Sterilization followed by confession?

[joclucsylv]

I started a thread on this long ago. Too often people think because they don’t feel sorry that their confessions aren’t valid. Then they stop going to confession all together. It’s very sad, because they don’t realize that feeling sorry isn’t required at all.

I think it has been posted on this thread and I THINK it was by littleone ( I am to tired to look for it) that you can’t be absolved of your sins if you aren’t sorry. Is she right?

Also, noone has answered my question that I posted earlier.

If a couple decides that 2 kids is enough (perhaps for selfish reasons of career or that they just plain out don’t want anymore) is it sinful if they use NFP throughout their whole fertile lives? Is it mortal sin?

 

[Corki]

I think it has been posted on this thread and I THINK it was by littleone ( I am to tired to look for it) that you can’t be absolved of your sins if you aren’t sorry. Is she right?

Your sins aren’t absolved if you don’t have contrition for them. If you go to Confession and just give lip service to acknowledging them, that can invalidate your sins. In the old form, it was common to say “I convict myself of the following sins…” It’s about knowing what you did was wrong and acknowledging that you shouldn’t have done it.

I know some people here hate it when the Catechim is quoted but please indulge me (bolding mine)

Contrition

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

For a valid Confession, it is enough to know that what you did was wrong and that you don’t want to go to Hell.

Also, noone has answered my question that I posted earlier.

If a couple decides that 2 kids is enough (perhaps for selfish reasons of career or that they just plain out don’t want anymore) is it sinful if they use NFP throughout their whole fertile lives? Is it mortal sin?

No one can give you a straight “yes” or “no” answer on that. NFP can be used sinfully (for selfish reasons) but wanting to pursue a career or deciding that the size of your family is “big enough” is not necessarily selfish.

One of the blessings (I know, another word that make some people go nuts) of NFP is that you have the chance to evulate your motives on a regular basis. What might be a serious reason when you are 30 may not seem so serious when you are 35. An example of that might be your career. Having another child might have more serious career implications at different stages of that career. Or after a dozen years, the appeal of the career might be wearing off and having a child doesn’t seem so disruptive.

It’s a decision that only you and your spouse, together with a good Spiritual Director, if you are lucky, can make with prayer and trust.

 

[Calliso]

IMOHO, there is a difference between a couple who can’t have relations because they can’t either due to a physical limitation or due to threat of disease transmission, and not being able to or else an unwanted pregnancy will occur. I know very very few people who would have serious issue with not being able to have relations with their spouse because their spouse physically couldn’t do to illness, etc. But when there aren’t those barriers, it’s a tougher issue if both are not on board with NFP or extended abstinence. And by “both not on board with NFP”, I don’t mean that both have decided that it’s not the right time for another child. In the situation I am referring to, it’s a given that both spouses don’t want another child for whatever reason, at that time. What I mean by “both not on board with NFP” is that either or both don’t want to use NFP or extended abstinence.

Let’s be honest. When NFP is not a stumbling block for people, and both are on board with its usage, it’s just not an issue. Sex with one’s spouse doesn’t become that important when this particular teaching is not a stumbling block. But when it is a stumbling block for people, and either or both are not on board with it’s usage, it can destroy a marriage. That’s just a fact of life. We can agree or disagree with the rules of the Church, and we can either buy or not buy the rationales they have come up with for their rules. But the fact is, some folks have no problem with this teaching and some do. Some need the physical bond that come with sex with their spouse, and some can give it up easily for a while. Not everyone is the same.

.

Exactly well said!

 

[1ke]

I think it has been posted on this thread and I THINK it was by littleone ( I am to tired to look for it) that you can’t be absolved of your sins if you aren’t sorry. Is she right?

Yes, she is.

CCC 1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is “sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again.”

and Canon Law;

Can. 987 To receive the salvific remedy of the sacrament of penance, a member of the Christian faithful must be disposed in such a way that, rejecting sins committed and having a purpose of amendment, the person is turned back to God.

If a couple decides that 2 kids is enough (perhaps for selfish reasons of career or that they just plain out don’t want anymore) is it sinful if they use NFP throughout their whole fertile lives? Is it mortal sin?

Engaging in unaltered sexual intercourse with your spouse is objectively ordered to procreation, therefore it cannot be an intrinsically immoral act. So, “NFP” cannot be deemed sinful per se.

The *setting of their will *against children could be a sin if this disposition fails to conform to objective moral criteria. So, yes, that itself **could **be a sin against the theological virtue of charity. Whether it is mortal or venial depends upon factors previously mentioned including knowledge and will.

See here:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6B.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

And:

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.

Above is the Catechism quoting Gaudium Et Spes 51 #3. I would recommend reading all of Chapter 1:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

It was asked…Can NFP be sinful?

Yes for example the misuse of NFP…can be sinful…when done for inadequate reasons.

Like one want say to live some life of luxury…without having to take care of Children… as an extreme example.

(see the summary that follows on when it is moral…that is not sinful to use NFP-- “periodic continence and use of the infertile periods”)

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

has a nice summary…

1. What are the goods of conjugal love to which sexuality is ordered?

2360-2361
2397-2398

The goods of conjugal love, which for those who are baptized is sanctified by the sacrament of Matrimony, are unity, fidelity, indissolubility, and an openness to the procreation of life.

1. What is the meaning of the conjugal act?

2362-2367

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.

497. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[sw85]

Yes, she is.

CCC 1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is “sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again.”

and Canon Law;

Can. 987 To receive the salvific remedy of the sacrament of penance, a member of the Christian faithful must be disposed in such a way that, rejecting sins committed and having a purpose of amendment, the person is turned back to God.

Engaging in unaltered sexual intercourse with your spouse is objectively ordered to procreation, therefore it cannot be an intrinsically immoral act. So, “NFP” cannot be deemed sinful per se.

The *setting of their will *against children could be a sin if this disposition fails to conform to objective moral criteria. So, yes, that itself **could **be a sin against the theological virtue of charity. Whether it is mortal or venial depends upon factors previously mentioned including knowledge and will.

See here:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6B.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

And:

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.

Above is the Catechism quoting Gaudium Et Spes 51 #3. I would recommend reading all of Chapter 1:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

Good post. I would add, however, that I don’t think the sorrow required for confession is not an emotional sorrow in the sense of a state of physiological arousal. It sorrow “of the spirit,” more appropriately, a will: a recognition that wrong was done; a submission to God’s will; and a resolution to conform to the Church’s teachings in the future.

It is very hard, I think, to really instantiate this kind of sorrow when one retains as a principle the belief that the Church’s legitimate teaching was wrong, and as a result of this belief embarked on the sin in question in obstinance and full awareness of the gravity of the sin. Reconciliation would require a repudiation of that erroneous belief and, to the extent possible, rectification of the error.

I could be wrong on this of course. I am very much a novice to this whole thing.

 

[Bookcat]

For a valid Confession, it is enough to know that what you did was wrong and that you don’t want to go to Hell.

It is not be noted that one must be contrite…which may not involve emotions as one may like…but it does involve the despising of the sin basically…(see CCC 1451 ) (which involves choice…the will )

one can not get sterilized and not repent (still think it was wonderful that they did it…) and think one can just go to confession…

But with grace…there can be true repentance.

(I know this is known…but it is good to bring out in a vivid way)

 

[PRmerger]

Having your uterus removed would do the trick. 100% effective.

Oh.my.GOSH! :bigyikes:

Run–don’t walk--away as fast as you can, LaSainte, if any surgeon/gyn offers to remove your uterus because you don’t want to have more children.

Any physician who removes a healthy uterus from a woman who has no disease, but simply wishes to be sterile, will have his license taken away.

Again, DO NOT ALLOW HIM/HER NEAR YOU!!!

 

[PRmerger]

Well good Lord of course I don’t believe in abortion. It is murder. Sick.

Well, then,

Not sure why you added the “of course”, as if it’s a given that you would.

It’s actually more reasonable to assume that you support abortion, as it’s the natural consequence of your paradigm that each and every couple is entitled to have sex without a baby ever appearing in the picture.

Was it you that spoke of contingency plans?

What, then, will be your contingency plan if you get pregnant with Baby #3, and can’t have an abortion, given your extreme abhorrence to the concept of 3 children and certainty that this would ruin your life.

 

[LaSainte]

Well, then,

Not sure why you added the “of course”, as if it’s a given that you would.

It’s actually more reasonable to assume that you support abortion, as it’s the natural consequence of your paradigm that each and every couple is entitled to have sex without a baby ever appearing in the picture.

Was it you that spoke of contingency plans?

What, then, will be your contingency plan if you get pregnant with Baby #3, and can’t have an abortion, given your extreme abhorrence to the concept of 3 children and certainty that this would ruin your life.

I don’t think 3 would RUIN my life. 3 is my ultimate maximum before the total destruction of my life and hopes and dreams

At 4 I would crawl under a rock and probably just drool into a cup for the rest of my days.

And yes, I am against abortion. I may disagree with a single teaching(the total ban on contraception) but I’m still a Catholic.

I have no contingency plans for a 4th. After the 3rd I would most likely have my tubes tied anyway after having so many c-sections. If that failed, I would just resign myself to living a life that is the complete antithesis to everyhing I ever wanted for my family. Maybe have a baby cage match to see who gets to go to college

 

[sw85]

I don’t think 3 would RUIN my life. 3 is my ultimate maximum before the total destruction of my life and hopes and dreams

At 4 I would crawl under a rock and probably just drool into a cup for the rest of my days.

**And yes, I am against abortion. I may disagree with a single teaching(the total ban on contraception) but I’m still a Catholic. **

I have no contingency plans for a 4th. After the 3rd I would most likely have my tubes tied anyway after having so many c-sections. If that failed, I would just resign myself to living a life that is the complete antithesis to everyhing I ever wanted for my family. Maybe have a baby cage match to see who gets to go to college

With regards to the section I bolded – how do you derive a prohibition on abortion if you reject the natural law basis for its prohibition on contraception?

This is what I have been trying to stress: to reject its teaching on contraception is not to reject only its teaching on contraception, but to reject all its teachings on sexual morality in general. It is, in a very meaningful sense, to reject the natural order which God has ordained for the world.

As for college – I wouldn’t worry about that. College tuition costs will be coming down very soon.

 

[PRmerger]

I have no contingency plans for a 4th.

This is unfortunate, esp. given your statement below.

We shoot for the ideal, but we have to have contingency plans.

 

[LaSainte]

It is not be noted that one must be contrite…which may not involve emotions as one may like…but it does involve the despising of the sin basically…(see CCC 1451 ) (which involves choice…the will )

one can not get sterilized and not repent (still think it was wonderful that they did it…) and think one can just go to confession…

But with grace…there can be true repentance.

(I know this is known…but it is good to bring out in a vivid way)

I talked to a priest at my last confession about my lack of contrition, about how I still looked back sort of fondly at my past (my hard-partying ways, pre-marital sex with my now husband, etc.) and how I was having a really hard time regretting the things I had done when they made me the person I am.

He told me not to dwell on it, that I had turned my life around and was making a real effort to turn away from sin and that was the important thing. He absolved me, so I guess I simply have to trust in he Lord’s mercy that I am indeed forgiven even if I didn’t feel that I was sufficiently contrite.

 

[LaSainte]

You’re welcome! Thanks for sharing and sorry I took so long to respond, I am just now getting caught up on this thread.

Unfortunately, this is a common problem. Many Catholics have been very poorly catechized. This isn’t your fault, but kudos to you for taking initiative to catechize yourself!

For what it’s worth, my Mom is a mother of 6 and currently has two masters. She is starting to pick her career back up since she is about to become an empty nest Mom. Being a mom certainly interferes with your career, but really it just postpones it until later in life.

If you don’t mind me asking, why can’t you use NFP? The reasons you state are all about not wanting a lot of kids, but you can use NFP and only have 2 kids just as well as ABC. I’m confused as to why you feel the need to sterilize / use ABC.

A few things that I find helpful when I struggle with a Church teaching:

1. Get a spiritual director. And meet with him every month, no exceptions. You’ll be amazed how quickly you’ll grow in faith and holiness. If you don’t already have one, get one.
2. Frequent Confession / Communion. Start going to confession once a week (if you are not doing so already. Going to confession regularly forces us to take more stock of our sins, sometimes when we let go too long before we confess, we unknowingly start to become blinded by our sins (even just venial sins). Daily mass will also do wonders for you. Receiving Communion every day absolutely helps!
3. Pray the rosary every day. The Rosary is like a spiritual weapon of mass destruction. It eradicates sin and helps us fall deeply in love with Christ. If we could all love Christ as Mary loves Christ, there wouldn’t be any sin!
4. Spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Spend at least 5 minutes every day with the Lord. Ask Him to help you understand the Church’s teaching, or just vent your frustrations, I think you’ll find that helpful. If possible, try and do a Holy Hour once a week as well.

Finally, sometimes I think God deliberately hides full knowledge of the Truth from us so that we can learn to love Him even without intellectual assent. I have a friend that recently married and confided in me that she just plain doesn’t get the Church’s position on ABC. But, she told me, she still follows it because she does believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. I think what she is doing was a great act of faith and love to God and a powerful witness. It’s a beautiful thing to experience. Perhaps this is why Our Lord said to the doubting Thomas “Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe”. It truly is a beautiful thing.

No problem, thanks for sharing! Sorry I took so long to respond, I hope I was able to help you in some way. I’ll be sure to keep you in my prayers!

Thank you for this post. To answer your question, I CAN use NFP, I just don’t trust it at all and I am terrified that I will have an “oops”.

Maybe you’re right and God is hiding the truth from me in a way, or at least, making it difficult for me to accept that truth to test my obedience.

I like some of your suggestions. I do need to pray the rosary more, and soon I am planning to start the devotion for the first five Saturdays, so I hope Mary will pray for me and help me with my struggles.

I so appreciate how thoughtful your responses have been and how kind and even motivating some of your points have been

 

[LaSainte]

Is it possible to be sorry for offending God, yet not being sorry for the sin iteself? For example, someone who has offended God by giving into temptation and had premarital sex, and even further, has become pregnant due to that moment of weakness…isn’t it possible that they may be very sorry for offending God, for breaking a rule of the Church ---- but then, certainly…how could they be sorry for conceiving a child? And are they truly sorry for actually having premarital sex? Nine months later they might be actually happy as a pig in poo that they were weak at that moment nine months ago when they sinned and broke the rules.

Boy Rence, I have struggled with this as well. People have told me that you can regret the sin but no the outcome, but for me they are generally inextricably connected. I don’t understand he idea that contrition is an act of will.

 

[PRmerger]

Ike, if inthought this teaching came from God, all my problems would be solved. This is NOT about me rejecting God. Not at all.

Anything you know about God comes from the Church.

Unless you are proposing that God has revealed something to you specifically…

And if this is the case, then you are really at a bad place to be able to spread the Good News. Any kind of immorality can be justified in the name of “God revealed to me personally that I can…” fill in the blank: cheat on my wife…abort this child…disobey the drinking age…ignore your curfew…not eat my vegetables…drive on your lawn…come into your house and eat all your strawberries…

 

[LaSainte]

With regards to the section I bolded – how do you derive a prohibition on abortion if you reject the natural law basis for its prohibition on contraception?

This is what I have been trying to stress: to reject its teaching on contraception is not to reject only its teaching on contraception, but to reject all its teachings on sexual morality in general. It is, in a very meaningful sense, to reject the natural order which God has ordained for the world.

As for college – I wouldn’t worry about that. College tuition costs will be coming down very soon.

Easy. Abortion is taking a human life and snuffing it out. This is completely different from preventing a sperm from reaching an egg.

 

[sw85]

Easy. Abortion is taking a human life and snuffing it out. This is completely different from preventing a sperm from reaching an egg.

It is not completely different, though. They derive from the same principle: that it is good for man to live according to his essence; that his essence is dictated by the ends which his various faculties serve; and that the end which the human sexual configuration serves is to produce new life. Hence, no contraception, no sterilization, no abortion, no masturbation, no sodomy – only inherently procreative sex, abstinence, or sin.

By attacking natural law’s application to one teaching you don’t like you make the rest of those teachings negotiable.

 

[LaSainte]

Anything you know about God comes from the Church.

Unless you are proposing that God has revealed something to you specifically…

And if this is the case, then you are really at a bad place to be able to spread the Good News. Any kind of immorality can be justified in the name of “God revealed to me personally that I can…” fill in the blank: cheat on my wife…abort this child…disobey the drinking age…ignore your curfew…not eat my vegetables…drive on your lawn…come into your house and eat all your strawberries…

I disagree. I think God reveals Himself to all of us in different ways. If It weren’t possible to have a somewhat personal relationship with God and Jesus and Mary, then what would be the point of even praying or talking to God? The Church doesn’t have a mandate on everything God-related. Jesus wanted us to call him Father for a reason.