say things like this about God–“God wouldn’t _____” or “God doesn’t care if I ________” how they know this.

IOW, the only way anyone knows that God is a God of Love and Forgiveness is because the Church told them this.

That is, all of the qualities about God that make you want to know Him and love Him come from the Church.

Does that make you think differently about what the Church has to say about contraception?

 

[PRmerger]

The MAGISTERIUM ITSELF hasn’t declared this teaching infallible nobody has. It is all up to he speculation of theologians who use the very definitions set BY the magisterium itself to debate the issue. The magisterium has given us the requirements for infallible teachings and defined those requirements, but has never defined this teaching in particular as being infallible. All we can do is research the requirements for infallible teachings and try to determine whether or not his teaching falls within those bounds. There has never been an agreement by theologians, priests or bishops as to whether or not it is an infallible teaching. In fact, most believe that it is NOT.

Whether it’s been infallibly taught or not is really irrelevant, LaSainte.

Asking, “Is it taught infallibly” is the exact wrong question for any lover of Christ to ask.

As apologist Mark Shea writes:

No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then “How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ.

 

[Bookcat]

It is not as clear as you would like to believe. Here is a very well-written and researched article about infallibility itself, how it relates to contraception and how there is absolutely no agreement by theologians etc. as to whether or not the teaching on contraception a.) CAN be infallibly taught

From the Vademecum for confessors

“The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life”

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_12021997_vademecum_en.html

But even it it was not irreformable and definitive…it is still the Teaching of the Church…

and even a the “lower end” of things like this…the Catholic is to give religious assent of intellect and of will.… it is not an open question…

 

[LaSainte]

LaSainte, I thank you for your heartfelt response, and I can sympathize.

The bolded section in your post caught me. I often wonder, when people say things like this about God–“God wouldn’t _____” or “God doesn’t care if I ________” how they know this.

IOW, the only way anyone knows that God is a God of Love and Forgiveness is because the Church told them this.

That is, all of the qualities about God that make you want to know Him and love Him come from the Church.

Does that make you think differently about what the Church has to say about contraception?

I see what you’re saying, but ALL churches believe this about God, even the Muslims. I know this carries no weight with Catholics who don’t struggle with any of he church’s teachings, but I do believe that some things about God are knowable by us as individuals. I also believe that some cases are individual. If the Church even allowed for SOME exceptions, no matter how rare, I think I could believe in this teaching. But I absolutely CANNOT get past he Church telling a mother of 6 that they would rather see her dead than contracepting, or telling a starving mother in Africa that they would rather see her child die of starvation in her arms than to have her use a condom. It doesn’t make logical sense. It doesn’t make spiritual sense. Everything I have ever been taught (yes, by he Church) or read in the Bible (yes, the Bible compiled by the Church) about God and Jesus SCREAMS the very opposite of this, and I cannot, cannot, cannot get past it.

And I know very well that the afterlife is what is truly important, but the here and now matters too, and I don’t think God wants babies to be born just to suffer and die, and I don’t think He wants mothers killing themselves to have more babies when hey could easily prevent it and be stewards to the family they already have.

I think the “evil” of ABC has been so overblown that it’s almost sick to think about what we are expectedto do to avoid it.

 

[LaSainte]

Whether it’s been infallibly taught or not is really irrelevant, LaSainte.

Asking, “Is it taught infallibly” is the exact wrong question for any lover of Christ to ask.

As apologist Mark Shea writes:

No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then “How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ.

This is true. I just long for the day when the Church relaxes the rules just a bit on ABC, even if not for people like myself, for the people like those I mentioned above. It would do WONDERS for my faith.

Thank you for your kindness and thoughtfulness. I’m really nottrying to be an obstinate heretic here. I have struggled so much with his and it hurts my faith like you can’t imagine

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I see what you’re saying, but ALL churches believe this about God, even the Muslims. I know this carries no weight with Catholics who don’t struggle with any of he church’s teachings, but I do believe that some hints about God are knowable by us as individuals. I also believe that some things are individual. If the Church even allowed for SOME Exceptions, no matter how rare, I think I could believe in this teaching. But I absolutely CANNOT get past he Church telling a mother of 6 that they would rather see her dead than contracepting, or telling a starving mother in Africa that they would rather see her child die of starvation in her arms than to have her use a condom. It first make logical sense. It doesn’t make spiritual sense. Everything I have ever been taught (yes, by he Church) or read in the Bible (yes, the Bible compiled by the Church) about God and Jesus SCREAMS the very opposite of this, and I cannot, cannot, cannot get past it.

Does the Church teach that? There are many Catholic missionaries, like my own doctor that volunteer medical help in Africa. Shouldn’t we work on ending starvation, as opposed to giving out condoms, that does nothing to help starvation and illness? Don’t missionaries do just that? A nun came to my parish who has been working in Africa for decades.

I once saw a documentary that featured prostitutes in India beign encouraged to use condoms.

They would sell themselves for the equivalent of 1 dollar. Why not get to the root of why a woman would sell herself for a dollar, and give her the tools to not have to live that life?

Condom use doesn’t help her at all. She’s still a prostitute. For 1 dollar. How is that human dignity?

 

[PRmerger]

I see what you’re saying, but ALL churches believe this about God, even the Muslims.

Can you cite something that says that Islam declares God to be a God of love?

At any rate, it doesn’t matter. For are you really saying that you know things about God that the Church didn’t teach you about Him? If so, what? And how do you know this–from private revelation?

I know this carries no weight with Catholics who don’t struggle with any of he church’s teachings,

Oh, believe me, I have struggled with this teaching. If you look at my most early posts, they were all about questioning this teaching.

However, I don’t believe that I should have a church that conforms to my beliefs, but that I should conform my beliefs to the Church. Otherwise, I am creating a god/church in my own image, eh?

But I absolutely CANNOT get past he Church telling a mother of 6 that they would rather see her dead than contracepting,

You are creating a false dichotomy, LaSainte. There are not only 2 choices here: contracept or die.

or telling a starving mother in Africa that they would rather see her child die of starvation in her arms than to have her use a condom.

With all due respect (and I argued your point here on the CAFs in my earliest days as well, until someone said this to me, and it made me go ) It’s easy to tell poor, black, native people, “Go ahead and use a condom if you have AIDS”, but we all know we wouldn’t allow any of our children to have sex with someone who has AIDS, even if he were going to use a condom, for we would never risk the lives of our loved ones with something so unsafe as a condom barrier between life and death. But it’s ok to risk the lives of others?? Is it because they’re poor and black?

 

[DanteAlighieri]

If a person disagrees fundamentally with Church teaching on contraception, to the point where after YEARS of prayer and study, honestly believes the Church to be in error on this, believes that God does not have a problem with contraception, etc., and decides to become sterilized, what happens?

If this person decided to get sterilized and then confess to the priest that although they are sorry to have gone against the Church, they do not believe that what they did was a grave sin and are happy with the outcome, and also confesses the sin of presumption (since they intended to be sterilized and confess it all along), would they be able to be absolved and start receiving communion again?

This is not a debate about contraception.

Forgive me if this has already been stated:

If a person knowingly and willingly commits an act in direct contravention of the Church’s moral teaching and is not sorry for it, he or she cannot be absolved – whether or not he or she personally believes it is a sin to commit that act.

Peace,
Dante

 

[LaSainte]

Can you cite something that says that Islam declares God to be a God of love?

At any rate, it doesn’t matter. For are you really saying that you know things about God that the Church didn’t teach you about Him? If so, what? And how do you know this–from private revelation?

Oh, believe me, I have struggled with this teaching. If you look at my most early posts, they were all about questioning this teaching.

However, I don’t believe that I should have a church that conforms to my beliefs, but that I should conform my beliefs to the Church. Otherwise, I am creating a god/church in my own image, eh?

You are creating a false dichotomy, LaSainte. There are not only 2 choices here: contracept or die.

With all due respect (and I argued your point here on the CAFs in my earliest days as well, until someone said this to me, and it made me go ) It’s easy to tell poor, black, native people, “Go ahead and use a condom if you have AIDS”, but we all know we wouldn’t allow any of our children to have sex with someone who has AIDS, even if he were going to use a condom, for we would never risk the lives of our loved ones with something so unsafe as a condom barrier between life and death. But it’s ok to risk the lives of others?? Is it because they’re poor and black?

Honestly, if it were my daughter, I would tell her she’s an idiot if she has sex with anyone who has AIDS, but given her free will, I would also make sure she knew about condoms just in case she felt like rolling the dice. I want her to be safe, not dead.

And if my daughter had 5 kids and would die if she had another one? Darn right I’d tell her to get her tubes tied. Then I’d tell her husband to get a vasectomy.

 

[LaSainte]

Does the Church teach that? There are many Catholic missionaries, like my own doctor that volunteer medical help in Africa. Shouldn’t we work on ending starvation, as opposed to giving out condoms, that does nothing to help starvation and illness? Don’t missionaries do just that? A nun came to my parish who has been working in Africa for decades.

I once saw a documentary that featured prostitutes in India beign encouraged to use condoms.

They would sell themselves for the equivalent of 1 dollar. Why not get to the root of why a woman would sell herself for a dollar, and give her the tools to not have to live that life?

Condom use doesn’t help her at all. She’s still a prostitute. For 1 dollar. How is that human dignity?

I don’t believe injust handing out condoms, but I do believe that just teaching Abstinence forever doesn’t really help anyone in the sex trade, at least not now. You are talking about the need for a complete change in consciousness, a total moral shift that would take decades If not more to accomplish.
How does that help a 10 year old prostitute today?

 

[PRmerger]

Honestly, if it were my daughter, I would tell her she’s an idiot if she has sex with anyone who has AIDS, but given her free will, I would also make sure she knew about condoms just in case she felt like rolling the dice. I want her to be safe, not dead.

And if my daughter had 5 kids and would die if she had another one? Darn right I’d tell her to get her tubes tied. Then I’d tell her husband to get a vasectomy.

'kay.

Could you cite something that says that the Koran claims God is a god of love?

 

[PRmerger]

Honestly, if it were my daughter, I would tell her she’s an idiot if she has sex with anyone who has AIDS, but given her free will, I would also make sure she knew about condoms just in case she felt like rolling the dice. I want her to be safe, not dead.

And if my daughter had 5 kids and would die if she had another one? Darn right I’d tell her to get her tubes tied. Then I’d tell her husband to get a vasectomy.

Just wondering, LaSainte, if your daughter were 200 lbs and would die if she continued to eat unhealthily, would you tell her to just eat what she wanted and then just throw it up?Would you promote the idea that it’s better for her to be bulimic than dead?

 

[Little_One0307]

Well, I may as well leave the church. People who use ABC have already been condemned to hell several people on this board.

It’s not a matter of being condemned or not, it’s a matter of going against the Teaching of the Catholic Church. She is very clear as I have quoted in past threads. No one condemns or judges that is up to Jesus alone, but if we chose to live contrary to Moral Law, then we condemn ourselves by our choosing to live in obstinacy.

No one said that it would be easy, being Catholic is perhaps one of the hardest things to do, I should say being a Catholic who is Faithful to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and seeks to follow it.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

From the Vademecum for confessors

“The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life”

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_12021997_vademecum_en.html

But even it it was not irreformable and definitive…it is still the Teaching of the Church…

and even a the “lower end” of things like this…the Catholic is to give religious assent of intellect and of will.… it is not an open question…

Thanks for posting this, I was going to post it a few minutes ago but wanted to read through the thread.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

I see what you’re saying, but ALL churches believe this about God, even the Muslims. I know this carries no weight with Catholics who don’t struggle with any of he church’s teachings, but I do believe that some things about God are knowable by us as individuals. I also believe that some cases are individual. If the Church even allowed for SOME exceptions, no matter how rare, I think I could believe in this teaching. But I absolutely CANNOT get past he Church telling a mother of 6 that they would rather see her dead than contracepting, or telling a starving mother in Africa that they would rather see her child die of starvation in her arms than to have her use a condom. It doesn’t make logical sense. It doesn’t make spiritual sense. Everything I have ever been taught (yes, by he Church) or read in the Bible (yes, the Bible compiled by the Church) about God and Jesus SCREAMS the very opposite of this, and I cannot, cannot, cannot get past it.

And I know very well that the afterlife is what is truly important, but the here and now matters too, and I don’t think God wants babies to be born just to suffer and die, and I don’t think He wants mothers killing themselves to have more babies when hey could easily prevent it and be stewards to the family they already have.

I think the “evil” of ABC has been so overblown that it’s almost sick to think about what we are expectedto do to avoid it.

Nothing ever, ever, ever, EVER justifies or makes an inherently morally evil act wrong. The Church has condemned contraception through its history. Nothing going on in the world will make it right. There can be NO exception to things such as this nature, becuase the Church does not err doctrinally. As other have pointed out time and time again, Humane Vitae and the teaching of the Church regarding Contraception are to be held and practiced by Faithful Catholic.

I know that this may sound harsh, but I would venture to say you do not have the entire picture, no one does, only God does. And God works through His Church. God alllows or permits evil for two reasons, 1. becuase of free will and 2. To bring a greater good out of it. To come to sense of the things you listed above, one must be able to look at it through the lens of eternity. Unfortunately, we finite beings cannot do that. We must trust God and put our Faith in Him and what he Has revealed through Church either by Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, or the Sacred Magisterium. It is only by remaing humble and submitting in faith to the Church’s Teachings even when we do not understand, can we have peace.

I have read your situation and I do empathize and you are in my prayers.

God bless.