Sterilization followed by confession?

[sw85]

Thank you so much for such an inquisitive and compassionate response . I would be happy to share my struggle with his teaching.

I am 34, pregnant with baby #2. Baby # 1 turns 2 this month. I was apparently very poorly catechized, so I never really had a chance to “grow up” knowing these teachings. I basically found out how “bad” contraception is supposed to be a few years ago, and only when my son was born did I start to really adhere to my faith in a serious way.

I also just found out that there is more to infallibility than papal infallibility. So basically it was just sort of dumped on me that everything I have ever planned and wanted for my life (my degree, my goals, the way I have always wanted to raise my family) might as well be thrown in the toilet because now I’m just relegated to being “open” to having more kids than I can afford, more kids than I ever wanted, to giving up everything I have r dreamed of to possibly ending up a mother of 6 crying myself to sleep every night wondering what the heck happened to my life.

I do NOT NOT NOT want more than 2 kids. The only kid I like (and of course, my world revolves around him) is the one I have. I still haven’t even bonded yet with the one in my belly and I’m 30 weeks preggo. I am NOT a fan of kids or babies. They **** me off. I don’t even like my own nieces and nephews if I’m being totally honest. If I had more than 2 or 3, I wouldn’t even want to get out of bed in the morning. I have studied in my field for nearly 20 years and the things I want to do with it are things I am very passionate about. Having 5 or 6 kids would literally ruin my life. Sorry if that sounds awful, but I know myself.

Add to that the fact that I have tried so hard to believe that God actually doesn’t want us using ABC to the point of it being a mortal sin to no avail. No matter what I read about infallibility or about the unitive and procreative nature of marital sex, no matter how I pray to God for clarity and assurance, I JUST don’t believe that ABC is a sin. I don’t. I think God wants us to be the best parents we can be to the kids we have, to the kids we want, and I believe that He also wants us to follow our OWN dreams and fulfill our own passions, not just throw our whole lives in the trash and live in misery because we can’t stop having kids we don’t want.

So basically, I am in a position of feeling like I have to go AGAINST everything I feel to be true, go AGAINST everything I have ever wanted for my life, go AGAINST what I know to be best for my own mental health and my family, to follow a teaching I think is complete bunk.

I am sorry to hear of your distress. I will hope and pray for resolution for you.

As a recent convert the Catholic faith (I begin RCIA soon), I had a hard time making sense of some of its teachings, too. What ultimately reconciled me to the Church was philosophy: the classical essentialism of Plato and Aristotle and the natural law scholasticism of Thomas Aquinas. It is from this tradition that all of our understanding of morality, including sexuality (and contraception) derives; and it is, I think, a very compelling and rational case. I will be happy to share some of this with you by PM if you’re interested in learning more.

I can understand the distress attendant on the prospect of being asked to give up on your dreams. But we are called to do nothing less than to kill all of our worldly desires for God’s sake; to mimic Christ’s sacrifice out of love. I’m reminded of Peter Kreeft, in How to Win the Culture War, who wrote:

*T.S. Eliot defines the Christian life as: “A condition of complete simplicity/Costing not less than/Everything.” The price is everything: 100%. A worse martyrdom than the quick noose or stake: the martyrdom of dying daily, dying to all your desires and plans, including your plans about how to become a saint. A blank check to God. Complete submission, “islam,” “fiat” – Mary’s thing. Look what that simple Mary-thing did 2000 years ago: It brought God down and saved the world.

It was meant to continue.*
Speaking personally, I cannot imagine God endorsing birth control simply because I cannot imagine God caring for our sexual satisfaction. If it seems to you that the possibility of having another child would be a catastrophe, perhaps it is the case that you are called to a life of chastity.

But I think it is more likely that you are called to reexamine your priorities. What I hear you saying is that you refuse to give up your marital sex life (which appears to be a source of joy for you) and you refuse to give up on your worldly dreams, and that you view natural law and Church teachings as preferentially more expendable than either of those two. I hope you will pardon me for believing this is a profoundly self-centered way to think, and a dangerous habit of thought to be cultivating. God, I think, does not care for your worldly desires; to the extent that they are obstacles to more perfectly knowing and loving Him, I think it is more likely that He would rather you abandon them.

It profits a man nothing to give up his soul for the world. (But for a college degree?)

 

[murphjos]

I am sorry to hear of your distress. I will hope and pray for resolution for you.

As a recent convert the Catholic faith (I begin RCIA soon), I had a hard time making sense of some of its teachings, too. What ultimately reconciled me to the Church was philosophy: the classical essentialism of Plato and Aristotle and the natural law scholasticism of Thomas Aquinas. It is from this tradition that all of our understanding of morality, including sexuality (and contraception) derives; and it is, I think, a very compelling and rational case. I will be happy to share some of this with you by PM if you’re interested in learning more.

I can understand the distress attendant on the prospect of being asked to give up on your dreams. But we are called to do nothing less than to kill all of our worldly desires for God’s sake; to mimic Christ’s sacrifice out of love. I’m reminded of Peter Kreeft, in How to Win the Culture War, who wrote:

*T.S. Eliot defines the Christian life as: “A condition of complete simplicity/Costing not less than/Everything.” The price is everything: 100%. A worse martyrdom than the quick noose or stake: the martyrdom of dying daily, dying to all your desires and plans, including your plans about how to become a saint. A blank check to God. Complete submission, “islam,” “fiat” – Mary’s thing. Look what that simple Mary-thing did 2000 years ago: It brought God down and saved the world.

It was meant to continue.*
Speaking personally, I cannot imagine God endorsing birth control simply because I cannot imagine God caring for our sexual satisfaction. If it seems to you that the possibility of having another child would be a catastrophe, perhaps it is the case that you are called to a life of chastity.

But I think it is more likely that you are called to reexamine your priorities. What I hear you saying is that you refuse to give up your marital sex life (which appears to be a source of joy for you) and you refuse to give up on your worldly dreams, and that you view natural law and Church teachings as preferentially more expendable than either of those two. I hope you will pardon me for believing this is a profoundly self-centered way to think, and a dangerous habit of thought to be cultivating. God, I think, does not care for your worldly desires; to the extent that they are obstacles to more perfectly knowing and loving Him, I think it is more likely that He would rather you abandon them.

It profits a man nothing to give up his soul for the world. (But for a college degree?)

Well put. If I were not a lazy lurker who just reads these threads and rarely comments I would have written something along these lines.

 

[murphjos]

I think that a person in those circumstances should decide to abstain from sex for the rest of his life or at least until the sterilization is reversed. I believe that is the best solution even if it isn’t absolutely a requirement.

The problem isn’t that you can’t be forgiven; the problem is that you are still benefiting from your sin. You couldn’t go out and set up a system that stole a million dollars every year and then simply go to confession and keep your ill gotten gains and the system in place. If you can you have to return the money and repair things.

I don’t think it is possible to benefit from sin. We often enjoy it but it cannot be a benefit. The idea that ABC is a great benefit is so ingrained in our culture that even those defending the Church’s prohibition against it are selling it’s benefits. That is some powerful marketing. (KostyaJMJ, this is more about your wording than your sentiment… No offence.)

As for the specific hypothetical individual… She could begin using NFP and abstain while showing fertile signs. This would remove the “free sex” aspect and the periodic abstinence would be a physical sign of her contrition. This would also lessen the possibility of an ectopic pregnancy that can occur after tubal ligation. When tubals fail the resulting pregnancies are often ectopic and this introduces an innocent victim to the moral argument. A life threatening pregnancy might also put someone already struggling with the Churches moral authority in another dilemma.

 

[sw85]

I don’t think it is possible to benefit from sin. We often enjoy it but it cannot be a benefit. The idea that ABC is a great benefit is so ingrained in our culture that even those defending the Church’s prohibition against it are selling it’s benefits. That is some powerful marketing. (KostyaJMJ, this is more about your wording than your sentiment… No offence.)

As for the specific hypothetical individual… She could begin using NFP and abstain while showing fertile signs. This would remove the “free sex” aspect and the periodic abstinence would be a physical sign of her contrition. This would also lessen the possibility of an ectopic pregnancy that can occur after tubal ligation. When tubals fail the resulting pregnancies are often ectopic and this introduces an innocent victim to the moral argument. A life threatening pregnancy might also put someone already struggling with the Churches moral authority in another dilemma.

This is true – the only objective measure for what benefits us as human beings is what enables us to more fully instantiate the essence of a human being. Contraception subverts the procreative function of the human sexual configuration.

It may, as you say, increase an individual’s happiness – but it will do so at the expense of his fulfillment of his essence, which is the only true good and therefore, ultimately, the only true happiness in the world.

 

[LaSainte]

'kay.

Could you cite something that says that the Koran claims God is a god of love?

“Say, if ye love Allah, follow me. Allah will love you and forgive you your sins.” Surah 3:31

“And He is forgiving, the Loving.” Qu’aran 85:14

 

[PRmerger]

If it seems to you that the possibility of having another child would be a catastrophe, perhaps it is the case that you are called to a life of chastity.

Small quibble here: I think you meant “celibacy”, not “chastity”.

All of us–married and not–are called to a life of “chastity”. Even when we engage in the marital act we must do it chastely. Chastity is nothing more than living out one’s sexuality in the manner that God designed. And, again, all of us must do this.

 

[LaSainte]

Just wondering, LaSainte, if your daughter were 200 lbs and would die if she continued to eat unhealthily, would you tell her to just eat what she wanted and then just throw it up?Would you promote the idea that it’s better for her to be bulimic than dead?

I never understood the bulimia/ABC analogy. Makes no sense.

 

[PRmerger]

“Say, if ye love Allah, follow me. Allah will love you and forgive you your sins.” Surah 3:31

“And He is forgiving, the Loving.” Qu’aran 85:14

'kay. Very good.

 

[LaSainte]

Thanks for posting this, I was going to post it a few minutes ago but wanted to read through the thread.

God

This is just a guide for confessors, right? Not an infallible document.

 

[joclucsylv]

Just wondering, LaSainte, if your daughter were 200 lbs and would die if she continued to eat unhealthily, would you tell her to just eat what she wanted and then just throw it up?Would you promote the idea that it’s better for her to be bulimic than dead?

Just wondering PRmerger…I see that you have 4 children. Yes, you are raising them up in the faith just as I am raising mine. I have 2 beautiful girls and I am raising them as best as I can to respect their bodies and to save themselves for their husbands. However, let’s face it. In today’s world the chances of them being chaste until marriage is low. We can raise them up as best as we can, but we can’t be there 24 hours a day to make their decisions when they are 18 years old, and God forbid 14 or 16. None of us on this board can say that my child would NEVER have sex at 16. That would be fooling ourselves. Maybe some will and I sure pray it’s my little girls, but I also live in the real world and not La La land and realize chances are low.

That said, your 16,17 or 18 or 19 year old daughter has a boyfriend and no matter how much you counsel against sex before marriage and told her that it was mortal sin and that she was condemning herself to hell, she has told you that she loves her bf and will be physical with him anyway. Would you sit there and tell your daughter that she needs to watch her cycle and use NFP??? I surely wouldn’t.

There is La La land and there is the real world. I live in the real world. I understand that there is Church teaching and the people on this board are there to set people like me straight. However, it bugs me that people can sit there and throw the Catechism and act holier than thou and say it’s this way or the highway. There are SO many grey areas in life. Quoting the Catechism is one thing. Living in real life situations is another.

 

[sw85]

Small quibble here: I think you meant “celibacy”, not “chastity”.

All of us–married and not–are called to a life of “chastity”. Even when we engage in the marital act we must do it chastely. Chastity is nothing more than living out one’s sexuality in the manner that God designed. And, again, all of us must do this.

You are correct, thank you.

It would have been more appropriate to say that she is perhaps called to a life of celibacy.

 

[PRmerger]

I never users old the bulimia/ABC analogy. Makes no sense.

Fair enough.

But would you encourage your 200 lb bulimic daughter to continue those bulimic behaviors, 'cause it’s better that she’s doing that than dying?

 

[murphjos]

There is La La land and there is the real world. I live in the real world. I understand that there is Church teaching and the people on this board are there to set people like me straight. However, it bugs me that people can sit there and throw the Catechism and act holier than thou and say it’s this way or the highway. There are SO many grey areas in life. Quoting the Catechism is one thing. Living in real life situations is another.

When moral choices are black and white even a person with a fairly unformed conscience can discern the proper action. The grey areas are what we need the Church for. If we abandon her moral teaching every time it is challenged by secular society we might just as well lie down and give up. The CCC is not a novel about La La land it is a guide for navigating the real world.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

You are correct, thank you.

It would have been more appropriate to say that she is perhaps called to a life of celibacy.

An even smaller quibble here: celibacy refers to the state of being unmarried. If you’re marriage you aren’t called to a life of celibacy while your spouse is alive.

It would be more accurate to say she is perhaps called to practice perfect continence.

 

[sw85]

An even smaller quibble here: celibacy refers to the state of being unmarried. If you’re marriage you aren’t called to a life of celibacy while your spouse is alive.

It would be more accurate to say she is perhaps called to practice perfect continence.

Please forgive my ignorance. I am new to the faith and still trying to acquire all the terms as they’re used by the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

It would be more accurate to say she is perhaps called to practice perfect continence.

Yes, that’s even better.

 

[PRmerger]

That said, your 16,17 or 18 or 19 year old daughter has a boyfriend and no matter how much you counsel against sex before marriage and told her that it was mortal sin and that she was condemning herself to hell, she has told you that she loves her bf and will be physical with him anyway. **Would you sit there and tell your daughter that she needs to watch her cycle and use NFP??? **I surely wouldn’t.

Absolutely I wouldn’t!

No more than if my daughter insisted on drinking poison would I say, “Well, if you insist on doing it, here’s an antidote: coat your stomach with milk of magnesia before you do it 'kay?”

There is La La land and there is the real world. I live in the real world. I understand that there is Church teaching and the people on this board are there to set people like me straight. However, it bugs me that people can sit there and throw the Catechism and act holier than thou and say it’s this way or the highway. There are SO many grey areas in life. Quoting the Catechism is one thing. Living in real life situations is another.

Well, jocluc, what is the Catechism for if not for living in real life?

 

[LaSainte]

Fair enough.

But would you encourage your 200 lb bulimic daughter to continue those bulimic behaviors, 'cause it’s better that she’s doing that than dying?

Well, bulimia will kill you and can be addictive, so no. But if she refused to eat better I might consider gastric bypass or lap band surgery. I would do whatever it took to save her life.

 

[LaSainte]

Absolutely I wouldn’t!

No more than if my daughter insisted on drinking poison would I say, “Well, if you insist on doing it, here’s an antidote: coat your stomach with milk of magnesia before you do it 'kay?”

Well, jocluc, what is the Catechism for if not for living in real life?

I would say that the Catecism is the ideal, and that you can’t always trust that someone, especially a child, will always perform to the ideal standards. That’s like insisting that they only get straight "A"s in school, and only giving them an application to Harvard University. If they happen to fall short of your standards, you have further crippled them by only giving them an application to a school they will never get into, insuring that they will end up with NO college education at all. We shoot for the ideal, but we have to have contingency plans.

 

[Bookcat]

I would say that the Catecism is the ideal, and that you can’t always trust that someone, especially a child, will always perform to the ideal standards.

Actually not. It is not an ideal not to murder…it is not an ideal to go to Mass every Sunday and Holy Day…it is not an ideal to profess the Catholic Faith…to believe in Jesus Christ… it is not an ideal to love God and love ones neighbor…it not an ideal to live what is in the Catechism. It is the way of life. Yes one may sin at times…and there in the Catechism we find words directing us and informing us of the life of prayer and sacraments (confession! with repentance) to restore and sustain one…

The Catechism is a “sure norm” as Bl. John Paul II called it…

Now are there things there that describe degrees of Christian life that are not yet lived by all…yes of course…like the heights of prayer…but rejection of contraception and sterilization is not one of them…such is normative for all.