Sterilization followed by confession?

[LaSainte]

I’m going to give you guys a sort of analogy. Please keep on mind that I am not comparing NFP to this situation EXACTLY. What I am mainly comparing is the depth and scope of the feelings I have about the Church’s teaching on NFP. Maybe then you will understand why saying “just submit to the teaching” is not as clear-cut as it seems to you.

Imagine you have 4 kids. You are raising them a certain way, and you do not believe in corporal punishment. It’s working out well and your kids are great.

You wake up one day and find out that there is a Church teaching you never knew about. The Church teaches that Proverbs 13:24 (the old “spare the rod, spoil the child” adage) means that each day, you must start the day out by administering a very sound beating to your children and end each day the same way. You find out that NOT following his teaching is grave matter according to the Church and apparently this has long been a teaching of the Church that you were unaware of.

Now, you also find out that EVERYONE, no matter the circumstances, is required to do this to all o their kids every day. Now some children have brittle bone disease and this will kill them, but the Church maintains that there are never, under any circumstances, any exceptions to this rule. This rule will never change, and if some children die as a result, well, that is God’s will and we need to leave that up to Him.

Would you believe in this teaching? Is this consistent with anything you were taught to believe about God and Jesus? Would you find this teaching abhorrent and immoral? Would you follow it anyway if you did just because the Church said so?

This is how I feel about he Church’s stance on ABC, especially where the life of he mother is at stake. I find it immoral and wrong, which throws the whole teaching into question for me. Even if I am willig to follow it for myself, I find it unconscionable that a woman who will DIE if she has another baby is forbidden from being sterilized under pain of mortal sin. It makes me sick.

Anyway, I was just hoping to shed some light in my FEELINGS about the matter to see if anyone here could honestly agree with and follow a teaching he/she found to be so repugnant to their own conscience just because the Church said so? How am I supposed to reconcile these feelings?

 

[joclucsylv]

You don’t support your daughter’s bad decision and become an accomplice in her sin. By discussing birth control, you are giving her a green light. By telling her that she should not be having sex until she is married and supervising her activities, you are giving her time to make the correct decision and teaching her right from wrong.

Also, what 16 year old girl doesn’t already know about bc and how to get it?

If my daughter was to become pregnant, I would be there to help raise my grandchild. Every child is a blessing.

I tell my boys that anytime you decide to have sex there is a chance of being a daddy.

Yup. I see your point. You wouldn’t support your daughter’s bad decision for having sex, but would pray that she is using some sort of birthcontrol so she doesn’t become pregnant.

Yes…in my area of the world a 12 year old girl can walk into a clinic run by federal money and be put on the pill without the consent of the parents. Many of you won’t believe that but it is true…very sad, but true!!!

 

[1ke]

So your child would get pregnant at 16. 1ke…I don’t get that.

You act as if that is the end of the world. It isn’t.

If a child commits a sin, you continue to help them form their conscience and correct their behavior. You help them come back to the Lord. You don’t help them sin.

 

[1ke]

And your daughter gets pregnant and has to raise a child at 16 years old. NICE!!!

I would encourage adoption.

I don’t expect any of you to admit that you would tell your daughters to protect themselves. You all have a reputation to keep on this board.

I can’t give you any answer other than the truth. I would never encourage or tell my child to commit a mortal sin. I would tell them the Truth. If they ignored the Truth, I would help them to recover from whatever situation they find themselves in.

Teach the truth in love and model it in all I do. That’s what a parent is called to do. Not lie to their children and encourage them to commit mortal sins.

 

[1ke]

The teaching of the Church is that I can never, ever take having more kids off the table, no matter how sick, tired, depressed, etc. I may be.

This simply is not true.

With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time. *Humanae Vitae *

Like I said, I always and forever have to be open to more children

Each act of intercourse must be per se ordered to procreation and unity. Intercourse during the infertile period is.

I don’t want to “space” them. I never want to have another one, ever again

That would be spacing.

No, I have to be willing to let my life be ruined and to be willing to throw my education, my dreams and my own values that I have for MY FAMILY down the drain if I happen to get pregnant again.

The Church doesn’t ask you to get pregnant again if you and your spouse believe you have a serious reason not to.

If I don’t believe it cam from God, why would I do hat?

Because it comes from the Church, and you are required to.

I don’t have any problems bonding with my children. My son is the best thing hat has ever happened to me and I love him more than I could have ever imagined. Hopefully, I will bond with his one as well. I just don’t want any more of them. I am very self-aware and I know my limitations.

Then I misunderstood what you wrote.

But your statement above that your ENTIRE LIFE would be RUINED by another child really leads me to believe you do have underlying problems that counseling might help.

 

[1ke]

This is how I feel about he Church’s stance on ABC, especially where the life of he mother is at stake. I find it immoral and wrong, which throws the whole teaching into question for me. Even if I am willig to follow it for myself, I find it unconscionable that a woman who will DIE if she has another baby is forbidden from being sterilized under pain of mortal sin. It makes me sick.

You persist in the absolutely false dichotomy that it is either contraception or death.

Natural family planning is an alternative to complete abstinence, not to contracpetion and sterilization. Complete abstinence can be chosen if needed.

Anyway, I was just hoping to shed some light in my FEELINGS about the matter to see if anyone here could honestly agree with and follow a teaching he/she found to be so repugnant to their own conscience just because the Church said so? How am I supposed to reconcile these feelings?

Continue to study because the Church doesn’t ask women to die and doens’t require YOU to have more children. She asks that* if and when *you have sex with your husband you do so in the way God designed it and do not profane it.

 

[1ke]

but would pray that she is using some sort of birthcontrol so she doesn’t become pregnant.

No, no, no.

I would not offend God in such a way.

 

[cviolette]

Yup. I see your point. You wouldn’t support your daughter’s bad decision for having sex, but would pray that she is using some sort of birthcontrol so she doesn’t become pregnant.

Yes…in my area of the world a 12 year old girl can walk into a clinic run by federal money and be put on the pill without the consent of the parents. Many of you won’t believe that but it is true…very sad, but true!!!

I would pray that she does not have sex with the boy. I would also have a little talk with the boy and his parents. My daughter is only 13 but we have had many discussions on sex and birth control. She has also come with me to protest in front of planned parenthood. She understands the risk of sex and that abortion is murder. I have also told her that planned parenthood gives low dose bc so that you do get pregnant because they make money off killing babies. She has asked many questions.

As a 13 year old, she gets to meet with her doctor privately. Her doctor is an Orthodox Catholic that I see in church all the time.

We probably live in the same state. When I protested last week at PPH there were cars from the 3 neighboring states. Very sad that my state is so pro abortion that we get out of state people.

I am no saint. I have made many mistakes and would like to protect my daughter from making the same mistakes. I went on bc at 16 years old. I hit the double digits for sexual partners before getting married. With bc, sex becomes very easy. I was not protected or sheltered but my kids are.

 

[LaSainte]

You persist in the absolutely false dichotomy that it is either contraception or death.

Natural family planning is an alternative to complete abstinence, not to contracpetion and sterilization. Complete abstinence can be chosen if needed.

Continue to study because the Church doesn’t ask women to die and doens’t require YOU to have more children. She asks that* if and when *you have sex with your husband you do so in the way God designed it and do not profane it.

I think if your life is at stake and you have children, the moral choice is to be sterilized, period. NFP and ABC are far too risky and total abstinence in a marriage is ridiculous and even immoral.

THAT is what I mean by taking having more kids off the table. I mean forever, with no chance of having more barring a miracle. So no, the Church does not permit that.

 

[LaSainte]

This simply is not true.

With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time. *Humanae Vitae *

Each act of intercourse must be per se ordered to procreation and unity. Intercourse during the infertile period is.

That would be spacing.

The Church doesn’t ask you to get pregnant again if you and your spouse believe you have a serious reason not to.

Because it comes from the Church, and you are required to.

Then I misunderstood what you wrote.

But your statement above that your ENTIRE LIFE would be RUINED by another child really leads me to believe you do have underlying problems that counseling might help.

I love it. I must have psychological problems because having 6 kids sounds like my worst nightmare. THIS is what is so annoying. Not ALL women want to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. SOME women want to travel and work and study and write and be scientists and even be anthropologists and live among and study native people, or whatever. Some women’s talents and attributes don’t coincide with having a huge family and some people would be destroyed by it. Typical one-size-fits-all mentality.

Still, not one person has answered my question as to what they would do if they woke up and found out there was a Catholic teaching as offensive and immoral as I find the total ban on ABC. I WONDER WHY?

 

[sw85]

I love it. I must have psychological problems because having 6 kids sounds like my worst nightmare. THIS is what is so annoying. Not ALL women want to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. SOME women want to travel and work and study and write and be scientists and even be anthropologists and live among and study native people, or whatever. Some women’s talents and attributes don’t coincide with having a huge family and some people would be destroyed by it. Typical one-size-fits-all mentality.

Still, not one person has answered my question as to what they would do if they woke up and found out there was a Catholic teaching as offensive and immoral as I find the total ban on ABC. I WONDER WHY?

Once again, I cannot imagine God caring for your worldly ambitions or for your sex life. To the extent that they are obstacles to your more perfectly knowing and loving Him, it is very likely that He hates them and would rather you kill them.

I do not mean to be harsh or judgmental but frankly all I hear you saying is “me, me, me.” You are not prepared to give up on your worldly desires. And you are not prepared to give up on your marital sex life, even though the only licit way to enjoy it would result in disaster for your family. This is profoundly selfish; to some extent it is even profoundly disordered. It is coming dangerously close to rejecting the legitimate sovereignty of God and of the Church in your life.

Is it possible that you are simply unaware of the natural law basis for the Church’s teachings re: contraception? If so, I would be happy to rectify it for you – I have been familiarizing myself with the classical and scholastic basis for the Church’s teachings the last several weeks and I feel reasonably confident that I can communicate it sufficiently. The problem, when you say that you find the teaching offensive, is that it follows logically from natural law, and natural law is the basis for EVERYTHING the Church teaches about how to live a good and Christ-like life. I would go so far as to say that to reject that teaching is to in fact reject the Church. It would behoove you to at least familiarize yourself with it extensively before risking your soul to do so.

 

[PRmerger]

The teaching of the Church is that I can never, ever take having more kids off the table, no matter how sick, tired, depressed, etc. I may be. Like I said, I always and forever have to be open to more children.

Firstly, LaSainte, if you could not nest your posts that would be helpful. Please see this post to learn how to post so others can respond to your nested comments more readily.

Secondly, you are arguing against a teaching that, apparently, you have great ignorance about. The CC does* not* state that “no matter how sick, tired, depressed, etc. I may be” that you must have a baby. As if!

Perhaps your violent feelings against the Church’s teachings result from, well, not even knowing what she teaches and why?

I suspect that if you had to present the Church’s teaching and apologia for it, you would barely be able to type out a paragraph?

I hope I am wrong…but I don’t think so.

 

[1ke]

I love it. I must have psychological problems because having 6 kids sounds like my worst nightmare. THIS is what is so annoying. Not ALL women want to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. SOME women want to travel and work and study and write and be scientists and even be anthropologists and live among and study native people, or whatever. Some women’s talents and attributes don’t coincide with having a huge family and some people would be destroyed by it. Typical one-size-fits-all mentality.

NO ONE has stated you must, or SHOULD, have 6 kids or any other number of kids nor that the Church requires you to. I’ve **repeatedly **said just the opposite.

I only commented that if you **truly **believe doing so would “RUIN YOUR LIFE” then yes there **could **be something underlying that that would be healthy to investigate.

I think you have some issues-- or at least many years of feminist brainwashing-- based on your statements that you don’t believe you can have kids and a career or a fulfilling life. That may be true for you, but it is very sad if it is true. Many, many women have both. It’s just a FALSE premise to state that a woman who has a family must necessarily be “barefoot and pregnant” or relegated to the “kitchen.” That is REPUGNANT and a fallacious and illogical argument. If you cannot argue logically, we can never get anywhere.

There are MANY examples of women who have been successful AND mothers.

Still, not one person has answered my question as to what they would do if they woke up and found out there was a Catholic teaching as offensive and immoral as I find the total ban on ABC. I WONDER WHY?

Your analogy is nonsensical.

The Church’s teaching on contraception is neither irrational nor immoral.

 

[1ke]

total abstinence in a marriage is ridiculous and even immoral.

God asks us to be faithful to his commandments. That does require sacrifice sometimes. God’s law can never be immoral.

 

[cviolette]

I love it. I must have psychological problems because having 6 kids sounds like my worst nightmare. THIS is what is so annoying. Not ALL women want to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. SOME women want to travel and work and study and write and be scientists and even be anthropologists and live among and study native people, or whatever. Some women’s talents and attributes don’t coincide with having a huge family and some people would be destroyed by it. Typical one-size-fits-all mentality.

Still, not one person has answered my question as to what they would do if they woke up and found out there was a Catholic teaching as offensive and immoral as I find the total ban on ABC. I WONDER WHY?

Your example was not a good one because it forced you to hurt someone (beat your child). The church does not force us to do anything harmful to other people.

I can give an example of a struggle in my life. I am miserable in my marriage but have no valid reason to divorce my husband. I should have never married him. I was not in a good place in my life to make the decision. When I think about my marriage, I sometimes get angry. Why do I have to stay? Does God want me to be miserable for the rest of my life? Is it fair to my husband that he is stuck with me for a wife? It is probably an invalid marriage. Then I get stubborn. I stop wanting to follow God’s plan but come up with my own plan. Like I could possible have a better plan than God.

When I pray at adoration about my marriage, I always get the same answer. I need to stay. When I get it in my head that I am going to leave my husband anyway, I am not at peace. When the decision is right, I feel very peaceful about it. I am back to trying to make the marriage work and I am not as angry and confused. Still unhappy. God may just be saying not yet. Maybe, I will be able to leave when the kids are older. That’s how I look at it. I live my live one day at a time. Trying to follow what God wants.

Do you go to adoration? It is the perfect place to make important decisions. But you need to believe in the Real Presence and Trust God.

 

[PRmerger]

If a child commits a sin, you continue to help them form their conscience and correct their behavior. You help them come back to the Lord. You don’t help them sin.

Indeed. You don’t let them drink poison, saying, “Well, she insists that she wants to! What can I do? At least I know she’ll have some milk of magnesia in her stomach. That gives me peace of mind. And giving her that bottle of MofMag makes me feel like I’m a good mom.” :whacky:

 

[LaSainte]

Firstly, LaSainte, if you could not nest your posts that would be helpful. Please see this post to learn how to post so others can respond to your nested comments more readily.

Secondly, you are arguing against a teaching that, apparently, you have great ignorance about. The CC does* not* state that “no matter how sick, tired, depressed, etc. I may be” that you must have a baby. As if!

Perhaps your violent feelings against the Church’s teachings result from, well, not even knowing what she teaches and why?

I suspect that if you had to present the Church’s teaching and apologia for it, you would barely be able to type out a paragraph?

I hope I am wrong…but I don’t think so.

I am fully aware of the teaching. Your choices are: NFP, abstinence, or death.

 

[PRmerger]

I am fully aware of the teaching.

Could you then type out one paragraph, at least, of the Church’s teaching and why she teaches that artificial birth control is wrong? (Using, of course, your own words, so we can see that you are indeed "fully aware of the teaching.)

I am fully prepared to say I was wrong, and that which you violently reject you are fully informed on.

But I suspect that your apologia will be quite lacking, simply based on your posts here about what you believe the CC teaches.

 

[LaSainte]

Once again, I cannot imagine God caring for your worldly ambitions or for your sex life. To the extent that they are obstacles to your more perfectly knowing and loving Him, it is very likely that He hates them and would rather you kill them.

I do not mean to be harsh or judgmental but frankly all I hear you saying is “me, me, me.” You are not prepared to give up on your worldly desires. And you are not prepared to give up on your marital sex life, even though the only licit way to enjoy it would result in disaster for your family. This is profoundly selfish; to some extent it is even profoundly disordered. It is coming dangerously close to rejecting the legitimate sovereignty of God and of the Church in your life.

Is it possible that you are simply unaware of the natural law basis for the Church’s teachings re: contraception? If so, I would be happy to rectify it for you – I have been familiarizing myself with the classical and scholastic basis for the Church’s teachings the last several weeks and I feel reasonably confident that I can communicate it sufficiently. The problem, when you say that you find the teaching offensive, is that it follows logically from natural law, and natural law is the basis for EVERYTHING the Church teaches about how to live a good and Christ-like life. I would go so far as to say that to reject that teaching is to in fact reject the Church. It would behoove you to at least familiarize yourself with it extensively before risking your soul to do so.

Natural law is something people apply when they feel like it and ignore when it suits them.

If I have 6 kids and will die if I have another one, the ONLY sensical, logical, moral thing to do is become sterilized. The very idea that I would not do this because of the idea that “sex was made for making babies” when it is a simple outpatient procedure that would save my life and harm no-one and help my marriage at he same time is absurd. The only thing more absurd is thinking that God would actually have a problem win this.

 

[LaSainte]

Could you then type out one paragraph, at least, of the Church’s teaching and why she teaches that artificial birth control is wrong? (Using, of course, your own words, so we can see that you are indeed "fully aware of the teaching.)

I am fully prepared to say I was wrong, and that which you violently reject you are fully informed on.

But I suspect that your apologia will be quite lacking, simply based on your posts here about what you believe the CC teaches.

Sex should be both unitive and procreative. The lovemaking between husband and wife involves a creativity between the spouses and God that is representative of the Trinity. It is a creative and PROcreative love that withholds nothing. Just as Christ, God and the Holy Spirit withhold nothing from each other in their unity, neither should the husband or wife withhold their fertility from one another during lovemaking, thereby shutting God Himself out.

Unless sex is BOTH unitive (bonding) AND procreative (open to the potential for the creation of human life), it is not a licit act and goes against every ing God intended for he marital embrace.

NFP is licit because it does nothing to alter the martial act itself, either before, during or after the fact. Such is not the case with condoms, the pill, IUDs, sterilization, etc. NFP utilizes our natural, God-given fertility cycles and our abiliy to predict fertility to enable us to abstain from sex on fertile days if we have serious reasons for not wanting to conceive. Wih NFP, no “action” is undertaken to prevent the fertilization of the egg and periodic abstinence has never been sinful (read St. Paul for an early mention of it), therefore, NFP in no way goes against the unitive or procreative nature of sex as it was intended and neither spouse is rejecting or withholding fertility in any way.

That is not to say that NFP can never be sinful. If practiced for selfish reasons or with a “contraceptive mentality”, it can be sinful. The church gives examples of valid reasons for the use of NFP but essentially leaves it up to the couple to prayerfully discern if they need to use NFP to space heir children.

When sex is used in the proper way, man and wife open themselves up to becoming “co-creators” with God. Artificial contraception attempts to cut God out of this equation and is gravely sinful.

See Casti Connubii(sp?), Humanae Vitae, Theology of the Body or even the writings of Christopher West for the Church’s position on the matter.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

I could go on, but this is just what I came up with off the top of my head.