Sterilization followed by confession?

[LaSainte]

It is not completely different, though. They derive from the same principle: that it is good for man to live according to his essence; that his essence is dictated by the ends which his various faculties serve; and that the end which the human sexual configuration serves is to produce new life. Hence, no contraception, no sterilization, no abortion, no masturbation, no sodomy – only inherently procreative sex, abstinence, or sin.

By attacking natural law’s application to one teaching you don’t like you make the rest of those teachings negotiable.

This is not the rationale I use or have when contemplating abortion. It has nothing to do with man’s “essence” for me or with the purpose of the sexual faculties It follows the Golden Rule. A fetus is a person and we are not to harm other living human beings, period. Every human has a soul given to him by God. So I am against abortion and the death penalty as well.

Personally, I think the world could benefit from a lot more people following the voluntary human extinction movement…but that’s another argument altogether.

 

[LaSainte]

This is unfortunate, esp. given your statement below.

Hence my anxiety.

 

[PRmerger]

I disagree. I think God reveals Himself to all of us in different ways.

Again, if this is your paradigm, then when your best friend’s husband cheats on her and he justifies it with “God revealed to me that I should be with my co-worker” what will you say?

If It weren’t possible to have a somewhat personal relationship with God and Jesus and Mary, then what would be the point of even praying or talking to God?

Right. And if Mary reveals anything to you that’s contrary to what the Church teaches, run away as fast as you can!

The Church doesn’t have a mandate on everything God-related. Jesus wanted us to call him Father for a reason.

LOL! And how do you know Jesus wanted us to call God Father???

wait for it…

wait for it…

You know because

*the **Church *revealed this to you.

You would not know it any other way, LaSainte.

 

[Little_One0307]

OK…so let’s say my husband and I never ever want another bambino and we use NFP for the rest of our fertile lives is that a sin because I am using NFP to be selfish?

Actually you not wanting to be open to God in giving you a child is questionable. The Sacrament of Marriage calls for the particpants to be open to children. So this is pretty much where it starts to go wrong. Do you trust in the Divine Providence of God to begin with, or do you just figure out what’s best for you? I know that these real life situations are hard, very hard. I respect people who are called to the Sacrament of Marriage and I pray for married couples everyday. The situations that married couples face today are many, but no matter what they face, it does not give them a right to go against Church Teaching.

It goes back to a matter of trusting and having Faith in God. As well as being obedient to him.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

I think it has been posted on this thread and I THINK it was by littleone ( I am to tired to look for it) that you can’t be absolved of your sins if you aren’t sorry. Is she right?

Also, noone has answered my question that I posted earlier.

If a couple decides that 2 kids is enough (perhaps for selfish reasons of career or that they just plain out don’t want anymore) is it sinful if they use NFP throughout their whole fertile lives? Is it mortal sin?

A bit of clarification on my last post. This thread has grown by several pages and thanks be to God I remember it.

Yes I did post that. What I meant is one should feel sorry to make an active consent in their Will to never do the sin again and to realize and admit that it was wrong. Feeling guilty is not what I meant. However when one realizes the gravity of sin, one is filled with sorrow at that sin. I believe I said one must have CONTRITION to be absolved of sin. I found it, it is post #7. For sake of simplicity I quote what I said in that post here. True Contritions and True sorrow moves one to repentance, it is without this that the Sacrament of Reconcilliation cannot be effected.

Sounds like the person is using justification and misusing the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. One must be truly sorry for what they did in order for the Sacrament to be effected. Reading your post, the person is not showing contrition.

They knew it was grave matter, for they knew it went against the Church. They chose to proceed nonetheless. All three conditions for mortal sin are present here.** So no, not without true contrition or firm purpose of amendment they could not be absolved nor could they receive Holy Communion as long as they stayed in their obstinancy in a state of mortal sin.**

God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

Hence my anxiety.

There is a “peace that surpasses understanding”, LaSainte, that is yours for the asking.

When you are in submission to God’s will, you will be released from this anxiety.

 

[Little_One0307]

If a couple decides that 2 kids is enough (perhaps for selfish reasons of career or that they just plain out don’t want anymore) is it sinful if they use NFP throughout their whole fertile lives? Is it mortal sin?

It is showing that the couple is not Trusting nor having Faith in God and His Divine Providence.

Secondly it is showing that they are putting thier will as a couple above the Perfect and Holy Divine Will of Almighty God.

When one does not trust and puts their will above God it can lead to mortal sin.

As to whether the above sitution is a mortal sin, I am not sure, but it is a sin nevertheless because it is based out of selfishness and non trust in God.

God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

Personally, I think the world could benefit from a lot more people following the voluntary human extinction movement…but that’s another argument altogether.

Huh?

 

[sw85]

I disagree. I think God reveals Himself to all of us in different ways. If It weren’t possible to have a somewhat personal relationship with God and Jesus and Mary, then what would be the point of even praying or talking to God? The Church doesn’t have a mandate on everything God-related. Jesus wanted us to call him Father for a reason.

That we are called to have a personal relationship with God does not negate the universality of the order He has ascribed. And the purpose of prayer is to mold your will to God’s, most notably by expressing gratitude that He sustains you in every moment you exist.

This is not the rationale I use or have when contemplating abortion. It has nothing to do with man’s “essence” for me or with the purpose of the sexual faculties It follows the Golden Rule. A fetus is a person and we are not to harm other living human beings, period. Every human has a soul given to him by God. So I am against abortion and the death penalty as well.

Personally, I think the world could benefit from a lot more people following the voluntary human extinction movement…but that’s another argument altogether.

But what is good is not whatever you can rationalize.

Natural law is the order that God has ordained for us. It exists objectively, whether you perceive it or not (though you can perceive it, through careful study and the exercise of reason). And it is the basis on which we are ultimately judged: whether we have hewed to the order God has prescribed for us and so accepted his sovereignty in our lives, or whether we have rebelled against that order and, thus, against Him.

There is literally no other rational basis for the promulgation of morality than natural law – certainly not individuals’ unreliable intuition. Certainly no basis that the Church recognizes. If you reject it, you reject the Church’s teachings in all spheres of your life and you make whatever moral scruples you still cling to a matter of personal taste to be discarded whenever they, too, come to inconvenience you.

I really cannot communicate effectively enough how bad of a path this would be for you to travel.

 

[PRmerger]

FWIW, hardly does not mean there are none.

The person in question has Myasthenia Gravis, Osteo Arthritis, Celiac, and Fibromyalgia at only 32 years old. She was hospitalized 3 times on her 4th pregnancy, after the doctors stressed that she should avoid another pregnancy because she was hospitalized several times on her 3rd one and I believe she was bed-ridden for the last 2-3 months of her pregnancy.

Her husband is a devout christian and a dear friend of mine. I fail to see his decision to become sterile as a mortal sin.

Yipes! Does he know that each and every time he and his wife engage in the marital act, despite his vasectomy, he’s risking the life of his wife!! No surgical snipping is 100% effective, and given his wife’s history, do you really think it’s moral for him to engage in sexual intercourse knowing that this could result in her death?

Really? You find this moral? * “Let me snip my genitals, in the chance that it will perhaps stop a pregnancy, but I know ('cause I signed the papers) that there’s still a chance my wife could get pregnant.”*

 

[Little_One0307]

I talked to a priest at my last confession about my lack of contrition, about how I still looked back sort of fondly at my past (my hard-partying ways, pre-marital sex with my now husband, etc.) and how I was having a really hard time regretting the things I had done when they made me the person I am.

He told me not to dwell on it, that I had turned my life around and was making a real effort to turn away from sin and that was the important thing. He absolved me, so I guess I simply have to trust in he Lord’s mercy that I am indeed forgiven even if I didn’t feel that I was sufficiently contrite.

LaSainte,

IN this case I can see that you had contrition. You are now married and I presume that you are not partying hard.

However, what you referred to above is another situation. Let’s talk about now. All through your posts, you are justifiying in going against the Church Teaching. NOt one time have I seen you even being open or not angry about it. From the first post until now, you are choosing to remain against the Teaching of the Church. Contrition invlolves a turning of the will against ones actions that are contrary to God and His Law and His Church, and a turning to what is God, His Law, and His Church. It involves one realizing that what they are doing is wrong.

Time and time again it has been stated what the Church is teaching. Yet you still persistedly hang on to it and justify it.

You may have been forgiven for the past actions that your post refers to, and I believe it. But in this instance if you choose to live contrary to the Church and to God and continue to justify it, you cannot be forgiven, becuase the contrition is absent.

Contrition has to be present for each sin and thing taken to Confession. From what it sounds like it is not present in this case. And therefore without contrition you cannot be forgiven of this. Hard, I realize it is, but it is Truth.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Easy. Abortion is taking a human life and snuffing it out. This is completely different from preventing a sperm from reaching an egg.

Actually as I have said time and time again, it ultimately goes back to obeying God and disobeying God. Do I follow what He has revealed through His Church or do I follow what I want?

God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re right. We should all be open to having as many children as we happen to conceive. If NFP doesn’t work for us, oh well it was God’s will.

This is curious wording, especially for a Catholic.

[SIGN1]There is no such thing as someone “happening” to conceive.[/SIGN1]

Each and every immortal soul is created at the moment of conception, and is willed by God into existence.

The universe is changed forever at the moment someone “happens to conceive”.

Your phrasing instantiates subtly your lack of belief that God is somehow involved in the marital act perhaps?

 

[LaSainte]

LaSainte,

IN this case I can see that you had contrition. You are now married and I presume that you are not partying hard.

However, what you referred to above is another situation. Let’s talk about now. All through your posts, you are justifiying in going against the Church Teaching. NOt one time have I seen you even being open or not angry about it. From the first post until now, you are choosing to remain against the Teaching of the Church. Contrition invlolves a turning of the will against ones actions that are contrary to God and His Law and His Church, and a turning to what is God, His Law, and His Church. It involves one realizing that what they are doing is wrong.

Time and time again it has been stated what the Church is teaching. Yet you still persistedly hang on to it and justify it.

You may have been forgiven for the past actions that your post refers to, and I believe it. But in this instance if you choose to live contrary to the Church and to God and continue to justify it, you cannot be forgiven, becuase the contrition is absent.

Contrition has to be present for each sin and thing taken to Confession. From what it sounds like it is not present in this case. And therefore without contrition you cannot be forgiven of this. Hard, I realize it is, but it is Truth.

God bless.

Yes, I agree right now that contrition for this would probably be lacking.

 

[LaSainte]

Again, if this is your paradigm, then when your best friend’s husband cheats on her and he justifies it with “God revealed to me that I should be with my co-worker” what will you say?

Right. And if Mary reveals anything to you that’s contrary to what the Church teaches, run away as fast as you can!

LOL! And how do you know Jesus wanted us to call God Father???

wait for it…

wait for it…

You know because

*the **Church ***revealed this to you.

You would not know it any other way, LaSainte.

Are you sayIng that nobody has ever had a private revelation or came to k ow something about God that they hadn’t already learned from the Catholic Church?

 

[LaSainte]

This is curious wording, especially for a Catholic.

[SIGN1]There is no such thing as someone “happening” to conceive.[/SIGN1]

Each and every immortal soul is created at the moment of conception, and is willed by God into existence.

The universe is changed forever at the moment someone “happens to conceive”.

Your phrasing instantiates subtly your lack of belief that God is somehow involved in the marital act perhaps?

Well, in a way. I don’t believe that God creates every person. I believe that He gives every person we create a soul. We create people, animals create animals, etc. Biologically, that’s how God set it up. He ALLOWS us to create people and when we do He gives them souls.

The Church has never really “ruled” on when ensoulment occurrs. It could be at conception, it could be later.

“It seems to be the widely-held belief that ensoulment is at conception but according to Donum Vitae, the “Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature” regarding the matter, even while it affirms, apparently independently of how that question is resolved, abortion’s immorality. Cardinal Martini has opined that an “oocyte at the stage of two pronuclei” is not yet a new human embryo and individual (apparently it doesn’t have its own set of DNA yet at that stage).”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=155970

 

[sw85]

Are you sayIng that nobody has ever had a private revelation or came to k ow something about God that they hadn’t already learned from the Catholic Church?

My understanding is that the Church rejects the doctrine of continuous revelation. God has already said all that needs to be said, and He will not speak again until the Second Coming.

It is possible that He reveals Himself to individual people for whatever purposes He may require. But I do not believe, nor have I heard or read or seen any reason to believe, that He reveals himself to dole out individual exceptions to the law He has made for us.

 

[LaSainte]

My understanding is that the Church rejects the doctrine of continuous revelation. God has already said all that needs to be said, and He will not speak again until the Second Coming.

It is possible that He reveals Himself to individual people for whatever purposes He may require. But I do not believe, nor have I heard or read or seen any reason to believe, that He reveals himself to dole out individual exceptions to the law He has made for us.

I think the Church believes that God has revealed through Jesus and the apostles all that is necessary for our salvation, yes.

 

[PRmerger]

Are you sayIng that nobody has ever had a private revelation or came to k ow something about God that they hadn’t already learned from the Catholic Church?

God’s revelation has been revealed in its entirety, and it is a Person.

So when you “come to know something about God” that is contradiction to that which has already been revealed by the Church, then I suggest you dismiss it.

Now, can you pray that God will reveal to you which path to take, which college to attend, which boyfriend to date? Of course. But if you say that God has revealed to you that he excuses you from that which has already been revealed…not so much.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, in a way. I don’t believe that God creates every person. I believe that He gives every person we create a soul. We create people, animals create animals, etc. Biologically, that’s how God set it up. He ALLOWS us to create people and when we do He gives them souls.

Perhaps. I don’t have any disagreement with this. Thomas Aquinas addressed this as the concepts of God’s antecedent will and consequent will.

Now, are you saying that each and every human person that’s been created was not willed by God? if so, then you and I are going to tussle.

The Church has never really “ruled” on when ensoulment occurrs. It could be at conception, it could be later.

Yes. This is true.